Author Topic: Winchester M 70 that's too unreliable to use (Read 1502 times)

leverfan · « **on:** March 03, 2004, 06:49:19 PM »

Hello, all. I've posted this problem on other boards, but I wanted to see what advice folks here had to offer. In December, I bought a brand new Model 70 Classic 30-06, and it was unreliable right out of the box. The feed rails weren't the proper dimension, and when the bolt was opened, rounds in the magazine would spring out and fall to the ground (not exactly controlled round feeding). This happened with ALL ammo, from A-Zoom snap caps, to reloads, to factory fresh, you name it. It went back to New Haven, CT, and I didn't hear anything for almost a month and a half. Finally, my gun shop called them, and it went to the repair shop that day (the date is on the work order). I got it back last Saturday, and tried it out.

Now, it will feed some ammo most of the time, but only if it is absolutely minimum SAAMI dimension, especially in the shoulder diameter. Otherwise, same old problem, especially with the last one or two rounds in the magazine. As far as Winchester/USRAC is concerned, the gun is fixed, because it worked with the particular type of factory fresh ammo they tried. I got the same story from the New Haven repair shop and the local authorized repair shop (they haven't actually seen the gun at the local shop, yet). For instance, even though A-Zoom snap caps are machined to be well within SAAMI specs, and some folks even use them as action proving dummies, A-Zooms will not stay in the magazine when the bolt is opened. They just fly out of the magazine when I open the bolt. This tells me that there is no safety margin for reliable function with this rifle, even with factory fresh ammo, but the repair shops said they will not do anything to make the rifle work with ammo other than what they have tried. As the gun wears over time, it may fail to work with anything. It certainly won't work with reloads, not 100%, even when full-length resized, so it's pretty much useless to someone that reloads exclusively (like me).

Does anyone have any ideas on how to get better service from Winchester, or should I just send this rifle down the road to someone that uses new Winchester ammo exclusively? They'd have to be a good shot, too, because if you cycle through the whole magazine briskly, you can get the last round to pop out with any ammo, so you'd better not need that last round. I've never owned a rifle that didn't work, before, and I've never had any gun company fail to fix a problem to my satisfaction before.

Thanks in advance for replies.

Kevin

gunnut69 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 03, 2004, 07:40:18 PM »

I had a Winchester M70 Super Grade 7mmMag that didn't shootn well and the wood was pretty plain.. Winchester re-barreled and re-stocked the rifle. It took a while but they fixed it for sure. My 264 SuperGrade did not have the SuperGrade engraved on the floorplate. They lost my floorplate when I returned it and for whatever reason, don't have just the floorplate)in the picture frame style). So they sent the entire floorplate/trigger guard assembly, only trouble was, it wan't engraved 'Super Grade' either! Still I find it hard to believe they refused to fix the rifle. Manufacturing tolerances change as tooling wears so a particular brands' dimensions are npt always the same. I'd bet real money no smith at the factory fed live ammo thru that action. In that type environment dummies are the only safe way to go.. Quality is so iffy today, I had a remington 700 with no crown on the barrel and no ejector spring!! They offered to fix it but a trip to Remington cost more than the parts.... Where'd you buy the rifle. Perhaps take it back to them and let them return it to Winchester. Sometimes a dealer gets more attention than an individual.. I've had the same problem with standard caliber rifles converted to mags. It's a lack of width in the magazine, which sets the cartridges in the magazine at the wrong angle in the stack.. Not a terribly difficult fix usually but one you don't want bungled...

leverfan · « **Reply #2 on:** March 03, 2004, 07:55:21 PM »

gunnut69-

To clarify, my dealer did send the gun back to Winchester in mid January, because the local approved service center has a spotty record for customer satisfaction. Towards the end of February, my dealer contacted Winchester to find out what was up. Winchester wrote out the work order that day, and had it back to my dealer within 5 days of receiving the complaint.

I took it home and tried it out, finding that it was a little better, but still not 100% reliable. I called Winchester, and the fellow on the line said that the gun was considered fixed because it had cycled some rounds for the guy in the service center after having the feed rails worked on (I was surprised to hear a gun company admit to exactly what work was done, usually they won't explain what was wrong, although I have been given lists of replaced parts). He said that I could send it back again, if I felt like it, but I'm reluctant to send it back to the same turtle-slow shop that's had my gun longer than I have. I got the impression that the same tests would be performed again, and if my ammo supply doesn't work as well as their test rounds, that's more my problem than theirs. I've been reloading for a long time now, and this isn't my first 30-06, but I've NEVER had a problem with case dimensions before in any other rifle. It's not the dies, I checked that. Besides, I can get the gun to spit out some factory loads, too.

