Author Topic: Why won't the 209x45 muzzleloader barrels fit (Read 1091 times)

Deaf Smith · « **on:** April 03, 2004, 04:35:19 PM »

the older contender models? but will fir the G2? This is a question I need answered please.

buckenbass · « **Reply #1 on:** April 03, 2004, 04:53:07 PM »

The forarm you need to use with the muzzle loader won't allow it to be used with the old contenders..

Hope this helps

contendernut · « **Reply #2 on:** April 03, 2004, 05:00:52 PM »

The ML barrel has a small pin sticking out the bottom of the lug preventing the barrel from fitting old frames.

les hemby · « **Reply #3 on:** April 05, 2004, 09:35:34 AM »

I have heard you can grind the pin off,but not sure

Deaf Smith · « **Reply #4 on:** April 06, 2004, 04:03:20 AM »

specificually NOT to do that. They say do not modify the barrel to fit a old model frame nor modify an old model frame to accept the barrel. Makes me wonder if the barrel produces too much pressure for the old model frames. I am not sure how the other folks do ir gonic susposed has a barrel for the contender but last time I looked the gonis system cost as much as the whole gun. I camn buy a bp rifle cheaper than that.
Jim L
I just want a rifle length BP barrel that does not cost me any more than a regular factory t/c barrel is that too much to ask?
JL

contendernut · « **Reply #5 on:** April 06, 2004, 04:47:58 AM »

There is a fellow on ebay that sells 24" Gonic barrels new with forend for $260

tlyne · « **Reply #6 on:** April 06, 2004, 12:29:15 PM »

The 209x45 barrel has (can have) too high of pressure for the old frames. The G2 is 150% stronger than the old frames. Please don't cut off the hang down lug on your 209x45 barrels for your safety. Hope this will help answer some of your questions. Twyman

Sixgun · « **Reply #7 on:** April 07, 2004, 03:53:17 AM »

I have not seen any of the TC muzzle loader barrels but it seems to me that it is a closed system. Doesn't it consist of a barrel with a breech plug? If that is the case it doesn't matter what kind of frame is holding it. All of the pressure is contained in the barrel. You could hold the barrel in your hand without a frame and hit the primer with a hammer and be completely safe.

I must be missing something here. I'm not trying to get anyone to do something stupid but I have the opinion that most of the rules that manufactures make for their products now days are either to please a lawyer or make more money. An example of this is the idiot proofing they do to lawnmowers now days. They put that stupid kill switch on the mower and on top of the inconvience of starting it every time you leave it, the first thing that brakes is the kill switch so your lawn mower won't work at all so you jury rig around it and now you can't turn the mower off at all so it is more dangerous than it was and all of this is done to us to save some idiot that should be out of the gene pool anyway.

Sorry, I do feel better now though.

Sixgun

Sean · « **Reply #8 on:** April 09, 2004, 11:46:41 AM »

Quote from: Sixgun

I have not seen any of the TC muzzle loader barrels but it seems to me that it is a closed system. Doesn't it consist of a barrel with a breech plug? If that is the case it doesn't matter what kind of frame is holding it. All of the pressure is contained in the barrel. You could hold the barrel in your hand without a frame and hit the primer with a hammer and be completely safe.
Sixgun

I'll watch you from a safe distance and you can show me that. I'd love to see it. Sean

RonF · « **Reply #9 on:** April 10, 2004, 08:24:12 AM »

Actually, if it really is a closed, screw-in breech plug, Sixgun is correct. The breech plug will contain the pressure and the barrel will be put in tension for a time (until the bullet exits and the pressure drops). Of course, he'd better have a good grip on that barrel to handle the recoil, and the primer will likely shoot out when the hammer rebounds, but other than that no harm will fall to him. It's a matter of physics, and I don't see why the 209x.45 barrel couldn't safely be used on any Contender frame if the pin were ground off. Since the breech plug contains the pressure, with the only backthrust coming from the small diameter primer and the recoil, there shouldn't be any problem. The recoil is the only force needing resistance and it would be resisted by both the standing breech and the hinge pin that secures the barrel, so the frame between the hinge pin and the standing breech would all be in compression except for the small thrust of the primer. This is decidedly different from the case of, say a .454 Casull which we know to be too hot for the old Contender. In that case, the brass can stretch and the case head can exert a large force on the standing breech. This puts the area between the standing breech and the hinge pin in tension, which is why frames stretch when they are used outside their design parameters. This doesn't happen with the solid breech plug, since it and the barrel are essentially one unit.

Want to know what I think? Doesn't matter, I'm going to tell you anyhow. :lol: I think T/C wants to sell new frames. There is no way shooters are going to buy one if their old barrels won't fit, but T/C never marketed a 209x.45 barrel for the old frames, so they fix it so these new ones won't fit the old frames, and if we like this barrel, then we're gonna' have to buy a new frame. Marketing, simple as that. It sure ain't the physics of the matter. Sure, they don't want us to grind off the pin, but it is because they want to sell us a new frame, not because it's unsafe. That's what I think. You think what you want.

I would like to see Sixgun do what he said, and if he's a muscular, strong guy who I think can hang on to that barrel, I'll stand closer than Sean.

