Author Topic: Accuracy: 300 WSM vs 300 win mag.....  (Read 1498 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jonr

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 79
Accuracy: 300 WSM vs 300 win mag.....
« on: February 26, 2004, 09:48:31 AM »
Does anyone have any idea's if one of these bullets is "naturally" more accurate than the other.
I am considering a target/bench shooting gun that will be used for hunting also.
What do you think would be the more accurate round, the .300 WSM or the .300 Win mag?

Thanks!  :D

Jonr

Offline PaulS

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1120
Accuracy: 300 WSM vs 300 win mag.....
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2004, 12:15:08 PM »
All I can say is that the 300 Win Mag was used for years in the 1000 yard matches. I am unaware of any of the "short magnums" being used. I am sure that a Google search would give some info.


PaulS
PaulS

Hodgdon, Lyman, Speer, Sierra, Hornady = reliable resources
so and so's pages on the internet = not reliable resources
Alway check loads you find on the internet against manuals.
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads.

Offline Lawdog

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4464
Accuracy: 300 WSM vs 300 win mag.....
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2004, 02:19:46 PM »
jonr,

My brother in-law and his wife use the Winchester magnums.  Him his old stand-by M70 .300 Win. Mag. and his wife her M70 Coyote .300 WSM.  Their rifles are about as equal as you could make them.  Both weight the same, have the same scope, same length barrel and they shoot loads that are about the same velocity wise.  So saying her .300 WSM M70 Coyote is a little bit more accurate(about .20" 5 shots @ 100 yards) but to me not enough to make any difference.  Lawdog
 :D
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline Fla Brian

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 266
Accuracy: 300 WSM vs 300 win mag.....
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2004, 10:51:19 AM »
One of the design criteria for the short magnum was to replicate, in a scaled up, big game cartridge the accuracy of the popular benchrest cartridges. Since these are short an fat, the new magnum would be, likewise, short and fat. This configuration has proven itself to be more accurate than longer slenderer cartridges.

The PPC and BR cartridges rule the roost in benchrest competition. There was a time that the .222 was the favored .22 cartridge in that sport, but it has been completely eclipsed by the newer cartridges. And the 6mm's built on .222 brass were eclipsed by the 6mm versions of the PPC and BR for ascendancy in the benchrest game.

Incidentally, the factory Winchester .300WSM was preceeded by a wildcat developed by Rick Jamison of Shooting Times, the .300 Jamison. I believe they are ballistic twins.

Since jonr wants a "target/bench shooting gun that will be used for hunting also," even so small an edge over the .300 Win Mag as .2" is significant.

I believe that, as time passes, the WSM will do for the .300 Win Mag what the PPCs and BRs did for the .222 Remington.
Brian
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Instructor
NAHC Life Member
Nil sine magno labore.

Offline jamie

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 332
Accuracy: 300 WSM vs 300 win mag.....
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2004, 02:10:53 AM »
While the WSM's may have the build to be a more accurate round you can not go on 2 rifles and .2"  There are way too many variances between firearms to make that judgement.   Now if you tested a 100 of each from different manufacturers then maybe we would know.  The 300 Win Mag I had would shoot .3" all day and it was a slender barrel hunting rifle.  If I really took my time it shoot below .3" .  I say that you will make more of a difference in shooting than either of these 2 rounds would make.
AMMO...
LiFe, Liberty and the Pursuit of all those that threaten it!

Offline Fla Brian

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 266
Accuracy: 300 WSM vs 300 win mag.....
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2004, 06:53:56 AM »
Jamie,

What you say with regard to one rifle not being a representative sample is true. I was simply using the info in the previous post as a data point.

Over the years, as our knowledge of ballistic science has improved, we have seen some significant changes in cartridge design. A long while ago, all cartridge cases were rimmed and pretty much straight walled.

Then came the bottle necked cartridges using smokeless powder.

It wasn't all that long after that that the first magnums came along. They  had significant body taper and shallow shoulder angles. Just look at a .300 or .375 H&H case to see what I mean. It was thought that such a case design, which ruled the roost in long range competition, was ballistically superior. We now know that that is not the case. In fact, the severe taper and shallow shoulder angle is what is responsible for the fact that Holland & Holland put belts on their cases. The original purpose of those belts was to provide positive headspacing as the rims on other designs do.