Next, I went ahead and called the nearest Winchester approved repair center. The smith said that he was willing to make the gun 100% reliable with factory ammo, but that he wouldn't do anything to make proving dummies or reloads function better in the gun, and that doing so was outside the scope of approved repairs. That's too bad, from my point of view, because it means that the rifle is only about .001" away from not working with anything at all, if it won't even handle slightly larger shouldered cases.

Right now, I'm deciding how bad I want to keep screwing with a gun that won't do what I want it to do, and if it's worth sending it off for weeks or months again. I guess it's a good thing that I didn't put in for a spring bear hunt tag, anyway.

Robert · « **Reply #3 on:** March 03, 2004, 08:20:45 PM »

I f you are going to hunt with this rifle, do you want to go buy a tag, camos, ammo and all the other equipement...plan on your special hunt FOR A YEAR....and then go hunting with a rifle that you are NOT CONFIDENT with? I wouldn't send it down the line to ANYONE! They need to EAT that rifle...literally...they need to feed it through the chomper and destroy it.

wallynut · « **Reply #4 on:** March 04, 2004, 03:59:00 AM »

leverfan · « **Reply #5 on:** March 04, 2004, 09:37:27 AM »

Robert-

I agree that Winchester should make this right, but I don't seem to be able to get them to see it that way. After all this time, I'd think that the gun companies wouldn't have any trouble making a 30-06 with properly dimensioned feed rails, and shame at screwing up on one and letting it out the door should be enough to motivate a company like Winchester. Reliability under any condition is one of the main selling points of the Model 70 Classic, so that's another reason for them to go the extra mile to make this gun work with ANY SAAMI spec ammo that a rifle owner chooses to feed it.

If you, or anyone else reading this thread, can think of a way to motivate Winchester to do a better job fixing this rifle (or just give me a new one, which is what I'd really prefer) I'm listening. I will probably send it back to the same slow repair shop in New Haven, along with a new repair request, and some ammo proving dummies that I feel the rifle should be able to cycle. It will probably take another 6 or 7 weeks to come back, and then I'll see if I'm still right where I started. I've never had a gun that couldn't feed ammo right before, and I've only had to send one gun back for repair (a Redhawk). Ruger took a long time to fix the gun, but, unlike Winchester, Ruger did make the gun work before they sent it back, so maybe I should have bought a Ruger M77.

flintlock · « **Reply #6 on:** March 04, 2004, 10:48:11 AM »

leverfan...I worked for John Deere for 13 years...half of that time I was
a service rep...here's what I would do...take that gun back to the dealer
and buy a Ruger or Remington (if you are bent on a Winchester...run
several brands of factory ammo through a new gun at the dealers)...the dealer should allow you what you gave for that gun new (take your receipt)...The dealer can return that gun to the Winchester distributor in your area...let the distributer deal with Winchester....they buy thousands of guns from them a year...life is too short for you to have to worry about
Winchester's problems...If you have to, let the dealer know if he ever
expects you (or any of your friends) to buy from him in the future, take care of the problem and be done with it...If you do go with another brand, make sure the dealer lets his distributer know why...I was told by Deere
that whenever a customer had a problem that was not resolved...he would tell at least 100 people, so when you talk with one customer,you are talking to 100...Good luck...flintlock

dbuck · « **Reply #7 on:** March 05, 2004, 03:14:47 AM »

leverfan, I agree with flintlock, take that rifle back to your dealer and exchange it for a Remington 700, Weaherby Vanguard, Ruger 77, etc., but get rid of it. If he is any kind of dealer it shouldn't be a problem.

dbuck

leverfan · « **Reply #8 on:** March 06, 2004, 06:30:17 PM »

Well, folks, maybe I'm just an idiot, but I'm giving Winchester one last chance to make things right. I shipped the rifle back myself, and the fiasco at the USPS could make another post all by itself. They literally had to go get a copy of their own regulations, and read them through, just to find out that it was legal for me to ship my own gun to Winchester. I followed the rules to the letter, and I was still at the counter for about half an hour.

Anyway, I wrote a polite letter to USRAC/Winchester, and I asked them to take another crack at fixing my rifle. Action proving dummies were provided, since they seem to lack them. I let them know that hundreds of potential customers have been viewing the threads that I've started about this problem on a couple of sites. Hopefully, for the sake of good advertising, they will come up with a speedy and satisfactory solution.

I still like Winchester, because I grew up shooting their excellent lever rifles, but maybe the company just isn't up to the standards that it used to have. Prior to buying this bolt action, the newest Winchester I'd fired was made in 1955, and it's sure a nice gun (first year production M88). This whole deal has served to remind me that I am, first and foremost, a fan of lever rifles.

