Which Would You Prefer For A DGR???

[Lawdog]

It was asked of me last night and I though it might make a good topic here.  Of the following cartridges, .416 Rigby, .458 Win. Mag., .458 Lott, .450 Rigby, .450 Dakota, .460 Weatherby Mag., or whatever cartridge suits you, which would you prefer in a dangerous game rifle and WHY?  We are not talking rifles here.  Say every cartridge listed were available in the bolt action(we are going to limit this discussion to bolt actions ONLY) rifle of your choice, PF or CRF, doesn't come into play here.

I guess because I am the one that started this I should go first.  Of all my big bores the cartridge that I would choose is the .450 Rigby.  Why?  Well it is right behind the mighty .460 Weatherby in both velocity and energy, but way ahead of the .458 Win. Mag. and the .458 Lott.  It does this at a pressure level that is less than the other dangerous game cartridges listed and many others.  Listed below are some of the pressures posted for a few of the more popular .458 calibers;

From Quickload

.458 Lott
pressure 62,336 psi
case length 2.80
case cap. water 110.0 gr.
remaining capacity after 500 Woodleigh 85.491 gr.

.450 Dakota
pressure 59,465 psi
case length 2.890
case cap. water 137.0 gr.
remaining capacity after 500 Woodleigh 114.573 gr.

.460 Weatherby
pressure 63,816 psi
case length 2.913
case cap. water 141.79 gr.
remaining capacity after 500 Woodleigh 118.54 gr.

.450 Rigby
pressure 47,862 psi
case length 2.902
case cap. water 133.01 gr.
remaining capacity after 500 Woodleigh 110.512 gr.
3.544% less than the .450 Dakota
6.772% less than the .460 Weatherby

It was the history behind the Rigby cartridge along with the low pressure rating that made up my mind to go with the .450 Rigby when I built my Dangerous Game Rifle.  Powerful, Low Pressure and a Great History, a hard to beat the combination.  Lawdog
 

[RaySendero]

I'd take a .375 Weatherby - PH should have one of the above!

[DirtyHarry]

Although the 450 Rigby does make perfect sense, I would (and will) take the 460 Weatherby Magmun.
Why? Well to me it is ultimate caliber for any large/dangerous game on the planet, the numbers are indisputable. Heck, merely mentioning the words "460 weatherby" at the gun club never fails to raise heads. I still must decide on weather to take mine with the muzzle brake,or my dad's (non molested) non muzzle braked one....

[Judson]

Me, I would take the .366DGW, 300 grain bullets at 2900 feet per second 250 grain slugs at a paltry 3250.  Well I am predjudice, since I developed the beast.    Truth be known it would not be my first choice, I would want a bigger bore diameter.    When you take pressure into account I would have to go with the 450 Rigby.   Since we are not talking about an over the counter cartridge then I think the .475 A&M or the .577T Rex or even the .585 Niaty loaded light would be even a better choice.    If you want to talk factory ammo then the choice would have to be the .460 Weatherby.    I am not a Weatherby fan but try to find Lott ammo in Africa.

[Yukon Jack]

I'll just keep my 500 Jeffery, thanks though!

[warf73]

It would be the 460 WBY since I have one and have several hundred rounds for it.

Because I'm very confident with this cartridge

[Yukon Jack]

There's a couple of problems with the 460 Wby as many of the African PH's can attest to.

One, as loaded, the pressure is just too high.  The 63,000 psi quoted above, is for standard temperature.  Use it on a hot day when the rifle and cartridges have reached 100-110*F from being in the sun all day, and there is a greater chance for case failure, sticky or failure to extract.

The Wby MarkV rifle is the only factory rifle available that is chambered for it and the extractor isn't as strong as most would like.  It is push feed also.

Last, the rifle is big and heavy.  Even with this big and heavy rifle, recoil is ferocious, unless a substantial muzzle break is included.  Then you have a bigger and heavier rifle.

I would take a lower pressure load, something like the 450 Rigby, 416 Rigby, 404 Jeffery, 500 Jeffery, 500-465, 470 NE, etc...

