The changing face of war...

[ironglow]

  Mostly from an old tanker's view.

  The conflict in Ukraine has led to many innovations; so much that the face of war as we have known it is changing rapidly, moving in a rapid flux..

  Foremost in visibility perhaps, is how a weapon costing a few thousands of dollars, can eliminate a weapon costing millions.
  Recently a Ukrainian done is credited with bringing down an advanced Russian bomber worth $ 100,000,00, while the same drones are killing tanks which range from 5 to 10 million dollars apiece.

  Drones are changing much of the face of warfare even now, witnessed by action in the Ukraine.   
 

 Obviously, armored warfare is to undergo a revision.  The medium and heavy tanks are likely to phase out, in favor of lighter, more nimble versions.
  While physics at present, won't allow large, conventional guns to operate efficently on a light chassis, new missile type ordnance is developing apace.

  One vulnerable point on a coinventional tank, is the turret ring, the geared ring which the turret turns and permits accurate firing.  Drones are seen specifically targeting that ring. If that ring is just jammed, say nothing about penetrated, it would require aiming the gun tube by turning the entire tank. That is too slow to reply and live...and not likely to be able to draw a fine zero on any opposing source of danger.

   Coming soon, crewless weaponry.  I can visualize such a light tank, with armor protecting the essential vitals..with no need to protect the creeew or worry about crew comfort.

   New, composite and reactive armor makes lighter carriers more feasible, no turret required, since the missiles replacing the gun tube, can redirect their flight in the air. Robots in place of crewmen would solve an long held problem of armor designers..the height factor.

  In any combat situation, a low profile is desired, reducing the target area.  We tankers went through training with some fellow trainees who wer 6'5"
   tall or more..we viewed that as just more Army SNAFU.  A man that tall has difficulty when in a tank turret for any extended period.. and crew
  comfort is more critical than many realize.. Travelling for hours cramped up, may hav esome suffering from fatigue when they arrive at a point of action.

  Today's slogans may change.....armor used to be "the combat arm of decision"..will it remain so ?  I have confidence that the infantry will remain "the queen of battle", simply because, like the queen in chess...it is infantry that holds the ground once captured.

   Drones and AI will greatly alter the battlefield of the future.. even taking it to fields of battle yet unheard of..the reason for our new Space Force.

 

[Dee]

I see it the same. Politicians start the wars, and the common man fights and dies in'em. Man has graduated from rocks and clubs, to bows and spears, to rifles and bombs, and so on, and so on.
But the instigators, and the folks doing the actual fighting and dying are the same.

Since the end of WWII, the United States has not fought for American freedom. The actual war fighters have fought and died for greed, power, and corruption.

With luck, that period is over for at least the next 4 years.

[ironglow]

I see it the same. Politicians start the wars, and the common man fights and dies in'em. Man has graduated from rocks and clubs, to bows and spears, to rifles and bombs, and so on, and so on.
But the instigators, and the folks doing the actual fighting and dying are the same.

Since the end of WWII, the United States has not fought for American freedom. The actual war fighters have fought and died for greed, power, and corruption.

With luck, that period is over for at least the next 4 years.

 Yes, it seems many wars since WW2 may have been just as Gen Eisenhower said, .."military/industrial complex.. I hope Trump and hopewfully Vance to follow, can get that mess cleared up..

  But back to the changing face..  Next move will be the improvement of laser weapons..  They will cut some of the edge offered by drones and
   certain other weapons, due to low cost of firing as related to amountof damage produced.

  Perhaps, some noticed how the Russian tanks..even their top operational tank, the T90, seeem to really come apart in a dramatic way when hit..

  That is because of their obsolete ammo supply design. Today, most western tanks, have the main gun ammo, in a separate compartment, to
 be fed to the main gun one at a time.. a separate compartment which blows the top of that compartment, should it be detonated for some reason.

  On the other hand, the Russian tanks, being self loaders, need access to ammo from a convenient and consistant ready rack.  Thus, the ammo is stored in the turret for ready access by the  robotic loader.  This means that any projectile or explosion that penetrates the turret, sets off the ready ammo, which when it "cooks off", usually blows the turret like a champagne cork !

  See illustrations of a T90 below.. other Russian tanks follow the same pattern.

