This Is the F-36 Kingsnake. It Could Be the Air Force's Next Fighter Jet.

[Bob Riebe]

Articles I have read on the new Russian Su-57, say it does use stealth technology but sacrificed some of that to be fully capable air superiority fighter; i.e. in a one on one it is said to be better than the Su-37 which most sources say is the most capable dog fighter in the world.
If there is a major war, first thing countries will do is to cripple or destroy their opponents AWAC capability which makes beyond visual range weapons semi-worthless as you will not know if it a good guy or the enemy.
The U.S. came close to losing an F-15 in way when a pilot was out of AWACS range, knew he had an enemy locking on to him and did not know where he was.
By his own words , what saved him was a U.S. pilot heard his , help me calls, and was, by the grace of God, in visual range to see and shoot down the enemy air craft.

[Argent 88]

Do they have guns on them? Or just missiles. 

[Bob Riebe]

All jets now have guns on them.

It was a missile kill, and would have been said same for the enemy.
The second F-15 saw the enemy aircraft which was behind and out of sight for the frightened  pilot.
It has been awhile since I read the story but the pilot who made the kill even said he just happened to be in the area.
He assumed the enemy pilot was going to close in to help assure a kill, which cost him his life.
You cannot take evasive action if you do not where the enemy is, which is why the U.S. Air Force success has been greatly due to their AWACS aircraft, and the Chinese developed a missile with the singular purpose to destroy AWACS air craft.

Jets have a sound alarm to tell a pilot another radar has locked onto them.

[ironglows]

. It seems that the top brass in our military have to be watched carefully, since they can sometimes be very myopic!  If not, then why was Custer's 7th cavalry armed with only trapdoor Springfields, while some of Crazy Horse's crew armed with Henry levers?

  Why did we enter the Spanish American war with 45/70 Remington 1867 rolling blocks..to face the Spanish 7mm Mausers?

  When the F4 Phantom was conceived and built, the military was thinking of Russian bombers flying over the pole, to attack the USA.  It could outspeed other fighter planes to place rockets and missiles in th ebelly of the bombers.

  https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2020/07/26/the-mcdonnell-f-4-phantom/#:~:text=Early%20F%2D4%27s%20had%20no,Many%20are%20still%20in%20service.

   
 

[ironglows]

. It seems that the top brass in our military have to be watched carefully, since they can sometimes be very myopic!  If not, then why was Custer's 7th cavalry armed with trapdoor Springfields only, while some of Crazy Horse's crew armed with Henry levers?

  Why did we enter the Spanish American war with 45/70 Remington 1867 rolling blocks..to face the Spanish with their 7mm Mausers?

  When the F4 Phantom was conceived and built, the military was thinking of Russian bombers flying over the pole, to attack the USA.  It could outrun other fighter planes to place rockets and missiles in the belly of the bombers, so they were not initally equipped with guns.

  https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2020/07/26/the-mcdonnell-f-4-phantom/#:~:text=Early%20F%2D4%27s%20had%20no,Many%20are%20still%20in%20service.

   
 

[Argent 88]

My friend, Steve, piloted a F-4 Phantom and he said most versions did not have guns. Those that did had 30mm Vulcan guns. Can't remember what he said, either 1.5 seconds or 3 seconds fire time and you were out of ammo. Of course the F-4 is out of production now. But current jet fighter interceptors may or may not be speced with guns according to purpose.
.
.TM7

On the Carrier I was on we were sent a big kit, to outfit the Phantoms with guns. It was done onboard and took about two days to install it. Some techs had to be flown out to help with it. And it was a 30mm. Not quite as good as a factory install, the whole program was rushed through. And some avionics had to be relocated to make room.

[ironglows]

 .
    Right on Argent !  Gun pods were added to some, but they were not near as good as if they had been "built in", to start with !

[Argent 88]

.
    Right on Argent !  Gun pods were added to some, but they were not near as good as if they had been "built in", to start with !

The newer Phantom II F4-E's came with them already installed onboard the aircraft. The F4-E is still in active service today, many smaller countries are still using them. Our missle technology was vastly improved also in the F4-E.