[Fla Brian]

I think I'd go with the .450 Howell (in a Mauser, of course). It will fit in a standard length action, and .404 Jefferies to form it from are readily available. It also doesn't have that pesky belt like some DG cartridges do.

[warf73]

I'll take my problems with the 460WBY any day of the week.
As I haven't seen any. But to each his own.

[DirtyHarry]

I have never seen, heard, or read where any of those things have actually happened. As to the weight of the gun, if one is in such poor condition that they cant carry a 10 pound rifle all day I would suggest they not hunt anything that bites back. I ALWAYS hunt with a backpack on me, and the weight is never less than 15lbs and that is in addition to my 8-10lb rifle.
I have never bought into the whole recoil thing either. People fall into one of two categories.. 1. Recoil Tolerant or 2. Non-Recoil Tolerant.
You can handle it or you cant PERIOD. If you can handle it, have fun, if not don't try it. More importantly if one fall's under the non recoil tolerant category don't knock the gun just because you cant handle it....
I think all the calibers listed here are great choices for dangerous game, but the question was which of these calibers suits you and for me it has always been and always will be the 460 weatherby......

[Yukon Jack]

You may want to check with Don Heath, administrator of the Zimbabwe Professional Hunters Exam and owner of African Hunter Magazine.  He's witnessed several Weatherbys failing, the 460 in particular.

Another thing about the Wby, is the push feed action.  I can't see using a bolt gun for Dangerous Game that isn't control round fed.  Just doesn't make sense.  An Alaskan was mauled this past week after he short stroked his Sako and it jammed up tight.  While the short stroke would have kept a Mauser or Win 70 from cycling a new round into the chamber, it wouldn't have made the rifle into a club.

I disagree also with the weight/length issue.  If you are hunting dangerous game, you are in Alaska or Africa, at least these days.  Take that Wby to Africa and risk blowing it up, or locking the bolt as Heath reports, or bring it to Alaska and go into an alder/devil's club jungle and pray for a much handier rifle.

http://www.african-hunter.com/lessons_learned.htm

I’ll start with my least favourite rifle:- the Weatherby. We don’t often see them out here, thank goodness. The one we had this year exhibited the usual Weatherby failing of going off when the safety catch was disengaged. Like all I’ve seen with this problem, they work fine on the range. It is only after they have been bounced, bumped or jolted whilst loaded and on safe that they do this. I’m sure the problem is correctable and not all do it, however, this one would also not extract at all after the eighth round. It showed decidedly sticky extraction after the first three shots and finally died on number eight. It gives me great pleasure than to dig out my 2lb hammer and beat the bolt of a new rifle open whilst giving the owner a lecture on the benefits of reloading. Weatherby factory ammo always gives extraction problems and needs to be down loaded for use in hot conditions. The .460 is notorious and this .416 proved no different.

[Con]

Hey guys,
Can we back up a minute and have someone define a DGR? It's always seemed to me that you shoot whatever does the job best and stay away from the specialist equipment (eg. An open sighted "Stopper" Rifle). Of the cartridges suggested, I'd pick the 416 Rigby because it's the smallest calibre that does the job well, has the potential to reach out and carries enough bullet weight to be a "Stopper". The 458WM would be my next choice but its 500gr projectile isn't as versatile in the reach department.
Regarding Weatherby ammunition, Yukon Jack may have a point, I've seen one 378 Weatherby totally incapacitated because of hot factory ammunition.
Cheers...
Con
PS: If I had to pay a hefty fee to hunt something that may bite back and because I was a "tourist-hunter" regulations dictated I had to be backed up by a professional with a big gun, I'd take my 375H&H and make sure the first bullet went where it's meant to go.

[DirtyHarry]

Thanks for the tip, I think I will do some investigation of my own and see if I can gather all the facts on these weatherby failures, instead of what sounds to me like just the opinions of another PH who thinks the 375 h&h is the be all end all of calibers simply because they cant handle the recoil of the 460 and need some way to pad thier ego, just like I have been hearing for years......