[Lloyd Smale]

drones and unmanned planes and tanks blowing each other up brings us up close to what war usually is, not a man against man thing a $ against $ fight. at least in the future they will last longer because it ends gorilla jungle warfair like in viet nam and street warfare like in Ukraine today. bad thing is it gives the edge to the richest most powerful country that isnt hamstrung by liberal politician. that gives china a big advantage in the future with things probably getting worse here. just look at the money the left is wasting fighting every policy of trumps and the cost of time and money to fight all those fights. money and TIME we could be using to build our military. As most here know im a FIRM believer in our constitution but can you imagine how powerful we could become if he didnt have to answer to any of the radical (censored word) idiots!!! a world where the aoc's, pelosi's, shummer's, sanders and newsome's are sent to the gulag for treason!!! because thats exactly what they are, traitors to our way of life!! while were at it jail any hollywood alitest that think being a movie star or entertainer makes them a political voice! send them all on the same plane the illegals heading to foreign prisons are put on!! anything short of that and my guess is drones are flying over us in 10 years, if for no other reason than to monitor radiation levels!!

[Dee]

Well, the changing face of war ultimately depends on the location of the war concerning military equipment such as tanks. For instance, they were used very little in the Philippines in WWII, and in Vietnam because of the terrain.
An estimated 800,000 Russian soldiers have been killed in the war with Ukraine so tanks regardless of technology do not replace the foot soldier.
Drones can do this, and flir can do that, but boots on the ground will still be necessary.
At some point in the future, man will be forced back into clubs and rocks.

[gypsyman]

  I'm thinking that globalists that push the war agenda are already looking into a newer method of taking over country's. Instead of war as we think of it, internal attacks against the power grid, banking/communications, roads and travel. What would happen if in NYC, Chicago, Atlanta, LA, the majority of the banking systems got hacked and wouldn't work for just a week? Very seldom when I'm at a store does anybody pay with cash. And, would the cash registers even work if the system wasn't working for credit card? How many could buy gas? What might happen if a couple major overpass's were shut down and semi's couldn't haul food into major cities? Port of Baltimore was shut down for almost 3 month's when the ship ran into the F.S. Key bridge. Russia managed to get rid of what they think was over 10 million people, Holodomor, 1931-1932 due to famine, drought and government intervention. (Covid-19 or bird flu come to mind??) With how much has taken place in this world in the last 10-15 years, I wont take anything off the table of possibility's!

[ironglow]

  I'm thinking that globalists that push the war agenda are already looking into a newer method of taking over country's. Instead of war as we think of it, internal attacks against the power grid, banking/communications, roads and travel. What would happen if in NYC, Chicago, Atlanta, LA, the majority of the banking systems got hacked and wouldn't work for just a week? Very seldom when I'm at a store does anybody pay with cash. And, would the cash registers even work if the system wasn't working for credit card? How many could buy gas? What might happen if a couple major overpass's were shut down and semi's couldn't haul food into major cities? Port of Baltimore was shut down for almost 3 month's when the ship ran into the F.S. Key bridge. Russia managed to get rid of what they think was over 10 million people, Holodomor, 1931-1932 due to famine, drought and government intervention. (Covid-19 or bird flu come to mind??) With how much has taken place in this world in the last 10-15 years, I wont take anything off the table of possibility's!

  True; we are more intricately connected than many realize. To me at least, our interconnected highly technical systems, appear to me to be a line of dominoes...just waiting for some small event to topple domino #1..

  From what I see in TV commercials...if some stranger can get on the internet and steal your home..where it is gone before you know it,
    demonstrates a terrible vulnerability that pleases me not !

[Dee]

True; we are more intricately connected than many realize. To me at least, our interconnected highly technical systems, appear to me to be a line of dominoes...just waiting for some small event to topple domino #1..

  From what I see in TV commercials...if some stranger can get on the internet and steal your home..where it is gone before you know it,
    demonstrates a terrible vulnerability that pleases me not !

AGREED!

[Lloyd Smale]

crap half the adults under 40 would commit suicide if they lost cell phone service or be scrunched up in the corner shaking. 3/4s of them would flee the country if they implemented a draft to fight against a country like china!! another advantage to china. there young would serve because death would be a certainty if they didnt

[GTS225]

This talk of the "changing face of war" bothers me some.
Yes, IG was correct in his first post, and I can't help but think that we are slowly "sterilizing" combat to the point that we won't see the result of what we do. (Think globally, here.) 

