Author Topic: Tikka Customer Service or Lack Thereof (Read 3195 times)

Muddyboots · « **on:** March 09, 2004, 01:21:49 PM »

Just thought I'd pass along that so far after 5 weeks and 2 emails to Tikka in Finland, 2 emails to BerretaUSA and 1 email to Sako in Finland = zip, nada, zilch, zero response. I truly hope that if anyone of y'all have any problems with your Tikka, you are in for a treat. At least, Remington responds. You may not like their answer but at least they acknowledge you exist. I am compiling all my communications and sending an international overnight to their Sako CEO explaining why I will now never own one of their products and plan to sell off their products that I do have as soon as practical for me. Hope you fellow Tikka owners have better luck than me.
Muddyboots

Zachary · « **Reply #1 on:** March 09, 2004, 02:06:18 PM »

Muddyboots,

I own several Tikkas and never had a problem. In fact, of the many people that I know that have Tikkas, none of them have had problems either.

I'm really curious - What problem did you have with your Tikka? What model/caliber is it?

Granted, I'm a huge Tikka fan, but I'm as neutral and open minded as I can be. I'd really like to know.

Zachary

Muddyboots · « **Reply #2 on:** March 09, 2004, 02:25:11 PM »

Zachary,
I've posted up on this issue before so it isn't really new news so to speak. My T-3 is reamed 0.200 over SAAMI spec's for the 300 WSM which presents a ton of problems for a reloader. What really ticks me off is their head in the sand attitude. I can't believe my emails haven't been read by someone. I was very cordial in my inquiries to them so it isn't like I flamed off on them. All I want is an explanation and possibly what can be done to resolve my problem. Pretty reasonable questions since they are based upon industry accepted engineering standards and not something pulled out of dark moist places. Since my original emails, I have also found out that Tikka reams the .270 WSM about 0.200 over as well which really affects reloading for that caliber. Recent Shooting Times article even noted the Tikka chamber was about 0.200 and the velocity was about 150 fps slower than a Savage that was tested alongside of it in same bullet weights etc. I wish I could have seen this article before I bought it but it was after I purchased rifle. Monday morning QB again. Fish were biting yesterday. I've politely asked why and what can be done. I guess they think I will go away eventually. They are right but not as a Sako/Tikka/Berreta owner.

If you are a reloader or plan to reload for a Tikka, you really need to be aware of this issue since it will prevent you from reloading many of the bullet weights that you will probably want to reload. What is amazing is the magazine is designed for SAAMI specs of 2.860 so I cannot even stretch out the loads to take advantage of the longer throat even if I wanted to. What this all means is the WSM loses velocity and pressure due to the long throat, thus, reduces the rounds performance. If you shoot nothing but factory, then you will never know the difference. The overall quality is not an issue so it is frustrating to have a nice rifle but can't tune it up to get max performance out of it.
Muddyboots

Omaha-BeenGlockin · « **Reply #3 on:** March 09, 2004, 04:45:31 PM »

They are probably going to tell you---like EVERY other manufacturor will tell you------to use factory new ammuntion in your rifle-----and won't honor any warrenty claims from use of reloads.

Just my take on it.

Iowegan · « **Reply #4 on:** March 09, 2004, 06:00:49 PM »

Omaha is right. Furthermore, the chambers aren't cut deeper, they use a different chamber technology than most American made guns. Sakos and Tikkas have a tapered forcing cone (11-13 degrees) where American made rifles have a free bore that abruptly stops where the lands start. In a Tikka, you don't need to seat the bullets out, SAAMI specs are fine. Your problem is a non-problem.

The reason for seating bullets out farther is to minimize bullet damage when the bullet strikes the bore under considerable pressure. In a Tikka, the free bore tapers and greatly reduces bullet strike damage.

I invented and manufacture chamber gauges and bullet seating depth gauges. I had a customer with a Tikka tell me the bullet seating tool wouldn't work in his gun. I set out to find the reason and discovered the tapered forcing cone.

