Combating misinformation concerning OT Hebrews and early Christians

[ironglowz]

Often an unbeliever will accuse the Bible, and likewise Jews and early Christians of promoting/practicing slavery.  ..Not quite true.. at least not in the conventional sense.

   Most "slaves" in those cases, could be better compared to contracted apprentices, or one who owing a great debt...sold their services for a given period..

  "Slavery" in ancient Judea was never  a permanent situation, although some were held for lonh periods. Here's how AI explains it in a relatively lucid way;

   
AI Summary

To understand the role of slaves in ancient Israel, consider the following points:

Slavery was a common practice in ancient Israel, often involving debtors or prisoners of war.
Hebrew slaves were typically treated better than those in surrounding cultures, with laws protecting their rights.
Slaves could earn their freedom after a set period, usually six years, as per the laws in the Torah.
The Year of Jubilee mandated the release of all slaves every 50 years, restoring their land and freedom.
Slaves could participate in religious festivals and were included in family life, often sharing in the household's blessings.
The treatment of slaves was governed by specific laws, emphasizing humane treatment and care.

[Dee]

Often an unbeliever will accuse the Bible, and likewise Jews and early Christians of promoting/practicing slavery.  ..Not quite true.. at least not in the conventional sense.

   Most "slaves" in those cases, could be better compared to contracted apprentices, or one who owing a great debt...sold their services for a given period..

  "Slavery" in ancient Judea was never  a permanent situation, although some were held for lonh periods. Here's how AI explains it in a relatively lucid way;

   
AI Summary

To understand the role of slaves in ancient Israel, consider the following points:

Slavery was a common practice in ancient Israel, often involving debtors or prisoners of war.
Hebrew slaves were typically treated better than those in surrounding cultures, with laws protecting their rights.
Slaves could earn their freedom after a set period, usually six years, as per the laws in the Torah.
The Year of Jubilee mandated the release of all slaves every 50 years, restoring their land and freedom.
Slaves could participate in religious festivals and were included in family life, often sharing in the household's blessings.
The treatment of slaves was governed by specific laws, emphasizing humane treatment and care.

A biblical synopsis of Old Testament slavery and "early Christians "derived from speculation, and ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE . Proving misinformation is alive and well.

[ironglowz]

Often an unbeliever will accuse the Bible, and likewise Jews and early Christians of promoting/practicing slavery.  ..Not quite true.. at least not in the conventional sense.

   Most "slaves" in those cases, could be better compared to contracted apprentices, or one who owing a great debt...sold their services for a given period..

  "Slavery" in ancient Judea was never  a permanent situation, although some were held for lonh periods. Here's how AI explains it in a relatively lucid way;

   
AI Summary

To understand the role of slaves in ancient Israel, consider the following points:

Slavery was a common practice in ancient Israel, often involving debtors or prisoners of war.
Hebrew slaves were typically treated better than those in surrounding cultures, with laws protecting their rights.
Slaves could earn their freedom after a set period, usually six years, as per the laws in the Torah.
The Year of Jubilee mandated the release of all slaves every 50 years, restoring their land and freedom.
Slaves could participate in religious festivals and were included in family life, often sharing in the household's blessings.
The treatment of slaves was governed by specific laws, emphasizing humane treatment and care.

A biblical synopsis of Old Testament slavery and "early Christians "derived from speculation, and ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE . Proving misinformation is alive and well.

  Not really, the article was simply a short, easily reposted synopsis on the subject, but reflects studies I have researched and taught upon, years before AI arrived on the scene

[Dee]

I've noticed over the years that you use more outside references than scriptural references, and that many of those references are from questionable sources. Your latest with AI isn't at all surprising.
Your reference to Messianic Jews as being Christian comes to mind.

[ironglowz]

I've noticed over the years that you use more outside references than scriptural references, and that many of those references are from questionable sources. Your latest with AI isn't at all surprising.
Your reference to Messianic Jews as being Christian comes to mind.

  I use references simply because if I don't, somebody is sure to ask.."where did you get that from"?  So, I often include references since doubters will surely be asking for them.

  Concerning the Messianic Jews; they were predicted i the Bible.. and the present conversions may just be the opening chapter for the Jews as Christ followers.   (Romans 11:25-36)

[Dee]

I've noticed over the years that you use more outside references than scriptural references, and that many of those references are from questionable sources. Your latest with AI isn't at all surprising.
Your reference to Messianic Jews as being Christian comes to mind.

  I use references simply because if I don't, somebody is sure to ask.."where did you get that from"?  So, I often include references since doubters will surely be asking for them.

So ratherthanreferencingthe Bible,  you reference someone elses view of the Bible,  rather than yourown. Strange.

