Author Topic: 60% of adults do NOT believe that JESUS is the only way to Heaven, believe in bu  (Read 8084 times)

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Offline ironglow

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.From TN..

  "
Conservative non-denominational churches can rarely afford to keep a pastor of any kind; the more conservative the smaller the church, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but practically speaking, America doesn't tithe - they tip, even amongst conservatives. I know many good godly men who felt called to leave a career (like the disciples) to study for a few years (like the disciples) before they went into full time ministry, and still couldn't find a church that wanted a conservative pastor and paid a living wage - too small. Many conservative churches then have gone to looking for kids with no wisdom or experience, or retirees who may have other income. When I was bivocational 20 years ago, over 60% of SBC pastors were bivocational. I understand that number has shrunk - too hard to keep both jobs up today. I left the SBC, and have been CBA for some time because their really not a denomination, and more conservative where it matters than the SBC was headed. But I sense the urban churches in the CBA now are going "relevant" while the rural churches are struggling to stay conservative and keep a pulpit full, between what they can afford to pay and who is out there willing to lead a conservative church. I am grateful to have been called to one such and gladly retired earlier than I could from the Navy so as to be young enough to be able to give them a few decades hopefully. But both the church and I recognize how rare it is to make that kind of connection."



  I don't want to be misunderstood in the "denomination" debate.  Although I presently am a member of a Nondenominational church, I was schooled by a Baptist seminary and lived about 25 years as a Baptist.

  I have no  problem with denominations, so long as they are  not overwhelmed by the "corporation"..  I see most of the non-denominational, "mega churches", as no different than the top heavy denominational ones. Being so top heavy..makes they eligible for "capsize" today.

  If an independent Baptist were to attend a service in our church, he/she would likely feel very much at home.  I can live with or without the Baptist label.

  My non-denominational church is a conservative body.  Perhaps it is regional, but we had our previous pastor from 1984 until about 2003, until illness caused his departure.
  Our present pastor has served since then, and I don't see anything other than age or health ending that..so long as he stays as biblical as he is.
   Tithing?  Being an elder, I don't aid in collections, so I have no idea what anyone drops in the plate.  however at a recent leadership meeting I brought up the idea that we may want to take on more good missions, since no local church should "sit on" the bank account our church has. ..And our pastor is paid a decent wage.

  Maintaining a Biblical local church, takes an ecclesia that are Biblically trained and conversant.  While I assume you have seen congregations that are neglectful with training..surely ours is not.

  We have Bible instruction every Sunday morning, before worship.  Then there are Bible studies open on Tuesday and Thursday evenings, along with prayer services available at a different hour on each of those two days.

  Is all just "hunky-dory' with me?  No, not exactly..I like the old hymns, while we still use some, our music leans toward more "contemporary".
  OK..I am not the ONLY person in our church, and if that answers it for most, along with bringing others to Jesus, I'll not complain.  I am not a "musically inclined " person anyway.

  So how is it working?  I estimate our local church has grown by about 15 or 20 percent during this "plan-demic"..

  If there were a mega church just 10 miles away..I would likely not ever stop by !

  One thing that marks our church among other small churches..is the obvious agape love.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Dee

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  If an independent Baptist were to attend a service in our church, he/she would likely feel very much at home.  I can live with or without the Baptist label.

Likewise,
Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.

Offline ironglow

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   Sample of our pastor preaching..i'll leave it up for a short while:

  https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=1278042402656734&ref=watch_permalink

  Right now, our video cam is not as mobile as it once was, so keep that in mind.

  Pastor & family are away this week, I stood in.  If this link works, i may post my message (on the torn veil), in the next couple weeks.

  Teaching Bible on Tuesdays or Thursdays, our preacher often uses visual aids..from perhaps Dr David Jeremiah or less often, Chip Ingraham.

  I normally don't use recorded message so much as other graphics..    Historical, archaeological or contemporary historians or demographic considerations, for instance.
Creationism...I often quote Dr. Stephen Meyer or Dr. James Tour   ...For doctrine, I cannot find yet, where I can fault Mike Winger (Youtube).

  Of course in philosophy, the mathematician, Dr. John Lennox, can add much to any discussion.