Sako & Tikka claim their guns are accurate to 1 MOA out-of-the-box. They also claim the new chamber technology reduces throat erosion. I find both of these features are very valuable. Reloading for these guns should be very forgiving.

Zachary · « **Reply #5 on:** March 10, 2004, 03:21:35 AM »

Muddyboots,

Like you, I also recently purchased a Tikka T3 (mine's a stainless) in .300WSM. And I also read that same article after I purchased the gun.

I'm sorry to hear about your experience with Tikka's (Beretta's) service - there's no excuse for that. And Yes, I agree that your questions are standard questions that should be answered fairly quickly.

I'm not a reloader, but I think that this longer throat will still affect velocity because that Shooting Times article still showed the numbers on factory ammo - no, velocity didn't drop 200 fps, but there were, if I remember correctly, in the 100 fps range - kinda significant when you relate it to the cartridge's actual performance potential.

I wonder how my T3 will compare to my Kimber 8400 also in .300WSM when it comes in.

Zachary

Muddyboots · « **Reply #6 on:** March 10, 2004, 06:46:10 AM »

I agre with Iowegan except that when they cut their chamber that way you do lose velocity which you wouldn't have otherwise. I just don't like owning a rifle that can never be maximized to the performance that is possible. Accuracy is OK but again it comes down to what I expect to be able to get out my rifles and I cannot do that with the Tikka. I had a Sako 75 7RM that wasn't cut as you stated either. In fact it was a bit on the short side but it was OK since I shot primarily 160's out it. All I have now is a slightly souped up 06 instead of being closer to the 300WM. I wanted to have a carry rifle as an alternative to the 300 WM. The best I can get it to do with 180's is slightly over 2900 fps. Sure that is somewhat OK but it should have been a lot better. That is like buying a 300WM that will never be able to be loaded up to its maximum potential. There is no point in having a rifle that is potentially capable of better performance but being prevented from getting it there due to a buil tin limitation. Its like having a governor on a Corvette so it performs like a Chevette. If all I wanted was a souped up 06 this wouldn't be an issue. I just don't like owning a rifle that has built in limitations.

Now having said the above, if BerretaUSA, Sako or Tikka comes back to me and provides a detailed explanation I may consider keeping it based upon what Iowegan stated. I may consider living with the reduced performance if it provides alternative benefits. I am just annoyed right now with their lack of response and the inability to bring the performance of the T-3 up to where other 300 WSM's operate. Geez, if this was a real technical problem, I'd be SOL without a rifle. There is no excuse for lack of response period.
Muddyboots

Zachary · « **Reply #7 on:** March 10, 2004, 08:51:21 AM »

Muddyboots,

Regarding the issue of a longer throat, would I be correct in stating that, if you used much longer bullets - or even seat them further out, then the distance between the end of the bullet and the end of the throat would be less and thus velocity would be somewhat restored? I ask this because 180 grain barnes X and Triple Shock bullets are very long for their weight (and so are the Nosler Accubonds).

What are your thoughts?

Zachary

longwinters · « **Reply #8 on:** March 10, 2004, 11:45:46 AM »

I had responded to another post on the Sako/Tikka response time. I had excellent response time from Sako in Finland concerning a question I had about my .308. It is rather disappointing to hear of you having just the opposite experience. I do not tend to be very patient concerning such things and would probably bite the bullet and call them if I had not heard in a couple of weeks after my 1st request. Just a thought, are you sure your e-mails are getting thru? Good luck

long

Muddyboots · « **Reply #9 on:** March 10, 2004, 11:55:48 AM »

Longwinters,
I not only know it got through it was hand delivered to the BerretaUSA national rep at the Shot Show. I plan on sending an overnight with documentation just to show them the paper trail and see what results.

