Author Topic: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation   (Read 2251 times)

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Offline Chenango

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Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« on: October 26, 2020, 12:25:41 AM »
In the debate last Thursday Sleepy Joe Biden said he would get rid of Fossil fuels. Well I wonder how that will work out
per this article in The Australian:


Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 

Credit:  Gary Johns, The Australian, 27th July 2015 ~~

Bill Shorten should have asked a couple of questions before committing Australia to a 50 per cent renewable target. Can you build a wind turbine, or start a wind turbine, without fossil fuels?

The answer is no and no, you cannot. So what is the point of saddling Australia with an increasing load of wind turbines? (Much is also true for solar.)
Whatever one’s beliefs on the veracity and level of threat from climate change, what is the point in spending hard-earned dollars on expensive and inadequate-for-purpose technology?

The energy density of wind power is a little over one watt a square metre. A Smaller, Faster, Lighter, Denser, Cheaper author Robert Bryce tells, if all the coal-fired generation capacity in the US were to be replaced by wind, it would need to set aside land the size of Italy. Hydrocarbons are denser energy sources than wind. There is nothing that can overcome that fact.

James Hansen, the former NASA climate scientist, wrote in 2011: “Suggesting that renewables will let us phase out rapidly fossil fuels is almost the equivalent of believing in the Easter bunny.”

The other thing about renewables is that they cannot produce the intensity of heat required to not only build turbines but just about anything else that makes the modern world modern.

The material requirements of a modern wind turbine have been reviewed by the US Geological Survey (Wind Energy in the United States and Materials Required for the Land-Based Turbine Industry From 2010 Through 2030). On average, 1 megawatt of wind capacity requires 103 tonnes of stainless steel, 402 tonnes of concrete, 6.8 tonnes of fibreglass, three tonnes of copper and 20 tonnes of cast iron. The blades are made of fibreglass, the tower of steel and the base of concrete.

Robert Wilson at Carbon Counter takes us through the ­science. Fibreglass is produced from petrochemicals, which means that a wind turbine cannot be made without the extraction of oil and natural gas. Steel is made from iron ore. To mine ore requires high energy density fuels, such as diesel. Transporting ore to steel mills requires diesel.

Converting iron ore into steel requires a blast furnace, which requires large amounts of coal or natural gas. The blast furnace is used for most steel production.
Coal is essential, not simply a result of the energy requirements of steel production but of the chemical requirements of iron ore smelting.

Cement is made in a kiln, using kiln fuel such as coal, natural gas or used tyres. About 50 per cent of emissions from cement production comes from chemical reactions in its production.

Then there is the problem of priming windmills. Large wind turbines require a large amount of energy to operate. Wind plants must use electricity from the grid, which is powered by coal, gas or nuclear power.

A host of the wind turbine functions use electricity that the turbine cannot be relied on to generate – functions such as blade-pitch control, lights, controllers, communication, sensors, metering, data collection, oil heater, pump, cooler, filtering system in gearboxes, and much more.

Wind turbines cannot be built and cannot operate on a large scale without fossil fuels.

As important, wind and solar do not have the energy densities to create an economy. Forget trains, planes and automobiles; your humble iPhones, laptops and other digital devices consume huge amounts of electricity and cannot be made with renewables. That most modern of new economy inventions, the computing cloud, requires massive amounts of electricity.

As Mark Mills wrote: ‘‘The cloud begins with coal.’’ The green­ies who got into the ears of Labor leaders to convince them that the era of fossil fuels is over should think again.

Reservoirs of methane hydrates – icy deposits in which methane molecules are trapped in a lattice of water – are thought to hold more energy than all other fossil fuels combined.

The Japanese, among others, hope that the reservoirs will become a crucial part of the country’s energy profile, as Nature reported in April 2013. A pilot project 80km off the country’s shores has produced tens of thousands of cubic metres of gas.
As with any new resources there are risks and much work is to be done for safe extraction, but the UN Environmental Program report in March, Frozen Heat: A Global Outlook on Methane Gas Hydrates, was very keen to ‘‘explore the potential impact of this untapped natural gas source on the future global energy mix’’.
Bill, you are suffering from Big Wind. You have let down the party and the nation.

Source:  Gary Johns, The Australian, 27th July 2015

Offline Dee

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2020, 03:26:42 AM »
Just about every thing involved in a wind generator is produced with oil based products.
Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.

Offline oldandslow

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2020, 07:38:46 AM »
It's pie in the sky just like ethanol. Neither will produce enough energy to replace what it requires to get either's product to market. Unlike corn which can be plowed under to enhance the soil, wind generators don't go away when they are worn out.

Offline Ranger99

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2020, 08:27:54 AM »
The public doesn't realize how much more
of a volume of alcohol has to be burned to
get the same work out of an engine as gasoline
18 MINUTES.  . . . . . .

Offline orerancher

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2020, 10:39:35 AM »
Remember, Liberals don't Think...They 'Feel'...And Wind energy. Feels better to Them then Gas or Diesel,  And that's the way they Vote...