 
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ironglow

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  From Dee;

  " Even non catholic Mexican churches are denominational. Usually Baptist."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  I suspect that to be true, and it can work somewhat to our benefit !  Here's how I see it..

  Biden & Co. are bringing in all those from south of the border, figuring they will all eventually be Demonrats.

 Perhaps most of them will, but unlike Biden & Pelosi, although they claim to be "devout Catholics"..they are reprobate scams.

  Many of those people coming across the border do have values..although not enough to stop them from coming across..except for children.

  If we Christians do our job of evangelization, we can have them thinking and doing right, despite the Demonrat plans.

  Sure, certainly not all, but a fair percentage, if we do our job..  What do you think?
.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Dee

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I had a new garage door opener put in today. Mexican owned and operated. They hate Biden.
My favorite restaurant. Mexican owned. He hates Biden.

These are Mexicans that are United States citizens.
Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.

Offline ironglow

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I had a new garage door opener put in today. Mexican owned and operated. They hate Biden.
My favorite restaurant. Mexican owned. He hates Biden.

These are Mexicans that are United States citizens.

  Yes, I know many Mexican Americans are of the same mind we are.  Percentage wise, evangelical Christians favor the Trump/conservative side.  So, do you think we stand a chance that some of the illegals can be evangelized and brought to the same frame of mind.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)
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Offline Dee

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I'm sure some are already Christian, some Islamic, some atheists, some satanic, some honest, many criminals, and very few English speaking, with little education.
They are coming for the advertised freebies. Free food, free housing, free medical, free education, free government checks, and an opportunity to become a Democratic voter.
Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.

Offline teamnelson

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Itd be more accurate to say all Separatists were Puritans, but not all Puritans were Separatists. The Separatists were all Puritan in their theology, and many of the preachers and writers of the Puritan movement also wanted to separate from CofE.

Pablum is pablum still regardless of who serves it or why. If we were to judge a theological perspective on the basis of its members behavior or multi generational commitment to sound doctrine, we Baptists would not do so hot. I’m not going to waste my time blaming “all those other churches” when Gods given me my own church to serve. As long as we treat this like somebody else’s problem, it’s not gonna go away.

As for headcounts, for my island those numbers are true. Whose perception is normative? I leave it to the denominations to have those stats, and they claim they are shrinking in all the ways for all the reasons discussed. If that’s not what you see locally then that means it’s even worse somewhere else.

My own little “denomination” the CBA gave up denominational structure in the early 2000s; were a network of regional pastors conferences now, with no paid staff. Even still citing public perception the lead pastors of the big cities voted to change our name to Venture. Denominational language even though we haven’t been one for years is now offensive to seekers they claim. The church I’ll be serving isn’t gonna take Baptist out of our name on my watch. Even though we are technically not a denomination and very independent. And we’re not going to serve pablum.

held fast

Offline ironglow

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Itd be more accurate to say all Separatists were Puritans, but not all Puritans were Separatists. The Separatists were all Puritan in their theology, and many of the preachers and writers of the Puritan movement also wanted to separate from CofE. 
    I must disagree that the two are essentially the same.  The Puritans still wanted the king to lead their church, but wanted to purge some of the purely Roman Catholic practices and characteristics from it, while the Separatists, simply wanted nothing to do with it ! . From a historic point of view, I see relatively large differences between the two. Both could legitimately be called 'pilgrims', in that they both took a long journey, for religious purposes.
   Beyond that, there are many differences, 1) the Separatists were persecuted and hunted by the king, while the Puritans were tolerated by the royals. Some of the Separatists were eking out a living around around Scrooby, England..while more fled to Holland, where they were at least 'tolerated', even though they had to work menial jobs.
 2) Due to these circumstances, the Separatists were comparatively poor.  The Separatists came to the New World, so as to escape persecution, live their faith and hopefully, to make a decent living.  By contrast, the Puritans were financially well off..and their venture into New England, was a business venture. The Puritans were still "establishment"..while the Separatists were "outlaws", who hoped to be more or less ignored by the king..from 3,000 miles away.
   THe Separatists used the Geneva Bible, which had marginal notes which frowned upon the aristocracy..which is why King James had his Bible published in 1611..and the Puritans dutifully followed.