[Yukon Jack]

One thing to give thought to, is that the 460 has been around for a long, long time.  It's had plenty of time to prove itself as a stopper or fighting rifle, as has the Weatherby Mark V action.  I don't know of any Alaskan guides or African PH's that use them.  Zero.  There may be a few, but they are nowhere near as prevalent as the various Mauser variants, the M70's, Rugers (especially here in Alaska) or doubles (Africa).

It's not the cost of the Weatherby either.  There are plenty of guides and PH's using custom made rifles, costing far more than a Weatherby.  Guys that are successful and have a long life in this profession, typically do pretty well, and some do indeed shoot H&H, Westley Richards, Rigby, etc... rifles, even really high cost double rifles, that are much more expensive than the Weatherbys.

Why don't any of them chamber for the 460?  It's not because they can't take the recoil.  Many of these guys shoot rifles chambered for cartridges that are just recoil pouncing as the 460 (especially if the 460 has a muzzle brake).  It's not because of ammo availability, they can get ammo just as easy as you or I can.

For the most part, especially the the PH's and guides that have been around for a long time use controlled round feed actions chambered for lower pressure cartridges.  They are out there for their livelihood and their life depends on the rifle and its chambering working everytime, all the time, without fail.

They don't use lever guns in 45/70 and they don't use pushfeed actions chambered for cartridges that stick the bolt on a hot day.

[Lawdog]

Let me jump in here.  When I came up with this post I mean to put down “DG”(Dangerous Game) cartridge.  The R in “DGR” was due to my brain getting ahead of my fingers.  Happens as we get older I am told.   :?   As for Weatherby rifles failing, maybe a few have but their have been many hundreds of thousands that have went to Africa/Alaska that have performed as well as any other rifle made(and better than many).  The reason you don’t see many PH’s or guides using Weatherby rifles is cost, plain and simple.  Just like you don’t see many PH's using double rifles anymore either.  A top of the line H&H double will set you back $75,000 or more.  I have taken my Weatherby rifles to Alaska many times and never had a failing nor has anyone that I know in the Weatherby Collectors club either.  I would love to have someone prove where a Weatherby rifle “blew up” due to an action problem.  Maybe something got in the barrel to plug it but that could happen to the best custom rifle made.  Remember this thread is about cartridges not rifles and whether or not the CRF is better than the PF.  Read my original post and you will see where I stated “We are not talking rifles here.”.  Small groups and tight lines to all.  Lawdog
 

[Yukon Jack]

Lawdog, I respect your opinion, but cost isn't the major factor in a PH's rifle in Africa.  The SCI was full of PH's that toted Rigbys, WR's, and custom Mausers.  They could have bought a half dozen Weatherbys for those prices.  It is probably a factor for PH that has just received his government license, but I guarantee you that Harry Selby nor Robin Hurt nor Tony Arino would never hesitate to pay more than a Weatherby would cost if it was the best rifle for the job.  Shoot, even Bruce Watson, who has only been a PH for 10 years has a custom WR.

The fact remains that Weatherby is a push feed rifle that is chambered for cartridges that are on the upper limit (when all things go well) of the pressure range.  The cartridge itself is bad enough.

Why, if it isn't just the rifle, do you not see the custom made rifles these PH's carry chambered for the big Weatherby Magnums?  Because their life, their clients life, their reputation, and their livelihood all depend on that rifle/cartridge combination working day in, day out, in the worst of conditions and in the best of conditions, 100% of the time without fail.  When cartridges are as high pressured as the Weatherbys are, you just can't make that 100% assumption.  Sport hunters can, PH's can't.  Don't take my word for it, ask PH's.  Talk to them about it.  Not sport hunters, PH's that make their living doing that.

Sanchez-Arino is a government hunter, scientific expedition leader, and PH.  Well known and wealthy enough to own any rifle/cartridge combo known to man.  His choice is Mauser actioned 500 Jeff improved.  Not a single well-known PH or government hunter uses the Mark V or the Wby Magnums.  Don't you think that after all these years, if the 460 and the Mark V was such a great choice someone would have latched onto it?  Nah.  If a PH had thought a client's Wby killed or handled better than anything he'd witnessed, don't you think he would have gotten one by now?  Especially people like Robin Hurt, Sanchez-Arino, Aagaard, Lamprecht, Selby, etc....  Nah, somebody backing up clients on elephant, buffalo and other dangerous game hunts doesn't need the best rifle/cartridge combination for their stopping rifle.  Instead of paying 6,000 for a Rigby or 15,000 WR bolt action rifle or 40,000 for WR or H&H double, they could have purchased a 2,000 Weatherby that was the greatest rifle and chambered for the grandest cartridge.  Does that make any sense to you?  No, it doesn't.