  Concerning the Messianic Jews; they were predicted i the Bible.. and the present conversions may just be the opening chapter for the Jews as Christ followers.   (Romans 11:25-36)

No where in scripture does God tell anyone (including the Jews) to levin the bread/scripture.  In fact He warns against it. The "Messianic Jew" is trying just that, by trying to mix Judaism into Christianity. Which is blasphemy toward Chist and the Cross.

[ironglowz]

 Read Isaiah 52 and 53.. Especially 53..  God tells the Jews that he will be sending the Messiah..and explains just how he will killed by crucifixion, andd say it in great detail .

  However the pharisees had already corrupted many practices and added things which were not passed down by God to the Jews. The pharisees even told the Jews to ignore those two chapters...or i should say that part, since there were not chapters and verses in the Bible until the early 1200s, when the Archbishop of canterbury did it.

  They actually wandered from god's word several times and were punished several times...but God never reneged upon his covenant with Abraham.

[Dee]

Read Isaiah 52 and 53.. Especially 53..  God tells the Jews that he will be sending the Messiah..and explains just how he will killed by crucifixion, andd say it in great detail .

  However the pharisees had already corrupted many practices and added things which were not passed down by God to the Jews. The pharisees even told the Jews to ignore those two chapters...or i should say that part, since there were not chapters and verses in the Bible until the early 1200s, when the Archbishop of canterbury did it.

  They actually wandered from god's word several times and were punished several times...but God never reneged upon his covenant with Abraham.

Go back and read your Bible. When God made His covenant with Abraham, He ordered Abraham to make the blood sacrifices to walk between. Then knowing Abraham couldn't keep his end of the bargain put Abraham into a deep sleep, and God walked between the sacrifices sealing the covenant.
But that has nothing to do with Messianic Jews trying to stir Judaism into Christianity. The two cannot be integrated, as Christ made a new covenant with man when He died on the Cross.
You can twist scripture all you want, but you (and others) are barkin up an empty tree. Messianic Judaism is not Christianity

[Lloyd Smale]

its all just opinion be it dees, mine, ironglows or some sorce he quotes. that is unless God whispers in your ear and then you have a much bigger problem

[Bob Riebe]

     
     If God makes a covenant, it is forever, unless God personally says it is void.    Jesus death created a Covenant with all of mankind that accepts Jesus sacrifice, it did NOT cancel anything.

[ironglowz]

  There are of course, two types of covenant..conditional and unconditional .

  Example of a conditional covenant:

  Notice how He says "if you heed all that I command you"..

  : ". . . if you heed all that I command you, walk in My ways, and do what is right in My sight, to keep My statutes and My commandments, as My servant David did, then I will be with you and build for you an enduring house, as I built for David, and will give Israel to you" (I Kings 11:38).

  Example of an unconditional covenant:

   The Abrahamic covenant...God did not say ..if you do this or that...

   1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.  (Gen 12: 1-3)

   

[ironglowz]

     
     If God makes a covenant, it is forever, unless God personally says it is void.    Jesus death created a Covenant with all of mankind that accepts Jesus sacrifice, it did NOT cancel anything.

   Concerning the Messianic Jews...  Back in Jeremiah's time, God promised the Jews that at a future time, He would give them a NEW covenant !

    31“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, [h]though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.  (Jer 31:31-34)

   Then that future time arrived, and at His last supper, Jesus..speaking to his apostles (almost all Jews) He introduced to them, a new covenant.

  Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. (Luke 22:20)

   The major point of that covenant was made clear...and is a promise to "whosoever will"..

    16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16)

[Bob Riebe]

     
     If God makes a covenant, it is forever, unless God personally says it is void.    Jesus death created a Covenant with all of mankind that accepts Jesus sacrifice, it did NOT cancel anything.

   Concerning the Messianic Jews...  Back in Jeremiah's time, God promised the Jews that at a future time, He would give them a NEW covenant !

    31“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, [h]though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.  (Jer 31:31-34)

   Then that future time arrived, and at His last supper, Jesus..speaking to his apostles (almost all Jews) He introduced to them, a new covenant.

  Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. (Luke 22:20)

   The major point of that covenant was made clear...and is a promise to "whosoever will"..

    16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16)

I do not read Greek , though I have Bible that kinda-sorta does that, but in King James it says testament, and testament and covenant are NOT the same thing.

[ironglowz]

     
     If God makes a covenant, it is forever, unless God personally says it is void.    Jesus death created a Covenant with all of mankind that accepts Jesus sacrifice, it did NOT cancel anything.

   Concerning the Messianic Jews...  Back in Jeremiah's time, God promised the Jews that at a future time, He would give them a NEW covenant !