  The fancy black & white uniform with top hat and silver buckle shoes, was worn by the Puritans to church..the poorer separatists had simple, homespun clothes, such as the farmers of England wore at the time. I explained how the Puritans eventually took over New England and the Separatists for the most part migrated to become Baptists.
  Recommended reading..(IMO) "MAYFLOWER"..by Nathaniel Philbrick..   From about their second year, Gov Bradford led the Separatists for 30 years, and he kept a daily journal, which was found in England a few years ago and sent to the Plymouth Museum in Massachusetts.  That is available in print today...a good read.


Pablum is pablum still regardless of who serves it or why. If we were to judge a theological perspective on the basis of its members behavior or multi generational commitment to sound doctrine, we Baptists would not do so hot. I’m not going to waste my time blaming “all those other churches” when Gods given me my own church to serve. As long as we treat this like somebody else’s problem, it’s not gonna go away.

As for headcounts, for my island those numbers are true. Whose perception is normative? I leave it to the denominations to have those stats, and they claim they are shrinking in all the ways for all the reasons discussed. If that’s not what you see locally then that means it’s even worse somewhere else.
 
  Headcounts for headcounts sake is wasted time. As I observe locally, here in our small hamlet (maybe 700 people) we have 4 churches to serve the area.  The United Methodists have perhaps 7 regulars, all seniors.  There is an evangelical that leans pentecostal..took over a small, closed Catholic church..grew initally, but seem to be fading. Two, including the one I attend, are basically Baptist in practice.  Both are growing, especially the one where I attend.

My own little “denomination” the CBA gave up denominational structure in the early 2000s; were a network of regional pastors conferences now, with no paid staff. Even still citing public perception the lead pastors of the big cities voted to change our name to Venture. Denominational language even though we haven’t been one for years is now offensive to seekers they claim. The church I’ll be serving isn’t gonna take Baptist out of our name on my watch. Even though we are technically not a denomination and very independent. And we’re not going to serve pablum.

   ..Sounds much like our situation.  Our pastor is part of a conference located in central Ohio, and attends their several day meetings, perhaps twice a year. [/quote]

  Blue letters...mine
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Dee

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From the north of Dallas area there are independent churches springing up in the form of "Cowboy churches". Some even have their very own "cowboy version" of the Bible, and some use what ever Bible version they choose.
Most seem to share the same doctrine a Baptist church would have.
I hear different opinions on different churches.
I think younger folks are looking for a church with spiritual depth, but having little Christian background, may or may not recognize it if they saw it.

There is a little independent Baptist church in the little town I've moved to in west Texas I'm gonna check out, I've already heard there's infighting in the larger Southern Baptist church here.
My goal is to find a straightforward Bible believing church with basic Baptist doctrine that isn't using all the latest "study programs" some California clown dreamed up using 9 versions of the Bible, and snippets of scripture.
You have  to look, but there is bound to be a few of those little Baptist churches out there still using "the KISS method" of ministry.
Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.

Offline ironglow

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From the north of Dallas area there are independent churches springing up in the form of "Cowboy churches". Some even have their very own "cowboy version" of the Bible, and some use what ever Bible version they choose.
Most seem to share the same doctrine a Baptist church would have.
I hear different opinions on different churches.
I think younger folks are looking for a church with spiritual depth, but having little Christian background, may or may not recognize it if they saw it.

There is a little independent Baptist church in the little town I've moved to in west Texas I'm gonna check out, I've already heard there's infighting in the larger Southern Baptist church here.
My goal is to find a straightforward Bible believing church with basic Baptist doctrine that isn't using all the latest "study programs" some California clown dreamed up using 9 versions of the Bible, and snippets of scripture.
You have  to look, but there is bound to be a few of those little Baptist churches out there still using "the KISS method" of ministry.