Because the Weatherby Mark V rifle and the Weatherby 460 Mag are so linked, it is really impossible to discuss one without the other.  However, you still don't see any custom elephant fighting rifles chambered for the 460.  You do see them in just about every other chambering and carried by PH's in those custom rifles.

Some people are defined by the rifles and cartridges they carry and shoot.  Some men define the rifles and cartridges they carry and shoot.

[Con]

Yukon Jack,
Any idea what chamberings the PHs you mentioned are using? Sanchez-Arino's 500 Jeff Improved sounds interesting and highly specialized ie custom reamer, fireforming brass, custom dies etc... Wonder why a professional would go to so much trouble rather than use the standard 500 Jeffrey? Likewise I suppose it is interesting that these professionals are willing to have custom CRF rifles built but are not considering the 460 Weatherby, if they reloaded wouldn't that side-step the pressure issues? Perhaps the 460 isn't being choosen because our Solid/Soft projectiles dont hold up or perhaps they're choosing to stay in the "mythical/magical" 2400fps area?

Either way, Lawdog make mine a 416 Rigby (or 416Rem) for the ideal DG cartridge with the ability to both reach and stop as required.
Cheers...
Con

[pc]

My heart says .450 Rigby but my head says .458 lott as it has been standardized by Hornady & Ruger...there are heaps of .458 cal bullets availbe from DG bullets to say the 400 gr Barnes X bullet which would should flat enough for plains game.

Both the above are also challenged by the .416 Rigby...I can not split the three. I own a .416 Rigby & a .458 lott and love them both.

[Yukon Jack]

Selby, Lamprecht and a few others use Mauser actioned 416 Rigbys.  Selby likes to recount the he had carried a wonderful Rigby double in 470 (I believe, I'll check for sure later) that a tracker ran over with the bakkie one day.  He just grabbed his 416 after that and used it ever since.

I believe Hurt and a few others use doubles in 470, 500-465 (Teddy Roosevelt's large rifle chambering on his African Safari).  Mark Sullivan, of course, totes his 600 Nitro double.  But I guess when you are as big a ._____ as he is (you fill in the blank), you need something of that sort.  Quite a few are using the 404 Jeffery.  JJHack uses his 458 Lott with success in RSA.  Bruce Watson's (of Swainpoel and Scandroel) uses a 500 Jeffery.

Sanchez-Arino uses an "improved" version of the 500 Jeffery.  The original 500 Jeffery has a rebated rim, the improved version does not.  There were very few manufacturers during Arino's culling days that make reliable rebated rim feeding actions.  Arino decided to get around that by having brass made with a "rimless" design (much like a 30-06's rim).  I do believe Arino has one of the British Ammo manufacturers make his cartridges for him.

As Lawdog said in a post above, Weatherby cartridges have been used all over the world by visiting sportsmen with satisfactory results.  I know of no Dangerous Game Guides or PH's (including Alaskan Guides) that depend on the 460, 416, or 378 Wby for their primary rifle.  I do know several that use 458 Win, 458 Lott, 416 Rigby, etc...  The 460 has been around long enough now that if he killed as great as the numbers indicated, all manner of guides, PH's, etc... would be carrying it exclusively.  That just isn't the case.  As mentioned before, a lot of these guides and PH's are doing well enough to own at least one, if not more, custom made or high dollar English rifles.  Rifles costing much more than than what a Weatherby could be purchased for.  If you are having a custom rifle made, the Weatherby chambering could be made as cost effectively as something like the 404 Jeffery, or any others.  Take a look at the cost of factory ammo for the 500 Jeffery, it ain't cheap by any stretch of the imagination, at least as much as the Weatherby.  Cost for handloads in the Jeffery is more expensive than you can handload the Wby 460.