Zachary,
The longer throat could help with Barnes except when the magazine is designed for SAAMI specs so you lose what could have been gained unless you use the rifle as a single shot. I would have been OK with the longer throat if I could have set out the 180's to accommodate them better but I can't due to magazine restriction. Kind of a catch 22 built in.
Muddyboots

Power · « **Reply #10 on:** March 19, 2004, 07:43:37 PM »

Not the best solution but have you explored the option of filing part of the magazine away to accommodate a longer OAL? I know on the Tikka there may not be much option for that but I did that same thing on my A-bolt I used to have so I could shoot Scirocco's. Or you might try bending the magazine nose to accommodate.

What you state about your response to your cries for help is not very professional on Beretta's part. They really should pick up the slack and get back to you. Just wondering if you've tried calling them? Sometimes companies can be bad at one means of contact but excellent at another. Your dealer that sold you the gun might be able to help too, they usually have a rep they call in person and can usually help better than doing it yourself. Just offering help.

Good luck and keep us posted.

-Power, Tikka-owner

Muddyboots · « **Reply #11 on:** March 24, 2004, 06:28:17 AM »

Power,
Unfortunately, one of the positives (from my perspective anyway since I like polymer technology) of the T-3 is the polymer magazine which prevents you from expanding the OAL. Calls have gone unanswered, hand delivered to representatives have gone unanswered. I am midst of building house so right now this has taken back seat a bit but I will never own another Berretta product. I was in process of deciding on Sako 75 in 338WM but now I am probably going with another Sendero. I am documenting all correspondence and packaging it up and sending it to the El Presidente of Berreta and thank him for personal touch his organization has provided to a respectable customer. I purchase a rifle about every other year and I will never own another product from them. In fact, my Tikka is on board at club at discounted price to get rid of it ASAP. I can't even think to shoot it anymore since just holding it twists my shorts when I think of their "blow off" of a customer. I have read about complaints about Remington, Ruger and US Repeating but I can honestly say I have had really good luck with Remington. Always got right back to me. May not like their response but that is business. They have made good when it counted. TC has been good to me as well. So where do you think I shop now? Push feed versus CRF doesn't matter to me. Dangerous game discussion is nice but if that was the case, I pick up a Benelli slug gun and there is nothing better at close range period nor more reliable than a Benelli. If I was really concerned over the CRF I may own one for that kind of hunt but 99.99% of my hunting is elk, deer so push feed is fine with me. I have a Sendero in 300WM that groups inside an inch at 200 yds with 200 gr Accubonds so I have been really pleased with the Remingtons so far. Say what you want, if it shoots you keep it.
Muddyboots

Omaha-BeenGlockin · « **Reply #12 on:** March 24, 2004, 07:11:36 AM »

Better forget about that Benelli too----they are owned by Beretta also.

So let me get this straight---you'll buy a junk Remington over a Sako----because you have a product from Tikka that works just fine.

Also --no .338 Win in Remington rifles------you'll be stuck with .338 Ultra---which is plain bad news all the way around.

Maybe you'll get their attention after blowin yourself up using non-standard handloads.

Whatever---to each his own ---I guess.

Zachary · « **Reply #13 on:** March 24, 2004, 08:37:31 AM »

Muddyboots has a right to be upset. Heck, I would be upset too. However, I, personally speaking, would balance customer service with product quality. I DO have a problem with, in the WSM offerings, that the OAL being longer, and the magazine not being long enough, and thus a lower velocity, but I would buy another cartridge in a heartbeat from Tikka or Sako.

Zachary

Muddyboots · « **Reply #14 on:** March 24, 2004, 03:50:48 PM »

Omaha,
This is what makes the world go around is difference of opinion. I use any product that works and serves me well. I have never had any trouble with any Remington I have ever owned and I shoot over 2,000 rounds a year. Customer service is part of the total package. A rifle being built to accepted industry standards is a reasonable expectation or at least a communication to otherwise. Explain to me non-standard handloads? I have never had any pressure problems or accuracy problems because my loads are taylored to the rifle for optimum accuracy (not macho velocity) which in most cases tends to be well below max loads. I have never exceeded any published literature on a specific load and every load is worked up from at least 5 gr below max. So how do you arrive at non-standard handloads? The fact I load and adjust to specific OAL for each and every round that is taylored to the load to achieve best barrel harmonics? Boy I guess I really do load non-standard as well as evry other bench shooter I know.