  Sounds like good logic to me, Dee..  Hope that little church in town works out for you..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline teamnelson

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Itd be more accurate to say all Separatists were Puritans, but not all Puritans were Separatists. The Separatists were all Puritan in their theology, and many of the preachers and writers of the Puritan movement also wanted to separate from CofE. 
    I must disagree that the two are essentially the same.  The Puritans still wanted the king to lead their church, but wanted to purge some of the purely Roman Catholic practices and characteristics from it, while the Separatists, simply wanted nothing to do with it ! . From a historic point of view, I see relatively large differences between the two. Both could legitimately be called 'pilgrims', in that they both took a long journey, for religious purposes.
   Beyond that, there are many differences, 1) the Separatists were persecuted and hunted by the king, while the Puritans were tolerated by the royals. Some of the Separatists were ekeing out a living around around Scrooby, England..while more fled to Holland, where they were at least 'tolerated', even though they had to work menial jobs.
 2) Due to these circumstances, the Separatists were comparatively poor.  The Separatists came to the New World, so as to escape persecution, live their faith and hopefully, to make a decent living.  By contrast, the Puritans were financially well off..and their venture into New England, was a business venture. The Puritans were still "establishment"..while the Separatists were "outlaws", who hoped to be more or less ignored by the king..from 3,000 miles away.
   THe Separatists used the Geneva Bible, which had marginal notes which frowned upon the aristocracy..which is why King James had his Bible published in 1611..and the Puritans dutifully followed.

  The fancy black & white uniform with top hat and silver buckle shoes, was worn by the Puritans to church..the poorer separatists had simple, homespun clothes, such as the farmers of England wore at the time. I explained how the Puritans eventually took over New England and the Separatists for the most part migrated to become Baptists.
  Recommended reading..(IMO) "MAYFLOWER"..by Nathaniel Philbrick..   From about their second year, Gov Bradford led the Separatists for 30 years, and he kept a daily journal, which was found in England a few years ago and sent to the Plymouth Museum in Massachusetts.  That is available in print today...a good read.


At no point did you address their theology my friend, just their politics. All separatists politically were puritans doctrinally, but not all puritans were separatists. It was for their shared theology that they were all persecuted out of England, or else you wouldn't even have puritanism. When you read puritan theology today, you are reading across the political spectrum because their only distinction was political. If you asked a separatist about their doctrine, they said they were puritan. That's why I said don't let the secularists tell the story, as they only focus on polity, as you just demonstrated referencing Mayflower.

Modern Baptist life is similar in that there are Baptists like First Dallas that believe the Government can be reformed - that American politics is where the church needs to be. Meanwhile many other Baptists are just focused on the Kingdom of Heaven. Both Baptists, doctrinally the same, but politically distinct in their beliefs about their influence over secular government.

Baptist, Methodist, Puritan ... are not limited to denominations, they are schools of thought about doctrine, so if a church has the word Baptist in their name, that doesn't make them a part of a denomination. Its simply indicative of the doctrinal convictions of that church. Having lived and served now in over a dozen states, I've noted most Mexican Baptist churches are independent, or regionally connected to each other, but not a "denomination." Are they Baptist, sure. There's actually an Independent Baptist denomination ironically. A growing number of labeled churches are formally and legally not a part of a denomination, even if they once were.

The only way that poll is accurate, and I have no doubt that it is, requires doing the headcount nationally, which indicates that the problem is not exclusive to liberal denominations with seminarian pastors, not by a mile. Numerically it would require either including all the conservative denominational churches with seminarian pastors, which seems odd given the discipleship, or you would have to look outside of denominations and seminaries. My local island headcount can only indicate that its the non-denominational churches that take up the lion's share of the 60%.
held fast

Offline ironglow

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  In all due respect TN..the Separatists could not have been Puritans, as evidenced by their own chosen titles.

  The Puritans called themselves Puritans because they wanted to STAY with the Church of England, and PURIFY it, by purging it of certain practices.

  The Separatists..named themselves as such, because they were determined to SEPARATE from the Church of England, and they didn't give a hoot what the C of E did from then on.

  Here is a HISTORY article of interest, explaining much about the wealthy Puritans vs the poor and persecuted Separatists.
  https://www.history.com/news/pilgrims-puritans-differences

  Another interesting article from belief-net
   http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/religion-miscellaneous/difference-between-puritans-and-separatists/

   From the above article;
  " The Puritans believed that, a pure life was necessary to do the will of God. Â There should be no pleasures in life and recreation was sinful, all time should be devoted to work and God. Â Puritans also felt that a monarch, or king, should not be the leader of the Church. Â Religion should be governed by the head of the church. Â Separatists believed that they were selected by God as his people, and were going to be saved. Â Additionally similar to the Puritans, the Separatists believed that a higher public standard was in order; people should act as representatives of God at all times."