Offline Argent 88

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2020, 10:59:21 AM »
Wind energy isn't really all that efficient. In fact it's  very expensive to maintain.

Offline orerancher

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2020, 11:18:10 AM »
Wind energy isn't really all that efficient. In fact it's  very expensive to maintain.
.

And a Blight on the Landscape,  and kill a lot of Birds...

Offline Doublebass73

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2020, 12:23:39 PM »
Electric cars are the same way. It takes large amounts of fossil fuels to build electric cars and their batteries.
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."

---- William Pitt (the Younger), Speech in the House of Commons, November 18, 1783

Offline Land_Owner

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2020, 11:55:14 PM »
Be reminded, we are Preaching to the Choir here.  Liberals don't read!  Liberals do as they are told and react to what the lick spittle Media tells them.  Liberals are mass-fed a daily dose of carp and willing lap it up. 

Conservatives, and those with at least two functioning brain cells (obvious to even the most casual of observers), understand that wind and solar energy are the touchy-feely nebulizers for the continually wounded and blissfully ignorant. 

Offline Dee

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2020, 06:29:21 AM »
Be reminded, we are Preaching to the Choir here.  Liberals don't read!  Liberals do as they are told and react to what the lick spittle Media tells them.  Liberals are mass-fed a daily dose of carp and willing lap it up. 

Conservatives, and those with at least two functioning brain cells (obvious to even the most casual of observers), understand that wind and solar energy are the touchy-feely nebulizers for the continually wounded and blissfully ignorant.

LOL, true,
Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.

Offline Argent 88

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2020, 09:34:53 AM »
Dams and hydro electric is very efficant. But it still took fossil fuels to build them. And maintain them. Heavy bearing and valve grease doesen't come from sunflowers. And at 1800 or 1200 rpm, they need it every 30 days.
Winter is upon us, and natural gas heating is the best, even if your using steam boiler heat exchangers like hospitals do through huge radiators.


Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2020, 10:44:07 PM »
good post Chenago and you could add electric car tech at the level its at to that list too. They do NOTHING to save the environment.
blue lives matter

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2020, 10:45:30 PM »
Not only that but to make one 1000s of acres or land that animals bugs, vegitation, trees and even humans lives on has to be destroyed.
Dams and hydro electric is very efficant. But it still took fossil fuels to build them. And maintain them. Heavy bearing and valve grease doesen't come from sunflowers. And at 1800 or 1200 rpm, they need it every 30 days.
Winter is upon us, and natural gas heating is the best, even if your using steam boiler heat exchangers like hospitals do through huge radiators.
blue lives matter

Offline ironglows

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2020, 11:38:18 PM »
Be reminded, we are Preaching to the Choir here.  Liberals don't read!  Liberals do as they are told and react to what the lick spittle Media tells them.  Liberals are mass-fed a daily dose of carp and willing lap it up. 

Conservatives, and those with at least two functioning brain cells (obvious to even the most casual of observers), understand that wind and solar energy are the touchy-feely nebulizers for the continually wounded and blissfully ignorant.
 
    You are quite correct LO.. leftists don't read many things.  It is not because they are stupid, but rather that they are incredibly stubborn. We all laugh at the idea often stated, which says.."don't bother me with facts, my mind is made up"!    ..But this seems to be the way they operate.  All the truths posted above, are like "water off a duck's back", to them.
   I am convinced that should the democrats take power in the near future, they would initiate all kinds of anti-constitutional acts, involving guns, freedom of speech, freedom of religion and many other America destroying moves..things which would all have to be fought through the courts.
   Then comes the big stroke..packing the SCOTUS with their activist judges, which would in short, ensure the destruction of America  as we know it!

  Before somebody tries to correct me, I am using the term "America", to denote the USA, even though America in a wider context, includes basically, the major land masses of the western hemisphere.
"They have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns, then it will be through the bullet"      (Saul Alinsky) ...hero of the left..

Offline Land_Owner

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2020, 01:48:36 AM »
   I am convinced that should the democrats take power in the near future, they would initiate all kinds of anti-constitutional acts, involving guns, freedom of speech, freedom of religion and many other America destroying moves..things which would all have to be fought through the courts.

I think, fought not the courts, but in the streets, because those that have taken the pledge to uphold and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, will rise up to stop that over reaching carp before it has the chance to get started. The BS-O-meter has moved too far to the LEFT, opposite hand of responsible and sensible meters, and that ain't good.

I had not previously posted it in this thread.  Here goes:

Quote from: General James Mattis
Find the enemy that wants to end this experiment (in American democracy) and kill every one of them until they’re so sick of the killing that they leave us and our freedoms intact.

Offline two-blocked

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2020, 04:45:44 AM »
The average wind turbine produces 20-25 times the energy it takes to produce it over it's life time. A pretty good return for a world that needs to reduce the CO2 we're creating.

Online Graybeard

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2020, 05:07:34 AM »
The average wind turbine produces 20-25 times the energy it takes to produce it over it's life time. A pretty good return for a world that needs to reduce the CO2 we're creating.