As far as I am concerned, the Tikka is OK and I have said it is except it doesn't meet my expectations for the way I reload. Therefore it doesn't work fine for the manner in which I reload which is shared by many reloaders. Savage and Browning both ream to 2.860 which is what I expected. I reload a certain way that has been very successful for me. I would also point out that I have never had a Sako 300WM shoot as well as the Sendero in 300WM can deliver. I knock the snot out if carrying it at 11,000 ft, well below zero and it keeps holding zero and delivers when I ask it to. If that is junk then we should all be so lucky. I also have access to another Sendero in 338WM that is sitting in a distributors inventory so they are still out there even though they may have gone by the boards.

I won't do business with any company that won't treat me with respect as a customer. Lousy service is clearly a business accepted indicator of the total quality a company supplies with their product. As far as I am concerned, the quality of Tikka is suspect if they cannot respect or respond to a reasonable inquiry. I don't care if they tell me I am all wet just don't ignore me as a customer. Its kind of interesting to see the arrogance out here on what rifle is the best or whether CRF is all that should use or else you a complete butt head. I have at least 5 different rifle manufacturers in my safe. All the rifles shoot the way I expect them to. Some have "better" (who's opinion?) features than others and others just feel right. I respect what you choose to shoot and don't care whether I am holding a Remington, Sako, Browning, Savage as long as I have the time to shoot. If you don't like the rifle then don't use it. Simple as that.
Muddyboots

Zachary · « **Reply #15 on:** March 26, 2004, 01:30:36 PM »

Muddyboots,

I was wondering....do you know if this longer throat is only on Tikkas WSMs or is it on all of the cartridges, both standard and long magnum (ie. .300 Win. Mag., .338 Win. Mag., etc.)?

Zachary

Muddyboots · « **Reply #16 on:** March 26, 2004, 03:30:08 PM »

Zachary,
I really don't know but I know where there is a 300 WM in a Tikka WH and if he lets me measure it I will post up results.
MB

Sigma · « **Reply #17 on:** March 26, 2004, 03:35:11 PM »

Muddyboots, I've been following your thread with interest. I'm looking at a T3 in 6.5x55, do you think I'll have any problems?

Regards

Muddyboots · « **Reply #18 on:** March 26, 2004, 04:00:38 PM »

Sigma,
The T-3 is fine operationally. Where I am having problems is how I like to reload as well as an awful lot of folks out there. If you shoot factory, I think it will do fine for you. If you reload, it may have a long throat which may or may not bother you. I don't like long throats since it prevents me from loading one diameter in case and still stay close to the lands. weatherby's have long throats and everyone knows it. I don't have a Weatherby for that reason. Just the way I do things. I didn't know that at the time I bought it so I will probably take a loss to move it along. I always liked the 6.5x55 and have thought of getting one. In fact there is a really nice article in this month's Handloader on the 6.5 if interested. getting back to the T-3, it shoots OK with Factory and shot well when I was able to get close to lands but I lost velocity due to the problems I described above. The rifle has a polymer magazine which was limited to 2.880 OAL so it kept the OAL that I could load to down as well. Rounds did feed well which can be a problem with the sausage style cartridges. Trigger was OK. Didn't adjust as well as I would hope. The scope rings that came with it seem OK but not as robust as I would like them to be. If not for the long throat, I would say I would be fairly happy with it. But I am finicky about reloading so it will probably go at some time or another. Iowegan posted up that he felt the long throat was a benefit since it was designed to reduce throat erosion. I have no issue with that but it wasn't published so I would not have bought it if I knew that. What really is kind of twist here this rifle is first rifle I ever bought without measuring the chamber first. Sort of reinforces my need to do that in future rifles. One last thing, I am not sure if the throat is relatve to WSM's or to all calibers so the 6.5 may be perfectly fine. Good luck getting answer from Tikka.
Muddyboots