  From the article above, it would seem that Puritans were "works oriented" and the religion governed by the "head of the church"  ..a substitute pope?..Both are likely a vestiginal RC practice.

  For their part the Separatists seem to be in the Calvinist camp.

  Perhaps these small differences explain why the Separatists used the Geneva translation, while the Puritans used the KJV..


   
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Dee

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Interesting read, and educational. Thanks,
Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.

Offline ironglow

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    Another interesting study is that of Roger Williams, Baptist ..and founder of the Rhode Island Colony.

  Williams allowed freedom of religion, and was the pattern for our constitutional thrust for religious freedom.

  Rhode Island sheltered almost all religions then present in the colonies, to include Jews and even Antinomians, led by Anne Hutchison.

  My own first progenitor to get to the new World..came as a Scottish POW, captured in the English civil war..

  Cromwell sent him hereto be sold as an indentured servant slave(?).  He had worked through his sentence..likely at the Saugus Iron Works..and lived in Boston..
 
  ..But was run out by Puritans, because "he spoke his mind about religion".  He naturally went to Rhode Island for a sanctuary, and became a fellow Baptist and friend of Williams..who was some years older that him.

  It is highly likely he was a Presesbyterian back in the Highlands..because he was with the "Covenanter's" forces, when taken prisoner..

   ...And NO...I'm not about to sue either England or Cromwell's descendants for any "reparations" !  ;)  ;D
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ironglow

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  An in depth study of the Pilgrims is fascinating.  They were only referred to as "Pilgrims" with a capital "P",
  after about 1800, when some romanticism developed around their saga.
 
   They used the word pilgrim, but never took that title.

     The Plymouth Adventure..was an investment by British venture capitalists, hoping to make a financial gain. 

  The Separatists, being very poor, and having already been ripped off by an unscrupulous sea captain, had little choice but to throw in with the Plymouth Adventure capitalists.

   They were originally bound for Virginia.. but time was running out for the captain of the Mayflower, so he sailed up the Hudson for a bit, came back down..and eventually dropped them on Cape Cod..where they used a shallop to explore. and found the spot where they would settle.

   Being as it was a financial investment, not all the "Pilgrims"..were pious Separatists, many were simply English citizens..good and bad.

  John Alden was not originally a Separatist, but a ship's carpenter.  Guess he came around after getting a favorable word from Priscilla Mullins.

   The Billington family was an example of the negative side.  Always in some kind of trouble, they were a vexation for the rest!

  Very soon after the initial landing however, one of the Billington's sons wandered inland and discovered a sizeable pond or lake, southwest of Plymouth.  One can find it on a Google map today..and it still carries the name "Billington Sea".

   Yes, there were both "Saints and Strangers" among the Plymouth colonists, and  George Willison wrote an interesting book on the subject.

  https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/saints-and-strangers-being-the-lives-of-the-pilgrim-fathers-and-their-families-with-tteir-friends-and-foes-and-an-account-of-the-posthumous-wanderings-and-the-strange-pilgrimages-of-plymouth-rock_geor/469449/item/19377870/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIj_SCu83i8gIVHz6tBh0ZgAuEEAQYASABEgL1SPD_BwE#idiq=19377870&edition=2756031

If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline teamnelson

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IG, respectfully, I believe you're focusing on polity not doctrine. Since you cited the History channel, here's another link ... https://www.history.com/topics/colonial-america/puritanism which indicates that amongst those of the puritan movement, some became separatists.

I believe if you looked at it from Christian history and doctrinal distinctiveness, instead of secular history books, you would find that Puritanism, as a set of christian beliefs, identifies a larger group of Christians which included Separatists, Congregationalists, and Quakers. Not unlike the various Baptist sects we have today. I believe you are missing out on some doctrinally beneficial understanding by forcing a distinction that they themselves did not see. I'll leave it that.

As it relates to the poll, the Puritan doctrinal heritage was very heavy on discipleship, regardless of which sect to which a person belonged, and the same poll given back in early America would not have had this sad result.
held fast

Offline ironglow

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IG, respectfully, I believe you're focusing on polity not doctrine. Since you cited the History channel, here's another link ... https://www.history.com/topics/colonial-america/puritanism which indicates that amongst those of the puritan movement, some became separatists.