An episode of the original "Star Trek" series comes to mind where two planets were at war with each other, but all attacks and counter-attacks were conducted by computer connections, and those deemed "casualties" were expected to just walk into a dis-integration chamber and cease to exist.  Yes, it's fiction and an extreme example, but even extremes start small.

I think "we" need open warfare, with the front-line fighters, ON BOTH SIDES, coming home in boxes, or missing body parts but still alive, to remind us ALL that warfare should be the VERY LAST RESORT in a dispute.

This concept of waging war with remotely operated, armed drones is just one of those small steps toward sterilizing combat to the point of being too easy and "clean", at least from the civilians' point of view.

Just my opine.....Roger

[ironglow]

This talk of the "changing face of war" bothers me some.
Yes, IG was correct in his first post, and I can't help but think that we are slowly "sterilizing" combat to the point that we won't see the result of what we do. (Think globally, here.) 

An episode of the original "Star Trek" series comes to mind where two planets were at war with each other, but all attacks and counter-attacks were conducted by computer connections, and those deemed "casualties" were expected to just walk into a dis-integration chamber and cease to exist.  Yes, it's fiction and an extreme example, but even extremes start small.

I think "we" need open warfare, with the front-line fighters, ON BOTH SIDES, coming home in boxes, or missing body parts but still alive, to remind us ALL that warfare should be the VERY LAST RESORT in a dispute.

This concept of waging war with remotely operated, armed drones is just one of those small steps toward sterilizing combat to the point of being too easy and "clean", at least from the civilians' point of view.

Just my opine.....Roger

   ..Certainly a valid concern !

[Dixie-Dude]

The Air Force and Navy are working on smaller "swarms" of drone aircraft controlled by one pilot flying with them.  50 small drones can be a guarantee a target will be taken out.  Anti aircraft missiles can't stop all of them doing their job in a swarm.  Many of these drones will also be able to evade radar and fly supersonic, and take turns with higher g forces that would black out a human pilot.   

Then the Army may be doing the same thing with smaller back packable drones that can fly over a target quietly and destroy it.  Some drones are being made to look like birds in flight or even as small as insects or small birds like humming birds to have listening devices that can fly around an enemy location. 

Robots are being made that look like humans to do human type of work.  There may be robot soldiers in the future controlled by someone back at base camp. 

[scattershot]

At some point in the future, man will be forced back into clubs and rocks.

Yep, right after WWIII.

[ironglow]

Our discussion here may be very elementary concerning the trends in warfare.. 

 Have you ever wondered why the PRC has been collecting information on the DNA of any and all people from western nations , any way they can ?

  Have you ever sent your DNA swab to one of those genealogy websites..so they can provide your ethnic profile ?  No matter your brother, sister or
    cousin may have.

  many reputable news organizations are reporting that the PRC is developing an "ethnicity specific" fatal disease; one that will kill anyone not Chinese, or at the least not Asian.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biNxl7tiVSY 

    Many are reporting same..    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=china%27s+neew+ethnic+specific+bio+weapons

   Meanwhile,  the PRC has made it against the law, for any Chinese to release any DNA information on Chinese DNA..

[ironglow]

  Time for the west to get serious....    https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1114775/

   "14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind."   (Rev 9:14,15)

   ..Any relevance there ?

[Dee]

Unmanned drones have taken the worry out of being close. I'm pretty sure the United States military has already figured out how to defeat these unmanned drones. Other folks likely have also.
But when your battery charger has been taken out, its back to conventional warfare.
Man has been figuring out new ways to kill each other for about 7,000 years. Eventually it'll come back around to a more personal method.

The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Ecclesiastes Chapter 1 verse 9

[AtlLaw]

Eventually it'll come back around to a more personal method.

I have always believed that, no matter how advanced the technology, in a fight it always comes down to the man on the ground and his individual weapon.

[ironglow]

Eventually it'll come back around to a more personal method.

I have always believed that, no matter how advanced the technology, in a fight it always comes down to the man on the ground and his individual weapon.

  As the queen is the heart of the game of chess, and she either holds or loses ground..nobody is the winner, except the one who has his boots on the ground..and holds the territory.

   Which is why infantry is referred to as "the queen of battle"..  It has long been their slogan.

[ironglow]

Other combat arms have their slogans also..

  There is the artillery...SHOOT, MOVE, COMMUNICATE..  ...

   ..The armor's .. COMBAT ARM OF DECISION



  ..And who could forget...RANGERS LEAD THE WAY..