Lawdog · « **Reply #9 on:** March 07, 2004, 11:02:22 AM »

leverfan,

A few years ago my son bought a new Win. M70(left-handed) in .300 Win. Mag. and it to had a problem similar to what you have described. Winchester ended up replacing the rifle with another, only in a caliber different from what my son had bought(.338 Win. Mag.). My son had to send the rifle back twice and it was after the second time they replaced the rifle. Don't give up just yet. Be thankful you are not dealing with Remington. Their Customer Service Department is a black hole(complaints go in - nothing comes out). Lawdog

Muddyboots · « **Reply #10 on:** March 08, 2004, 06:54:51 AM »

Take solace, at least Winchester has responded to you. You may not liked their response but at least you got one. I have written to BerretaUSA, Tikka in Finland and now Sako regarding a problem with my T-3. Zilch, nada, zip, zero response so far and this is over 5 weeks. I just resent my query this past weekend and hopefully someone will kindly consider a reply to my questions. I also agree with recommendation to return rifle to dealer. I am doing same with my Tikka T-3 if I do not get a response from them shortly.
Muddyboots

Wilbe Lead · « **Reply #11 on:** March 12, 2004, 06:01:22 PM »

Levrfan,
Any repley back yet about your gun?
Wish you the best of luck on getting back a gun that feeds the shells out of the bottom of the mag.
Still have that Marlin in my box.
Later
Wilbe Lead

leverfan · « **Reply #12 on:** March 13, 2004, 07:09:09 PM »

Wilbe Lead-

Many thanks for keeping that offer open, I may need it come hunting season. It sounds like my model 70 is in Missouri right now, at least that's where the card came from that I got today. It's actually a Browning facility, but they're both USRAC, so what the heck. Mel and the kids and I did some scouting today. Saw a blacktail that has that disease that makes their hair come out, or maybe something else happened to it, anyway it looked pretty messed up. Still, there's lots of sign, both deer and elk, in my favorite hunting haunts. Abby walked about 7 miles, carrying her back pack. Not bad for a four year old. Caleb wasn't allowed to wander. He'd have been into all the swampy spots, eating salamanders and tadpoles. Abby is learning tracks, now, and what elk smell like. Lots of chances for her to check out both, today.

1911crazy · « **Reply #13 on:** March 24, 2004, 01:52:07 AM »

I can remember buying a new remington 1100 shotgun years ago and out of the box the gun jammed. I took it back to the sports shop and he gave me a hard time before he took the gun out of the box but after he changed his tune when he took it out of the box when it jammed on him too. The sports shop wouldn't give me my money back I had to take another new 1100 so i took that gun and traded it in at a gun store to get rid of it because i lost confidence in it. I bought a new mossberg bolt action years ago(1974) that wouldn't feed correctly out of the left side of the magazine I just corrected the feeder lip. Then the mag door would open after firing the first shot too. While looking at 4 rounds on the ground and thinking I'm going bear hunting this is not a good thing. After trying to adjust the spring pressure on the latch I deceided to put a setscrew from the back side of the trigger housing to hold the lever locked so it does open the door. Now after all that the accuracy became a problem I bedded the stock and then I had to reload to get it to shoot right. Now after all the repairs the gun is one of the best ones I have. I'm glad I hung in there with it. Back then the new mossberg rifle w/scope and mounts cost me $172 and to this day she can still put three shots in a nickel sized group after all these years. I wished mossberg still made bolt actions!!! My new remington 700 BDL won't shoot accurately with remington ammo it won't shoot small groups it will only shoots good with winchester ammo I can put two bullets thru the same hole at 100yds. Of course we are talking a $1,000 for this gun (package w/scope) its a far cry in price from my old mossberg times sure have changed. BigBill

Years ago I can remember winchester having a bad run on lever action 30-30's the shells would just jam the gun when running the action they all just came out of the feeder tube. You would think after making so many for all these years they would have it right.

Buying a new gun is like a box of choclates you never know what you going to get!!!!

Rogue Ram · « **Reply #14 on:** March 24, 2004, 02:45:28 PM »

Lever,

What happened so far? Any more heard?

My office partner went to sling his M70 to his shoulder and the cheap POS stud came out........rifle went muzzle first into the concrete. Worried, he took it out and shot it. What was a 3/4" moa shooter now sprays the same loads 2" at 100. Swapped scopes, same thing. Rounds impacting the direction one would expect from a barrel to be bent that way.

I told him up front not to even bother with Winchester. I was right. Gun came back in 5 week, they bolted in a sling stud with a stop inside the forearm, and DID NOT FIX HIS DAMAGED CROWN. They sent a test target with dime size groups, claiming factory ammo. His rifle still can't hit a barn when he shoots it. He took it to my smith, who checked it out.
Bent barrel, damaged crown, etc.