I believe if you looked at it from Christian history and doctrinal distinctiveness, instead of secular history books, you would find that Puritanism, as a set of christian beliefs, identifies a larger group of Christians which included Separatists, Congregationalists, and Quakers. Not unlike the various Baptist sects we have today. I believe you are missing out on some doctrinally beneficial understanding by forcing a distinction that they themselves did not see. I'll leave it that.

As it relates to the poll, the Puritan doctrinal heritage was very heavy on discipleship, regardless of which sect to which a person belonged, and the same poll given back in early America would not have had this sad result.

  Doctrine vs polity..the following paragraph from the belief-net, cited below, seems to indicate a doctrinal

    difference between the two.  It would seem that the Separatists were basically Calvinist and the Puritans were

    works oriented.   If so to me, that speaks to a very basic doctrinal difference.  Do you see that differently?

      "The Puritans believed that, a pure life was necessary to do the will of God. Â There should be no pleasures in life and recreation was sinful, all time should be devoted to work and God. Â Puritans also felt that a monarch, or king, should not be the leader of the Church. Â Religion should be governed by the head of the church. Â Separatists believed that they were selected by God as his people, and were going to be saved. Â Additionally similar to the Puritans, the Separatists believed that a higher public standard was in order; people should act as representatives of God at all times."

If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline littlecanoe

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They were both Calvinists and came from the same movement concerning what was considered compromise in the Church of England. 
Puritans, as their name implies, wanted to purify the church.  The separatists desired these same, but, feeling that progress was too slow, as their name implies, chose separation from the Church of England.  If someone is recording a different turn of events they are revising history. 

Offline ironglow

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  Perhaps much of the confusion, is brought about by pure semantics.

  Both groups were "pilgrims", in that they both went on long, hazardous trips for religious reasons.

  Perhaps I am being too technical when I insist on the correct terminology, since only  the Puritans wanted to "purify" the Anglican church. 
    The Separatists could care less what happened to the Anglican church.  To put it in modern colloquialism, so far as the Separatists were concerned, the church devised by Henry VIII could go "pound salt" !

   ..But of course, the Church of England, saw it differently..preferring instead to pound the Separatists.  ;) ;) ;D

  Problem is, many current writers and talking heads use the term Puritan universally, without considering the history involved.

    An interesting sidelight... the Speedwell incident.
 
     The Separatists actually started out with 2 ships, the Mayflower and the Speedwell.  Both were craft on their last legs, nearing unseaworthiness.

   The Speedwell had a long life as a coastal freighter..as such, and since it wasn't destined to face the winds and waves of the open sea, as indicated, the speedwell was built for speed..quick trips between European ports.

  For this reason, it was fitted with much taller masts than would be mounted on an equal sized ocean-going ship.

  Out on the open sea and facing huge waves and strong winds, the tall masts worked as giant levers, tearing apart the very ribs and structure of the ship.

  By this time.. in mid ocean, some pilgrims were not near so eager as previously, so when the water became calm enough, the two ships drew near each other..and exchanged some passengers.

  The Speedwell then went back to England..the Mayflower continued on to the New World.

  A similar situation happened to the Mayflower later on..from whence came the story of how John Alden used the screw from a printing press to secure the frame.

  Since between the two ships, more chose to go on, than chose to go back..which added to the crowded conditions on the Mayflower.


   
 

     
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Dee

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In as much as its been 390 years since the Puritans came to America, and 400 years since the Separatists before them. I doubt it matters much now.
Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.

Offline littlecanoe

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The simple fact remains that they were born from the same womb. 

Offline Dee

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I'll read a little of that stuff here and there, but it really doesn't interest me much. I more concerned with current issues.
Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.

Offline ironglow

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  What happens now, is normally a reflection of the past.  Solomon said , "there is nothing new under the sun".

  If we school ourselves well in history, we can avoid many mistakes as we go along, since almost everything has been "tried before"..

  That is where much of our academia and young people are going wrong.  For instance, many are now are embracing socialism and/or communism.  With only a rudimentary understanding of more recent history, they could save themselves, and the rest of us much pain and problems.

    "Those who don't know history, are destined to repeat it" ! (Edmund Burke) 

  George Santayana is credited with nearly the same statement.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Dee

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I don't disagree with that, but I prefer the old ways. I have no interest in the latest greatest anything.
Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.