Modern cartridge designs do not have nearly as much taper and are designed with sharp enough shoulders that the belt is not necessary. Yet, for generations a "magnum" was not a "magnum" without a belt.
Then, a while back, Ferris Pindell and Lou Palmisano (and Jim Stekl of Remington) discovered that a shorter, fatter cartridge case design was more efficient, and more accurate that the traditional longer, slimmer designs. Thus was the PPC and BR cartridge series born. And they, in particularly the PPC, have dominated benchrest competition ever since.

The new short magnums are the inevitable result of the development of the PPC and BR cartridges. What Winchester and Remington (with their SAUMs) have done is to adapt this ballistic development to the world of big game hunting and long range rifle competition. The new cartridges develop the same velocities and trajectories as the belted magnums using less powder. They are more efficient and inherently more accurate than the designs that preceded them, just as the PPC and BR are improvements on the previous top benchrest cartridges.

That a magnum cartridge must have a belt is fast becoming no longer the view of modern shooters. The belted design takes up space on the bolt face that can be used for a fatter cartridge design with more powder capacity or a shorter, fatter case that will give the advantages of magnum performance in a short action rifle. Short actions mean reduced weight and more stiffness.

Right now I own two rifles on belted magnums, a 7mm Remington and a .300 Winchester. Am I going to rush right out to buy the newer short magnum versions? Heck no! The older designs still suit my purposes admirably. However, if I were a long range target shooter, I surely would. Just a bit more accuracy can often spell the difference between victory and defeat in that arena.

Who knows what the future of cartridge design holds for us? Could it be something like this wildcat, the 6mm Thermos Bottle?



"The 6mm Thermos Bottle was designed by M.L. McPherson in 1999. It is based on shortened Lazzaroni Patriot case (or 416 Rigby). The purpose of this “Thermos Bottle” design was to make a fat and short cartridge, able to handle the heavy 115 grs VLD bullets for 1000-yard benchrest competition. From a 30 inch barrel, it generates approx 3000 fps." (courtesy of www.reloadersnest.com )

One thing's for certain, tomorrow's cartridges will be improvements on what we have today. The only question will be whether or not an individual rifleman will feel the need for those improvements in his/her shooting. And that will be a matter of personal preference.
Brian
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Instructor
NAHC Life Member
Nil sine magno labore.

Offline Coyote Hunter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2534
Accuracy: 300 WSM vs 300 win mag.....
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2004, 09:28:11 AM »
jonr -

If it were me, I'd get the .300 Win Mag and not look back.

Something to consider - I would MUCH rather target shoot with a sporter-weight barreled hunting rifle than hunt with a heavy-barrel target rifle.

Chances are pretty good that in a sporter-weight barrel configuration you'll not see an appreciable difference between the two cartridges.  In the hands of most shooters, other factors like floating and bedding, trigger pull, and load particulars are likely to mask any intrinsic differences in accuracy potential.
Coyote Hunter
NRA, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

Offline Lawdog

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4464
Accuracy: 300 WSM vs 300 win mag.....
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2004, 12:50:19 PM »
Just picked this up.

Quote
From the March 2004 Precision Shooting, Jacob Gottfredson writes...

Tim Lambert competed in the unlimited benchrest class which includes rifles that shoot from rails and weigh as much as 250 pounds (pictured in article) and are sometimes made totally from metal with no conventional stock. Lambert did something a little different.

Lambert used an action taken from a $350 Savage bolt action rifle. He screwed a Hart barrel on it. Instead of using a fiberglass or steel stock, Lambert used a maple stock (not even laminated). Chambered it for 7mm WSM.

Lambert then proceeded to win the 2003 Heavy Gun 1000 Yard Group Championship.

A week later, Lambert won a Mile Long Competition setting a new World's Record of ten inches for five rounds at a mile.

With a Savage action and a plain wood stock !


Kind of proves Winchester and others were right about the short, fat cartridge line of the WSM.  Now I know I am going to get a Savage in the .270 WSM caliber I have been thinking about.  Lawdog
 :D
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.