I can see where a liberal left winger would believe that. I sure don't.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline orerancher

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2020, 05:38:37 AM »
The average wind turbine produces 20-25 times the energy it takes to produce it over it's life time. A pretty good return for a world that needs to reduce the CO2 we're creating.

I can see where a liberal left winger would believe that. I sure don't.

Sure They do....On Paper...in the Real World, Not even Close...

Offline Dee

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2020, 05:41:16 AM »
I think its something like 17% efficient.
Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.

Offline wtxbadger

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2020, 05:53:44 AM »
Don't know about other states but in Texas the wind turbines are required to have a backup generator in the event the wind quits blowing to keep power to the grid from being interrupted. The generators are required to be running in idle at all times and at the ready. So much for green energy.
wtxbadger

Offline two-blocked

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2020, 07:34:35 AM »

Offline NWBear

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2020, 07:43:31 AM »
The average wind turbine produces 20-25 times the energy it takes to produce it over it's life time. A pretty good return for a world that needs to reduce the CO2 we're creating.

I can see where a liberal left winger would believe that. I sure don't.

Just curious, based on what do you not believe this claim?

Online Graybeard

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2020, 09:03:38 AM »
Since you asked:

I do not believe that CO2 is an issue we need to be worrying about and I do not believe that if it only produces 25 times the energy it took to build it that's a good return on investment.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline Argent 88

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2020, 09:45:56 AM »
Sometimes the blades on a wind turbine don't last as long as they were expected to. Some are failing after just five years. When it was expected to last at least 10-20. Strong west Texas winds are usually the culprit.
In wind like that the turbine is locked down the speed governor can't handle it, or it would fly apart. There is a big wind farm over near Big Spring Texas. And that's what they do. Yes the farms do have a 5 meg back up diesel generator. Which also works for load shedding into the grid when needed.

I worked on them. Usually a Cat or a Cummings. And they auto start and test once a week, with load through an ATS panel and synchroniser. I went out one time where a turbine had slung a blade. That took three weeks to repair.  Crains, tower crews from Amarillo Tx. A crazy job I would never do. But they are a hardy bunch who sure did like their beer when they got off work.

Offline Ranger99

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2020, 10:02:42 AM »
. . . .  A crazy job I would never do. But they are a hardy bunch who sure did like their beer when they got off work.
Gotta wash all that meth down with something.  .
18 MINUTES.  . . . . . .

Offline NWBear

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2020, 01:00:08 PM »
Since you asked:

I do not believe that CO2 is an issue we need to be worrying about and I do not believe that if it only produces 25 times the energy it took to build it that's a good return on investment.

I don't want to turn this into a "climate change" discussion although high CO2 affects other things like ocean acidity, which is a whole other thing.  But, 2500% return on investment is pretty good most places.  Remember the energy input is $0 cost just like hydro, once the system is built (maintenance not withstanding). 
P/S I don't believe in gravity either but so far I haven't been able to fly away.

Offline Argent 88

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2020, 01:22:50 PM »
. . . .  A crazy job I would never do. But they are a hardy bunch who sure did like their beer when they got off work.
Gotta wash all that meth down with something.  .

Yeah, it would take something like that to do that crazy job. They also do those tall communication towers. 
Bunch of monkeys lol. But it does pay darn good from what I hear.

Offline Ranger99

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2020, 03:16:23 PM »
All I know for sure about are the
cell tower climbers in this region.
They pay out the wazzoo and can't
get any long term workers. A friend
that was a tree trimmer tried the
tower route for a few weeks, and
had to leave.  He said everybody he
worked and interacted with was on
meth all day every day, and he was
afraid to be in such a dangerous
fix with a bunch of burnouts. It'd
probably be like these hoodrats
here that run over somebody.
They leave the scene and don't
call for help for fear of arrest.
18 MINUTES.  . . . . . .

Offline magooch

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2020, 06:25:35 PM »
What happened, I was writing a post to second and expound upon what wtxbadger had posted.  Then suddenly my post was gone. 

Anyway, I'll try again, but without the longer explanation.  What wtxbadger stated is true for any part of the country where electrical power is generated. wind power is not reliable--neither is solar power.  There is a practical limit to the distance that electrical power can be shipped cross country.  You cannot have power requirements met for the whole country by certain windy areas of the country.  Even for very windy areas, there has to be standby generation--unless you are willing to settle for erratic power and lots of blackouts.

Where I live, we have an enormous capacity for hydro power; even so our idiot politcians  have required that a percentage of our power must be generated by "renewable power" methodology.  Wind is the only practical energy that meets their definition of "renewable."  Somehow, hydro doesn't count.  The result is that power companies have had to invest in wind mills that sit idle most of the time.  Guess who has to subsidize the investors in wind power whose wind mills are dormant.

Now to make matters even more stupid, some conservation idiots want to start removing functional hydro-power dams.  There is no end to the lunacy of liberals.  Too bad that can't be harnessed to produce power.
Swingem

Offline geezerbiker

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Re: Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation 
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2020, 08:36:35 PM »
Thorium liquid salt reactors are looking better all the time...

Tony