Offline littlecanoe

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This is like a flashback. It’s been an interesting experiment to make a few posts on this forum again but to do so simply has no value to me any longer.

IG. A parting question. Why do you post questions if you already have your mind made up?  It certainly doesn’t appear that you want an exchange of ideas. Your pattern of post and response reminds me of attempted conversation with a person whom you know isn’t hearing a word that you’re saying because they are formulating their response rather than hearing what you are saying.

WNCCHESTER, Oldtimer from many years ago and TN were (and are) extremely knowledgeable. What’s more, they were able to synthesize because they were/are critical thinkers. By that I mean that they educated themselves about both sides of a particular issue and are in turn educable.

There is certainly nothing new going on here.

Offline Dee

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This is like a flashback. It’s been an interesting experiment to make a few posts on this forum again but to do so simply has no value to me any longer.

IG. A parting question. Why do you post questions if you already have your mind made up?  It certainly doesn’t appear that you want an exchange of ideas. Your pattern of post and response reminds me of attempted conversation with a person whom you know isn’t hearing a word that you’re saying because they are formulating their response rather than hearing what you are saying.

WNCCHESTER, Oldtimer from many years ago and TN were (and are) extremely knowledgeable. What’s more, they were able to synthesize because they were/are critical thinkers. By that I mean that they educated themselves about both sides of a particular issue and are in turn educable.

There is certainly nothing new going on here.

Flashback? LOL, of course its familiar.

ironglows is never wrong. Ever. So he is doing what you describe to a T.

But you have an argument that you believe to be correct, and your doing the same thing he does. But differently.

Same horse, different saddle.

And as always, I don't give much thought to what happened 400 years ago.

There's a bunch of old men here, that are pretty set in their ways. I'm one of'em.
Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.

Offline ironglow

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   From LC;
   
   " IG. A parting question. Why do you post questions if you already have your mind made up?  It certainly doesn’t appear that you want an exchange of ideas. Your pattern of post and response reminds me of attempted conversation with a person whom you know isn’t hearing a word that you’re saying because they are formulating their response rather than hearing what you are saying."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  I would answer your question, but you will have to be more specific, and provide an example.  Please note, I didn't launch this thread, so I am a bit concerned what the genesis of your accusation is.
  ..And perhaps you can show us an example of where you confessed to a mistaken notion!   ;) ;D
  Dee is of course correct, in that we here for the most part are a rag-tag bunch of crusty old men, rather set in our ways.  ..And likely set in our ways after long observation, study and experiences. 

    The fact that Dee is not greatly concerned with history, is no flaw. since there are many people in just such a frame of mind.  Perhaps I overemphasize the importance of history, as a formulative option.
 
  Come now guys, back in reply #49, I did admit that I could very well be wrong.. ;)
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ironglow

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  To LC;

   Your statement here seems to be quite cryptic, perhaps you can extrapolate..
       "WNCCHESTER, Oldtimer from many years ago and TN were (and are) extremely knowledgeable. What’s more, they were able to synthesize because they were/are critical thinkers. By that I mean that they educated themselves about both sides of a particular issue and are in turn educable."

  ...Both sides of what specific subject?  I have respected the posts of both WNNCHESTER and TN for many years now, and normally we are in agreement..  Does it distress you that some folks don't entirely agree 100% of the time? 
      In this case, you should notice that I have not said "because I said so!", ...but offered links and evidences, just as TN did..

  So what, if we don't agree 100%...especially since disagreement here, has no bearing on the salvation of either of us?

 Besides, how do you know that I or anyone else, has not satisfactorily synthesized for ourselves, many years ago?
 
    Please tell me what subject you are having difficulty with, so we can discuss it ..using scriptures to back our conclusions, if you wish.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Bob Riebe

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In as much as its been 390 years since the Puritans came to America, and 400 years since the Separatists before them. I doubt it matters much now.
It matters as a part of the past, and how, or what roads based on opinions brought us to a still fragmenting state of Christianity  we are in , with some sects abandoning the Holy Dogma while, in my opinion, taking God's name in vain.

As was said: Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to relive it; or as said in the Bible, nothing is new under the Sun.