Zachary · « **Reply #19 on:** March 27, 2004, 02:08:51 AM »

Quote from: Muddyboots

Zachary,
I really don't know but I know where there is a 300 WM in a Tikka WH and if he lets me measure it I will post up results.
MB

I'm sorry Muddyboots, but I didn't explain it correctly. What I meant was if all T3s have longer throats, or is it just the WSM T3s that have the longer throats?

I have quite a few Tikka WHs (although I have never checked the velocity, nor do I know if they have longer throats either). But I'm thinking about buying another T3 (in either .300 Win Mag or .338 Win Mag) and was wondering if these T3s also have the longer throats.

Thanks,
Zachary

Ruttinbuck · « **Reply #20 on:** March 27, 2004, 04:59:50 PM »

My T3 hunter in 300 winmag is clip limited for COL at 3.34".The chamber is 3.35"+/-.I did the blackened bullet test and the difference in length is a fraction of the cannular ring on the bullet.I am relatively new to the chamber measuring game but I am pretty sure {did it 3x} I have the measurement right.I am getting holes touching and 2 in same hole on paper,so I think I am close to the lands.

Zachary · « **Reply #21 on:** March 28, 2004, 12:47:26 AM »

What ammo are you using? Also, have you checked the velocity?

Zachary

Ruttinbuck · « **Reply #22 on:** March 28, 2004, 03:43:15 AM »

I was using Win super X 150gr PP to break in and collect some brass.I am now handloading hornady 165gr&180gr BTSP.No I have'nt checked the velocity,the 150gr were advertised at 3290 FPS MV.

Zachary · « **Reply #23 on:** March 28, 2004, 05:36:38 AM »

Those are some pretty impressive groups with just plain jane factory Power Point ammo!

Zachary

Ruttinbuck · « **Reply #24 on:** March 28, 2004, 05:39:42 AM »

that group was with 71.5 gr IMR4831,180gr BTSP.I did however get holes touching with the factory ammo.

Deep Impact · « **Reply #25 on:** April 28, 2004, 06:45:54 AM »

Hello to all ! This is a great Forum and my first Post is about the E-Mail from Sako/Tikka dealing with the Headspace/ Freebore in the T3 .300WSM.
They needed only about 2 hours to answer my E-Mail. Even if someone doesent like the words, i was very impressed by the speed of the response! By the way, i live in Canada BC!

"Rumors are rumors.We are building our rifles according to the specs of C.I.P. that should be the same as the Saami ,as the
cartridge is an American development.These guns are working and they do shoot accurately.Naturally, shooting a factory load will expand the case to the individual dimensions of the rifle, that you , as a reloader should maintain, by only neck sizing the cases.
This way it is possible to go one step further that any factory to achieve the very best results as far as accuracy is conserned.
If someone means with the extra 0,2 mm, that we are using a short throat or "lead" as in other mag cartridges , that is what we do, but this has nothing to do with head space.Fa. Clymer is making 2 kinds of chamber reamers: the original "funnel throat" which
is more critical for reloaders than the normal type. This is why we use the latter. There is no effect on the performance or accuracy.
Best regards"
Pentti.Louhisola@sako.fi
-----Alkuperäinen viesti-----
Lähettäjä: ** Export_Info **
Lähetetty: 19. huhtikuuta 2004 8:30
Vastaanottaja: Pentti Louhisola
Aihe: VL: Excessive Headspace

After digging a bit deeper they responded again!