   Even the MPs have their... ASSIST, PROTECT, DEFEND

  There must be some logo or slogan for the combat choppers, too !  ..Although I did find one that you may relate to..
 

[teamnelson]

War is ultimately a contest of wills, national wills, which we saw in WW1, WW2, the first and second wars of independence ... but we haven't seen since WW2. War on terror? Nobody really cares. Its a sideshow, something the government is on about, gee so sad. As we used to say in OIF, Marines went to war, America went to Wal-Mart. The changing face of war is largely a reflection of the lack of interest by the average American in going to war. When was the last time Congress declared war?

But war is a racket (S. Butler) and America used to be the world leader in military gear, so we don't have to be at war ourselves. As long as other nations are at war, we have a market, and anybody who has served more than one tour has probably seen that our troops are often beta testers of gear, that we then take on multi-national exercises to product display to potential vendors. Drones, robots, etc. are all for sale, just like aircraft, artillery pieces, etc. My service spanned 87 to 22, during which time I saw dozens of programs shut down, gear phased out, but once it was stable, put on the market. Last two cases were the Osprey and the F-35, both of which are ridiculously expensive, and very high maintenance, but other nations are lining up for them.

As long as Americans are content that war is "not in my backyard" ... someone else's kids, someone else's home ... war by remote is pretty popular and lucrative. My idea of war by remote would be the political leaders of each nation in a gladiator type event live streamed for the populace to watch to see exactly how important the war is to the ones that want it.

[Dee]

As long as Americans are content that war is "not in my backyard" ... someone else's kids, someone else's home ... war by remote is pretty popular and lucrative. My idea of war by remote would be the political leaders of each nation in a gladiator type event live streamed for the populace to watch to see exactly how important the war is to the ones that want it.

ADZACKLY!

When I see actual combat veterans (not the cap edition) walking around on bionic legs, or in wheelchairs, maimed for life, missing arms, hands, eyes, and with their families suffering right along with'em, I don't feel patriotic, it makes me mad that we've wasted these young men's best years on exactly what you're talking about.

What you've said is the truth, and the war promoters should pay, and I believe will in the afterlife, but in the meantime, its all a very bad joke, and the actual fighters paying for something that wasn't worth fighting for. 

[Mule 11]

War is ultimately a contest of wills, national wills, which we saw in WW1, WW2, the first and second wars of independence ... but we haven't seen since WW2. War on terror? Nobody really cares. Its a sideshow, something the government is on about, gee so sad. As we used to say in OIF, Marines went to war, America went to Wal-Mart. The changing face of war is largely a reflection of the lack of interest by the average American in going to war. When was the last time Congress declared war?

But war is a racket (S. Butler) and America used to be the world leader in military gear, so we don't have to be at war ourselves. As long as other nations are at war, we have a market, and anybody who has served more than one tour has probably seen that our troops are often beta testers of gear, that we then take on multi-national exercises to product display to potential vendors. Drones, robots, etc. are all for sale, just like aircraft, artillery pieces, etc. My service spanned 87 to 22, during which time I saw dozens of programs shut down, gear phased out, but once it was stable, put on the market. Last two cases were the Osprey and the F-35, both of which are ridiculously expensive, and very high maintenance, but other nations are lining up for them.

As long as Americans are content that war is "not in my backyard" ... someone else's kids, someone else's home ... war by remote is pretty popular and lucrative. My idea of war by remote would be the political leaders of each nation in a gladiator type event live streamed for the populace to watch to see exactly how important the war is to the ones that want it.

I was going to say their kids but your idea is better as some don’t love their children. Welcome back…

[teamnelson]

Welcome back…

Thanks. My son reports to his first duty as an officer in June; he's a prior enlisted FMF Corpsman. He's now an Army Medical Officer, going to a Family Practice residency in Georgia. As y'all know, all my kids and their spouses are veterans; SIL is now a patrol officer with the Palmer PD. I served, my father, his father, and so on as far back as anyone can trace. Individually, it wasn't a waste - it was good for all of us to serve, and it did a lot of good for others in the moment. My best buddy's son graduates from Parris Island this Friday, following in his father's footsteps, couldn't be prouder of him.