I guess I've come off a little rough in this discussion, I apologize for that.  It just drives me crazy when people think because a cartridge has big numbers, it is the end all for whatever application.  That isn't the case.  There are so many different factors that make KE, TKO, etc... neglibile that those metrics really are useless.  Just because a rifle is the envy of movie stars or your gun club, or has big KE numbers, doesn't really prove anything.

[warf73]

As stated above in my post I will take my problems with the 460WBY.
Let’s touch base on some of the issues at hand.

You guys are talking pressures and gun blow ups. When was the last time a 375H&H blow up?
Here are just 2 rounds that are named in above post and they are high pressure but yet your not knocking them owe that’s different you like them.
375 H&H 62,000
416 Remington Magnums 65,000

"I know of no Dangerous Game Guides or PH's (including Alaskan Guides) that depends on the 460, 416, or 378 Wby for their primary rifle. I do know several that use 458 Win, 458 Lott, 416 Rigby, etc... "

Lets talk about these fine cartridges.
You talk cost lets do a run down on cost. What is the avaiblity of these cartridges in Africa and Alaska? I can get the 458Win, 458Lott; 375H&H locally but the rest would be special order. All prices are from mail order Midway USA

458 Win Federal Premium Safari 458 Winchester Mag. 500 Grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw Box of 20 $69.70

458 Lott Hornady Custom Ammunition 458 Lott 500 Grain Round Nose Box of 20 $64.99

416 Rigby Federal Premium Safari Ammunition 416 Rigby 400 Grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw Box of 20 $125.50

If you are going to mention the 378WBY then you have to mention the 375H&H.

375H&H Remington Premier Safari Grade Ammunition 375 H & H Magnum 300 Grain Swift A-Frame Pointed Soft Point Box of 20 $51.95


378 WBY 378 Weatherby Magnum 300 Grain Hornady Round Nose Box of 20 $72.99

416 WBY 416 Weatherby Magnum 400 Grain Hornady Round Nose Box of 20 $86.99

460 WBY 460 Weatherby Magnum 500 Grain Hornady Round Nose Box of 20 $91.99

Prices are close I guess if you call $20.00 close.
But my question is why do you want to compare prices of the 460 to the 500 Jeffery?
It's not event the same family as the 460 i.e. .458"..

It is the end all for whatever application

I think you are missing the boat.
The post said

Which Would You Prefer for A DGR??

So my question is why in the **** did you go off on people that only stated what they would take.

The post wasn't Hay PH's what gun do you carry?

Every cartridge mentioned above I would love to have in a rifle as I really like to collect and shoot firearms. So it really makes me mad when someone comes and talks down any caliber when it was stated very clearly at the beginning what you would take.

Fact of the matter is ALL cartridges mentioned above have killed DG and very well.

I didn't see anywhere in the post above saying the 460WBY is the kill all of kill all cartridges.

If this post makes you mad well your post made me mad.
The point being I like all of these cartridges and would be proud to say I shot DG with any of them.

[Yukon Jack]

Lets talk about these fine cartridges.
You talk cost lets do a run down on cost. What is the avaiblity of these cartridges in Africa and Alaska? I can get the 458Win, 458Lott; 375H&H locally but the rest would be special order. All prices are from mail order Midway USA

Actually you can walk into a variety of gunshops in Alaska and pick up cases or loaded ammunition for the all the Wby rounds.  If you live in the bush, you can get the person (or yourself on a supply run) to pick up the ammunition for you.  The availability of ammo isn't a major concern.

But my question is why do you want to compare prices of the 460 to the 500 Jeffery?
It's not event the same family as the 460 i.e. .458"..

I disagree, since we are talking about Dangerous Game cartridges.  They all should be included.  By the way, the cost for 20 rounds of the 500 Jeffery is about $180.  20 rounds of brass is roughly $80.  Both cartridges are for the largest game animals on earth.  The application for both is exactly the same, as it is for the 470 NE, 600 Nitro, 700, 550 Magnum, 577 NE, 458 Win, et al.  Point being, since there are several 500 Jeff's about, cost isn't a major factor when these guys are selecting their rifle.