[Bob Riebe]

    Right on Argent !  Gun pods were added to some, but they were not near as good as if they had been "built in", to start with !

Col. Olds from the Air Force said they were better than nothing but not much; he said they were more like using a shotgun and hoping for a hit as they were far, far from accurate.

[Bob Riebe]

My friend, Steve, piloted a F-4 Phantom and he said most versions did not have guns. Those that did had 30mm Vulcan guns. Can't remember what he said, either 1.5 seconds or 3 seconds fire time and you were out of ammo. Of course the F-4 is out of production now. But current jet fighter interceptors may or may not be speced with guns according to purpose.
.TM7

The Vulcan is a 20 mm gatling gun develped for the F-104 and tail gun on the B-58.
During 'Nam when those in combat , with some authority , realized that missiles did not work, real often, and a gun would have meant far more air to air kills, shown by the F-105 which was a long ways away from a dog fighter scoring kills on the very maneuverable Mig 17, this point struck home.

Every U.S. fighter since has had a gun installed and even the Russians did refitting on some  of theirs that originally did not have one.
The U.S. still used the 20mm Vulcan but other countries are using guns from the 23mm new , very new Russian guns replacing the older 23 , to the , comparatively , new 27mm Mauser to the old, very  30mm Aden.
When the Brits were still flying the Lightning, oddly the F2 version used by NATO in Europe had permanently installed nose cannons, 30mm Aden , but the improved F6 used by the home defense had had its belly guns removed.
After ' Nam, they were refitted, replacing the fuel tanks that could also be put in that location while over wing fuel tanks, which they had stopped using, were also then refitted.
Hard lesson are sadly the best lessons.

[Argent 88]

    Right on Argent !  Gun pods were added to some, but they were not near as good as if they had been "built in", to start with !

Col. Olds from the Air Force said they were better than nothing but not much; he said they were more like using a shotgun and hoping for a hit as they were far, far from accurate.

The Navy used tracer rounds. They were for close quarter dogfights with the Migs, which our pilots were starting encounter more of. The Migs were using something more like a hit and run strafeing maneuver. A close quarter missile launch was not a good idea back then, especially with the heat seeking sidewinders. And the Bullpups were to slow.

Bob, the kits were 30mm, the 20mm didn't show up until the later F4-E. At least that's how it was with our squadron. Out of Virgina Beach NAS. Norfolk was home to the USS Saratoga CV/CVA-60.

[Argent 88]

F-4 Phantom was a fast and fairly long range interceptor with light bombing capabilities.  18,000 lb ordinance payload.
I can't imagine what enough 30mm rounds to give 30 seconds of fire time would weigh, but probably would be expensed against fuel pounds.
.TM7

The pilots said they were like driving a pickup truck. Don't forget the Bullpups. They were exreamly heavy.
One of the reasons they were deleted from service. But they were an effective air to ground weapon.
The 30mm was of a British design. We had to try and figure it out, that's why the techs were called in.
In air to air combat it was super effective.

The Royal Small Arms Factory ADEN is a 30 mm revolver cannon used on many military aircraft, particularly those of the British Royal Air Force and Fleet Air Arm.


...

[Bob Riebe]

Bob, the kits were 30mm, the 20mm didn't show up until the later F4-E. At least that's how it was with our squadron. Out of Virgina Beach NAS. Norfolk was home to the USS Saratoga CV/CVA-60.

Interesting, I knew they tried several types but I never knew they tried the Aden, fascinating.
Sadly my cousin who was a walking encyclopaedia on  such things died, several years back.

[Argent 88]

Bob, the kits were 30mm, the 20mm didn't show up until the later F4-E. At least that's how it was with our squadron. Out of Virgina Beach NAS. Norfolk was home to the USS Saratoga CV/CVA-60.

Interesting, I knew they tried several types but I never knew they tried the Aden, fascinating.
Sadly my cousin who was a walking encyclopaedia on  such things died, several years back.

They did have barrel overheating issues though.