But I'm ashamed of how our nation has used all of us, and seems hell bent to use the next generation. I don't want to see a single drop of American blood shed for anything but America, ever again. Not for Ukraine, not for Israel, not for India, not for Taiwan. I have little regard to business deals signed in the guise of alliances or treaties. We've all seen, thanks to DOGE - America has no allies, none, not a single one. We have had, and still have, dependents. I don't want my son, or my buddies son, dying for our dependents.

The longer I'm retired the more I come to appreciate Smedley Butler.

[Dee]

You got my curiosity up on Smedly Butler. Seems ole Smedly had the United States government figured out.

[teamnelson]

You got my curiosity up on Smedly Butler. Seems ole Smedly had the United States government figured out.

First person I ever knew to quote Smedley outside the Marine Corps was ol' TM7

[ironglow]

Welcome back…

Thanks. My son reports to his first duty as an officer in June; he's a prior enlisted FMF Corpsman. He's now an Army Medical Officer, going to a Family Practice residency in Georgia. As y'all know, all my kids and their spouses are veterans; SIL is now a patrol officer with the Palmer PD. I served, my father, his father, and so on as far back as anyone can trace. Individually, it wasn't a waste - it was good for all of us to serve, and it did a lot of good for others in the moment. My best buddy's son graduates from Parris Island this Friday, following in his father's footsteps, couldn't be prouder of him.

But I'm ashamed of how our nation has used all of us, and seems hell bent to use the next generation. I don't want to see a single drop of American blood shed for anything but America, ever again. Not for Ukraine, not for Israel, not for India, not for Taiwan. I have little regard to business deals signed in the guise of alliances or treaties. We've all seen, thanks to DOGE - America has no allies, none, not a single one. We have had, and still have, dependents. I don't want my son, or my buddies son, dying for our dependents.

The longer I'm retired the more I come to appreciate Smedley Butler.

  Congratulations to your son... his hard work and dilligence has paid off !  ..And yes, it seems Smedly was first mentioned here by TM !  In retrospect, TM was far more perceptive than I gave him credit for...

  The more Trump and DOGE dig into government corruption, the more I am saddened to find the great depths to which some "trusted leaders" have betrayed those who trusted..

  I am truly touched, when I see the news reports of young men and women who trusted the words of those "leaders" and went to war at trheir behest !  I refer to those who came home from war, not quite as complete as they were when they left to serve..

  Missing limbs, terrible burns and even minds not near what they once were.  I think of one case we see, when one of their helping groups shows the
 dire situation.  This young man is confined to a chair..but even worse, his mind was grossly affected.  His parents care for him now, but they are beyond middle age...surely they must grieve what could happen once trhey have left the scene..

  I thank God, that apparently my prayers for my grandson were effective. Serving as a Marine in a special operations unit..Marines around him were wounded and killed..but somehow he was not wounded.  ..And praise God, since then he has only shown a single brief incident where PTSD may have  ehad a part !

  May God strengthen the DOGE to uncover the rot and root it out like a pernicious tooth cavity !

  Welcome back, TN  !
 

[AtlLaw]

Well, I'd say welcome back TN but I just got back myself and didn't know you were missing!
You must be really proud of your son!  Congrats!
I just found out one of my grandchildren, graduating from HS next month, has already enlisted in the Navy.  First Navy man in the family since my father went off to fight the Kaiser in 1917!  And he's been selected for Nuclear Power school, whatever that entails... 

[teamnelson]

Well, I'd say welcome back TN but I just got back myself and didn't know you were missing!
You must be really proud of your son!  Congrats!
I just found out one of my grandchildren, graduating from HS next month, has already enlisted in the Navy.  First Navy man in the family since my father went off to fight the Kaiser in 1917!  And he's been selected for Nuclear Power school, whatever that entails... 

Must be smart! Nuke power is a long tough school with a pretty high attrition rate. But the jobs after he gets out are some of the highest paying a 20 something can find. Not gonna lie - the job is at sea, and hours are tough. Send him lots of care packages!

Bravo Zulu!
CDR, USN ret.

[Bob Riebe]

 My cousin (who was busted up pretty good in an Army boot camp accident) his son joined the Marines.
He wanted to be a combat soldier.
He ended  up with back problems but not bad enough to leave the Marines; what Biden did to the military and Marines caused him to put in the years necessary to get a decent military retirement but he loathed what the Marines had become.

Education he got going to school to be an officer, has allowed him now that he retired to go back to Montana, where his wife's father lives and get a six figure job.
When he signed up he had intended to be a lifer.