I didn't see anywhere in the post above saying the 460WBY is the kill all of kill all cartridges.

Well to me it is ultimate caliber for any large/dangerous game on the planet, the numbers are indisputable. Heck, merely mentioning the words "460 weatherby" at the gun club never fails to raise heads

Also, when looking at this question, it wasn't just between the 375's, 416, and 458 rifles, notice Lawdog's last bit added on the end:

It was asked of me last night and I though it might make a good topic here. Of the following cartridges, .416 Rigby, .458 Win. Mag., .458 Lott, .450 Rigby, .450 Dakota, .460 Weatherby Mag., or whatever cartridge suits you, which would you prefer in a dangerous game rifle and WHY?

That would include any chambering that is useful for DG.

I didn't say the posts made me mad, and I'm sorry that I upset you.  It does drive me crazy, but not mad.

[warf73]

Point well taken.

As I stated I would be proud to have taken DG with any of the cartridges mentioned in the above posts.

I just don’t like it when someone runs down any caliber / cartridge because they dislike it.

That is why I got steamed about it.

[Yukon Jack]

I can appreciate that.  It's not that I don't like the Weatherby cartridges, I have owned a couple in the past.  My favorite is the 270 Wby.  No real reason I like it more than the rest, I guess because for a long time, it just outperformed any other 270 on the market more than the Wby's.  Of course, the 257 does the same thing.

Just wanted to share the information I've received over the years from various sources and my own experiences.  The Alaskan guides and African PH's that have been doing this for a long time, are sources I feel are qualified to make those judgements because of the amount of experience they have hunting dangerous game for a living.  It helps us make better informed decisions and keeps us away from huge disappointments, or injury, in the field.

Take care,
YJ

[unspellable]

The point of keeping the pressure low in a big game rifle (as compared to other rifles) is not the danger of blowups, but to avoid difficult extraction.  After all, a blow up can be hazardous to your health even when you are shooting ground hogs.  Difficult extraction is only hazardous to your health when the target can fight back.

[BattleRifleG3]

Can a 458 Lott also fire 458 Win Mag rounds?  If so, I could easily justify the Lott if it was chambered in a reliable bolt action.

Because the 458 has as far as I know always been proven in North America, I'd think it sufficient.  If range over 100yd is an issue, I'd pick something more surgical like a 375 H&H or even a 338 Win Mag, or possibly even 300 RUM (most likely a 375 H&H though), and have a buddy (or be the buddy) with a big bore ready in case the one shot didn't do it.

In my not highly experienced opinion, more recoil = less time between follow up shots.  I would be more likely to miss than to score a good shot on an animal and have a 458 fail to do what a 460 Wby could.  Rifles in 458 Win or Lott would likely have at least one more round capacity than the wider Wby Mags, and have longer life due to lower throat erosion.

In fact, in North America (which is as far as I would go to hunt), would the 450 Marlin really be insufficient for the biggest game?  I'm talkibg power, not trajectory.  If I needed trajectory, I'd go with a smaller caliber and higher velocity.

I would never hunt alone outside of my locality.  If hunting dangerous game we'd decide beforehand who was the sharpshooter and who had his back.  Sharpshooter would have a high speed <40cal magnum and backup would have a big bore repeater.

[Yukon Jack]

You can fire 458 Winny cartridges in a 458 Lott.  It's not a recommended practice, but you can do that if you are in a pinch.

[unspellable]

I am sometimes a detractor of the 458 Winchester, but in this context I'll stick up for it.  All of these cartridges are an inside 200 yards proposition.  The 458 Winchester has ample horsepower for anything in North America, including the brown bear and the polar bear.  The Lott adds un-needed power and recoil, and requires a magnum length action.  The 458 Winchester will do anything the 450 Marlin will do and then some except for fitting in certain rifles.  If you have the hots for one of those rifles, go for the 450 Marlin, otherwise go for the 458 Winchester.

I have a 458 Winchester and would not feel undergunned for any short range proposition in North America.  (You have to be reasonable about it.  I don't use the 458 for rabbits, I use my 375 H&H.)