Well! These rifle models that we build, are not Bench Rest rifles.The speculation with a too long throat is therefore unnessesary.
The accuracy is there! Can you show us results from any other manufacturer , that their standard production hunting rifle
is more accurate?As you are a reloader, you should know. With good bullets and a proper load these rifles will shoot well
under 1 MOA, In practice this means, that you can make a deadly shot at a deer or similar size game animal to over 500
yards distance. This in turn means, that the hunting result does not depend on the rifle mainly, but other factors contributing
to much larger errors in long range shooting.We are making these rifles to serve the hunter as a reliable tool for years, normally they will endure the life of a hunter and more..

Furthermore about the discussions in the net: Much of the inaccurate chat is done by persons who do not exactly know
what they are talking about. Headspace in the WSM cartridges is defined as a certain distance from the shoulder surface
of the case to the bolt face.This is important for the safety and function of the rifle. The tolerances in headspace are small, but in principle, the largest cartridge must fit into a minimum chamber and on the other hand the smallest cartridge must be safe to fire
in the maximum chamber.
The lead or throat after the chamber is a totally different thing, and has nothing to do with the headspace .
There are several forms and measures of the rifling after the throat, and these are very often characteristic to the manufacturer.
In many calibers, the bullet seated according to factory (cartridge makers) specification is always short of touching the
rifling. Then , in many rifles, the cartridges also can be loaded a bit longer, and still they can be fed from the magazine.
Then there are others, where this is not possible.
To feed properly from a magazine, cartridges that are fat and relatively short like the WSM cartridges, the magazine measurements
are critical. If there is too much space lengthwise, the will be feeding difficulties and damaged bullet tips because cartridges move in
magazine due to the recoil from previous firings.

I have many hunting rifles muself.I am a very keen and experienced reloader.I have made extensive firing and loading tests
in most of mu rifles.You are talking about loosing velocity because of freebore. This is not the case, change to a diffrent powder and primer combination and measure the velocities. You will notice, that the loss of velocity is of no importance at all.More contributing
factors to the velocity are: Correct type of powder and primer, barrel legth,internal measurements and surface quality of the barrels
and naturally the material and the construction of the bullet.
Reloading is interesting. To get good results a good rifle with a good barrel and sound contruction is essencial. Sako makes such
rifles: both Tikka and Sako rifles belong to the very best in the world, when production rifles are concerned.

Best regards
Pentti.Louhisola@sako.fi
-----Alkuperäinen viesti-----

[/u][/b]

Deep Impact · « **Reply #26 on:** April 30, 2004, 07:26:37 PM »

hmmm....nobody???
first a real bad attitude about a rifle manufacturer....and now nothing!? The guy from Sako answered 2 of my E-Mails within 24 hours!
And thank you all for the nice welcome.....i'm out of here...pooof!! :noway:

longwinters · « **Reply #27 on:** May 01, 2004, 03:54:13 AM »

Deep Impact,

Sorry, I was so engrossed with the info you got for us that I plumb forgot to be polite and welcome you to the forum. It is not unusual for responses to be non-existent for a day or two and then a person will get several. This topic has gone on for a while and so I think guys are not on top of it as they were a couple of weeks ago. But hopefully you read this and stick around. Send me a pm if you like. I would enjoy talking to you.

long

Wolfe · « **Reply #28 on:** May 01, 2004, 05:46:35 AM »

Thanks for posting those and welcome to the forum. I am not yet a reloader so some of that stuff made no sense. I emailed Berretta about the lack of t3 availability and have recieved 0 response in 3 days. Looks like tikka/sako may be the best option for getting emails answered.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #29 on:** May 01, 2004, 06:12:32 AM »

Quote from: Wolfe

Thanks for posting those and welcome to the forum. I am not yet a reloader so some of that stuff made no sense. I emailed Berretta about the lack of t3 availability and have recieved 0 response in 3 days. Looks like tikka/sako may be the best option for getting emails answered.

I call Berretta the other day and was help right away with my Tikka questions and also received a owner manual I requested in 2 day from talking to them. I found calling people speeds up the process. :grin:

Deep Impact welcome to the board, sometimes it takes a couple of day for people to get back to the board. Unlike me I come here everyday.