    31“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, [h]though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.  (Jer 31:31-34)

   Then that future time arrived, and at His last supper, Jesus..speaking to his apostles (almost all Jews) He introduced to them, a new covenant.

  Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. (Luke 22:20)

   The major point of that covenant was made clear...and is a promise to "whosoever will"..

    16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16)

I do not read Greek , though I have Bible that kinda-sorta does that, but in King James it says testament, and testament and covenant are NOT the same thing.

  Yes; that  was the NKJV that I quoted..but new covenant or new testament.. are interchangeable.

[Bob Riebe]

  Yes; that  was the NKJV that I quoted..but new covenant or new testament.. are interchangeable.

NOT even close, a covenant is binding agreement; a testament is a declaration.

The New Testament is a new declaration, declaring the ways of the Old Testament have been filled, it is not a covenant; there is not a binding agreement that all are saved, it is a declaration that all who BELIEVE are saved, not that all are saved, but those who do not are damned.

Words mean things, when words mean what some men/a man, not what it actually means,  they are meaningless, or the way some religions state that close enough , is good enough to be saved.

Poor grammar is the reason for centuries why the Catholic Priest drank all the wine and not giving to the parishioners as they should have.

[Lloyd Smale]

Poor grammar is the reason for centuries why the Catholic Priest drank all the wine and not giving to the parishioners as they should have.

did you read this

[ironglowz]

  Yes; that  was the NKJV that I quoted..but new covenant or new testament.. are interchangeable.

NOT even close, a covenant is binding agreement; a testament is a declaration.

The New Testament is a new declaration, declaring the ways of the Old Testament have been filled, it is not a covenant; there is not a binding agreement that all are saved, it is a declaration that all who BELIEVE are saved, not that all are saved, but those who do not are damned.

Words mean things, when words mean what some men/a man, not what it actually means,  they are meaningless, or the way some religions state that close enough , is good enough to be saved.

Poor grammar is the reason for centuries why the Catholic Priest drank all the wine and not giving to the parishioners as they should have.

    You are correct; I should have added that "new testament" and "new covenant" are commonly used interchangeably, but will not necessarily pass   muster in legal verbiage, as practiced by lawyers.

  ..But of course, we must keep in mind that translations allow for some hangups, and so we should allow the whole of scripture to offer us some direction.

[ironglowz]

its all just opinion be it dees, mine, ironglows or some sorce he quotes. that is unless God whispers in your ear and then you have a much bigger problem

  I expect that all here, who consider it worthwhile to deal with God, would find His word valuable.  What is more important than securing our eternal life, and doing our best to be assured that our loved ones do the same? 
    Studying His word is the very essence of the sincere Christian.  Why just accept whatever someone tells us, when the actual words are right at hand for us ?

  The Bible is unlike any other book, since it is "God breathed"..or inspired..  When I read any other book, as I finish a paragraph, I've drawn out about all the information from it, that is available.  This is not so with the scriptures, there is so often, much more being said, that first meets the eye.

  Do not be puzzled when we use portions scripture to back our contentions, since the Bible is considered the last word for doctrine and practice of Christian life.

  The early church, taught directly by the apostles, considered studying the Word to be very elemental to the Christian life.  ..And the Christians in Berea were complimented for doing just that !
 
    Now these people were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.  (Acts 17:11)

  They checked the preacher against the scriptures.. ..At that time, mostly OT scriptures.

  Of course, the numbering of chapters and verses was done in the 13th century, to aid referencing, but the miracle of God's word is the great vista offered by many verses.
  You read a verse and get a message..then perhaps 2 weeks later you read that verse again...and a whole, new thought and picture opens., much like a fine diamond...

  Hold that gem to the light, and you see something of beauty, but turn it just a bit..and a whole, new beauty is displayed.

  I encourage you to start reading the Bible ..even a small bit each day, praying that God open the message clearly you. You may get a pleasant surprise.

 

[Lloyd Smale]

hasnt changed since the last time i read it. ive voluntered to take an old vet to the VA hospital this afternoon. between that and a 4 hour bike ride out in Gods country this morning admireing his work i think i spent my time better than reading

[ironglowz]

hasnt changed since the last time i read it. ive voluntered to take an old vet to the VA hospital this afternoon. between that and a 4 hour bike ride out in Gods country this morning admireing his work i think i spent my time better than reading

  OK..good deed done and an enjoyable time, but there are 24 hours in a day..

[Lloyd Smale]

agreed and i should be doing much more to actually help less fortunate.

hasnt changed since the last time i read it. ive voluntered to take an old vet to the VA hospital this afternoon. between that and a 4 hour bike ride out in Gods country this morning admireing his work i think i spent my time better than reading

  OK..good deed done and an enjoyable time, but there are 24 hours in a day..