Latest info is that Winchester has NO true repair shop anymore. If the damage is too bad, they send you a new gun because thats just cheaper for them. In any case, semi-custom seems to be the only option left anymore to get what you pay for. What crap.

RR

leverfan · « **Reply #15 on:** March 24, 2004, 06:23:17 PM »

RR-

The last I heard from USRAC was the postcard that they mailed on March 11, letting me know that my gun had arrived at their Browning repair facility in Arnold, Missouri. I guess the boys in New Haven were done trying to fix my problem. They, "will make every effort to service your product as quickly as possible, however....." I usually give a company about 6 weeks, then I call. Whenever I've called a company, the gun is magically repaired and returned within about one week. The local (Portland, OR) authorized service center has a two week turn around, but they refused to even attempt to make the rifle work with proving dummies or reloads, so it sounded like a waste of two weeks to send it to them. Winchester's customer service rep promised that my shipping costs would be refunded, but I haven't seen a check yet. I have been checking out a very nice .375 H&H at my local gun shop, so maybe I'll pick it up for a spare bolt gun, just in case the Model 70 comes back in the same unacceptable condition. As soon as the M 70 is back in my hot little hands, I'll be sure to update folks as to its ability to function. At this point, it may be a very long time before I can really feel like I trust this rifle to work, even if it seems fine at first.

Wilbe Lead · « **Reply #16 on:** March 24, 2004, 07:09:57 PM »

Leverfan,
Do not him and ha to long on that 375 other guys maybe looking at it for that prices!
Wilbe Lead
P.S. I am not after it but if I did not already have one you would be out of luck!

leverfan · « **Reply #17 on:** March 24, 2004, 07:29:45 PM »

Wilbe Lead-

Yeah, that's what I'm a little afraid of, but Mel and I just bought a new S&W M60 with 3" barrel down there today, and that seemed like enough business for one day. The big kickers show up on that rack often enough for me to hold out hope, even if I have to wait a little longer and end up with a different one. By the way, Gary still hasn't finished the Lone Oak business, and he won't be back in until Saturday. I'd like to give that guy a piece of my mind about all this delay, but I can't spare any of the pieces...

marylandeer · « **Reply #18 on:** March 25, 2004, 03:02:05 AM »

Have you tried using the word LAWYER yet. Sometimes it works wonders, tell them you are concerned for your safety and are calling a lawyer if the gun is not fixed or replaced.

leverfan · « **Reply #19 on:** March 25, 2004, 07:37:37 PM »

marylandeer-

Nope, I haven't threatened them with the ambulance chasers, and I doubt that I will. In my case, it would be a threat that I would never carry through on, and I'm not given to making empty threats. I just let them know that I'm airing their dirty laundry on multiple web sites, with a total of nearly 9,000 potential customers having access to the threads that I've started, and hundreds of folks have already viewed the threads. I told them that the final results of their repair work would be posted for all to see, and that's not a threat, just a fact. I have no intention of hunting dangerous game with a rifle that likes to pitch back-up rounds out on the ground or jam up on a crossed-over shell, so there's no safety problem. It's not going into the field with me if it's a P.O.S. I'll just never buy another new USRAC product if they fail to make right on this deal, and I'll do my level best to influence as many other shooters as possible to steer clear of them. Why should I let my buddies buy a potential lemon from a company that won't fix it? Thanks for the thought, though, and I don't have any problem with anybody else using this tactic to get decent service, it's just not for me personally.

Update, 3-26-04:

I wasn't here to sign for it today, but Winchester has finished working on my gun, and it's been shipped back. The service was much quicker than the first time that I sent it in, and as soon as I actually get my hands on the gun, I'll let people know if the darn thing works or not.

leverfan · « **Reply #20 on:** March 29, 2004, 05:50:45 PM »

Well, the good news is, my model 70 seems to have been repaired. I haven't had the chance to fire it, but I cycled some rounds through it today, and it appears to be fixed.

The bad news is, USRAC did not refund for shipping, despite the customer service rep's promise that shipping would be refunded. I supplied them with a receipt and a request for refund in the amount of $26.40, but they haven't sent a check.

More bad news, they kept the action proving dummies that I sent with the rifle. That's another $6.58, plus shipping, to replace. It's not much money, but there's a matter of principle involved.

I may buy another Winchester or Browning some day, but it won't be a new one. It took them two tries, and a total of about 3 months, to make their brand-new product work, so I may as well take my chances with a used gun, so that I can apply the savings towards future repairs and shipping, if needed. Good customer service is important to me, so I'll probably stick with Ruger for new rifles from now on.

Update: On 4-9-04, I finally received a shipping refund check for $26.40, so I'm only out the proving dummies and my time.