[Argent 88]

Bob, are you now the self appointed site fact checker, like FB has? Nothing wrong with that, but you seem to follow me over the entire site. In anything I say. Were you there, was he thier? I sure was. Aviation ordinance
02 AO.

[Argent 88]

My early handbook when I first went in as an eliisted. I was promoted later. Upside down photos? I don't know why it is doing that. It isn't anywhere else. Tap the pic and it blows up normal?  Easy to read.

[Bob Riebe]

Bob, are you now the self appointed site fact checker, like FB has? Nothing wrong with that, but you seem to follow me over the entire site. In anything I say. Were you there, was he thier? I sure was. Aviation ordinance
02 AO.

No I now regret not but when my draft number came up I was in the hospital and the doctor told dad , if I was alive in the morning it was a good sign.

I met my cousin in Vo-tech in 1975, he never got married but  took his aircraft and railroad hobbies very, very seriously (he was also a sky diver to the point at one time he got paid to instruct) he traveled around and talked to people who were there, flew or restored aircraft, so he knew people who had first hand experience.
Sadly years before he died, he just stopped, we , his brother and I , did not really know what was what and as he was going to retire just though he was getting ready for that, then he died.
He survived a ruptured aorta but the stroke he had in the hospital killed him; I was there with his brother and finally told him I gotta an hour after he had them pull the plugs, he died an hour after I left.
I miss him greatly, and now regret not spending more time with him in his later years, though he used to work at 3M 12/7 some weeks.
That was how he paid for his travels.
He worked as a volunteer with tourist railroads and had spent enough time, including classes and apprentice work he was going to apprentice  to be a locomotive .
engineer.
It took him decades to get that far.

[Argent 88]

I'm very sorry to hear that Bob. Blessings .

[Lloyd Smale]

biden will probably mandate that only transexuals can fly it and it needs to have solar panels and God forbid it carry real ammo.

[ironglows]

.
  Yes, probably President Harris (that's what Biden calls her), will mandate that nerf guns replace the Gatlings..

[ironglows]

.
  Yes, Pres Harris (that's what Biden calls her) will probably mandate that any guns be taken from our planes, ships and tanks...to be replaced with nerf guns.

  Here, Joe relinquishes his job..  https://nypost.com/2021/03/18/biden-calls-kamala-president-harris-during-speech/

[Argent 88]

As for the F4 Phamtom I think the bolt on gun weighed 1900 lbs loaded with 323 rounds. If the gun cycled at the 6000rpm rste 323 rounds only gave about three and a half seconds run time. Problem was the gun messed up the planes handling, could reduce fuel capacity and had no gun sight.
Argent...didn't they bolt on up to 4 of these gun pods on a Phantom?

Btw, not sure but wouldn't 6000 rounds of 30mm weigh about 4500 pounds?
.
.TM7

Yes, and it caused a lot of drag effecting the handling characteristics. Especially if the aircraft also had drop tanks. Plus the missile ordinance, usually I only saw only two pods in that case,one on each wing. The Drop tanks carried Napalm, depending on the mission. At first there was talk about putting the guns in the nose. But that would require a lot of work, down time and major modifications on the older jets.
Or at the factory place them like was done on the old F-86F Sabre jet. Which would have been a much better idea. And some of them much later on after the war did have them placed like that.

This prompted the USAF to introduce an M61 Vulcan 20 mm cannon in the nose of the aircraft, below the radome (although no Navy or Marine Phantoms ever had an integral gun). Only the pods. The F-4, like other interceptors of its time, was initially designed without an internal cannon. Later models incorporated an M61 Vulcan rotary cannon.

[Argent 88]

The F4 was a good aircraft, but all of this should have been intergrated into the original design. Instead of going back and haveing to do a lot redo's. We didn't make that mistake in 1974 with the F14 Tomcat.

Although, The F-4 continued to form a major part of U.S. military air power throughout the 1970s and 1980s, being gradually replaced by more modern aircraft such as the F-15 Eagle and F-16 Fighting Falcon in the U.S. Air Force, the F-14 Tomcat in the U.S. Navy, and the F/A-18 Hornet in the U.S. Navy and U.S. Marine Corps.