RonF

Deaf Smith · « **Reply #10 on:** April 10, 2004, 08:59:32 AM »

And I think this will be the first of many barrels that will not "fit" the old frames. I beleave that T/C wants to phase out the Contender completely for the new G2. slowly but surely until they make no barrels whick will fit the older frames. It won't happen now but give it time. Its the way the wind is blowing and has been since they discontinued the origional contender.
Jim L

RonF · « **Reply #11 on:** April 10, 2004, 10:08:59 AM »

You may be right, Jim. This might not be such a bad thing in some cases. For example, some folks have rechambered .30-30 barrels to .30-40 Krag. These are marginal on the old Contender but are ok if not over loaded. On the new frame, though, they would probably be fine without worry, as might the .250 Savage or the .225 Win, so it is possible we might see more barrels in some of these hotter calibers that would be fine for the G2 but marginal or unsafe for the original Contender and which might have this little pin on them to keep them from fitting the old frames. It is hard to imagine, though, that they would drop .357 Mag, .44 Mag, .30-30, etc. in versions that would fit old frames.

Just my half nickel.

RonF

Deaf Smith · « **Reply #12 on:** April 11, 2004, 06:55:51 AM »

is stronger than the origional Contender? Its just NOT true. The gun RESEMBLES the encore but is NOT one. It may have the little extra thickness at the top of the frame but the rest of the frame is the same dimentions as the origional design. This may be giving some folks to beleave the newer gun is actually a stronger frame bit definately is NOT any stronger than the origional Contender. You cannot use any cartridge in the G2 that you cannot use in the contender you will streach (or blow up) the G2 just as quickly and easily.
The reason for the G2 was simply to elimonate all the libility problems with the origional contender Frame. (Like the dry-fire option which few bother to understand or the trigger pull weight adjustability) A G2 is just a lawer designed Contender wheras the origional was designed by a SHOOTER.
Nothing more nothing less. People don't read manuals any more they don't understand their guns they just want to buy it and go out and shoot it. And if in their own stupidity they blow off a toe they want somebody else to blame other than themselves when it clearly states what NOT to do in the manual they didnt read.
Jim L

RonF · « **Reply #13 on:** April 11, 2004, 12:00:08 PM »

I don't want to argue with you, Jim, and the G2 certainly isn't an Encore. One reason is the smaller barrel diameter at the breech, which clearly limits the size of cartridge that can be used. Surely you've seen that blown up barrel which was rechambered to .444 Marlin. That wouldn't happen in an Encore. Still the G2 is stronger than the original Contender. That little bit of added metal is strategically placed so as to increase the tensile strength of the frame between the hinge pin and the standing breech and to resist the bending stress in the area of the standing breech. That's the engineer in me talking; this is a stronger frame. I don't know how much and I'm not going to do the analysis until someone pays me to. T/C may not plan to sell barrels chambered for calibers not safe on the original Contender; then again they may. It may be they just wanted to increase the strength to increase the margin of safety and to reduce their warranty claims on stretched frames; they haven't told me and I'm sure they won't. The G2 is also cheaper to manufacture, so they increase their profit, too, which is what's probably making the world go 'round. All I said was that I believe this new frame would be safer with some more powerful calibers than the original Contender. I know I feel better with my .30-40 Krag barrel on the new frame, although I am careful with loads and have never had a problem on the original frames.

This is what I believe based on a pretty long and involved engineering career, but you'll note that in an earlier post I said you could believe what ever you want.

RonF

Deaf Smith · « **Reply #14 on:** April 11, 2004, 07:36:11 PM »

I was just stating what I think T/C is trying to do. I don't doubt the placement of the ribs make that particulat part of the frame a bit stronger but a certain gunsmoith has measured the two frames and the dimentions are close enough to say that while they strenyhened one place others have not so the frame will give at the same pressures just on a different place the only way to change that would be to strengthen the whole frame not just add a couple of ribs. According to him the frame will still streach but at a different place under the same pressures as the older frame so you are no safer with the new one than the old one please keep pressures the same with both frames. LIke I said its not a safty issue its just a lawer one. Sorry if it appeared that I was argueing with you I did'nt mean to T/C just frustrates me with the way they did this. Like they are planning to abandon the origional Contender owner at some future date. I sincerely hope not but the new barrel thats for the G2 but not the contender is the one thing they said they would not be doing when they announced the G2. I personally don't care for the newer grip angle either. A G2 nor encore is not in my future. Maybe a 4th contender frame someday definately new or used barrels through. thanks for listening sorry If I upset or angered you. I feel abanded by T/C at this point.
sincerely
Jim L

RonF · « **Reply #15 on:** April 12, 2004, 01:55:24 AM »

You didn't upset me Jim; I was just apologizing in advance in case my reply upset you. :-) I do disagree with the gunsmith you refer to, however. The old frames stretched at a particular place if the pressure got too high. That place has been strengthened. If the pressure is further increased, at some point the frame will stretch, perhaps at a different place. This is the definition of being stronger. BTW, what I think T/C said in their original announcement was that all our old barrels would fit the new frame, not that all new barrels would fit all old frames. Anyhow, like you, I also feel a bit abandoned. While I like the G2, it just doesn't have the "curb appeal" of those original Contenders with their full etching, racy grip and Sterling grip cap.

Happy shooting!

RonF