Author Topic: Deadly Force Discussion  (Read 3123 times)

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Offline Dinny

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Deadly Force Discussion
« on: May 08, 2013, 05:08:33 PM »
Here's a brief history of what leads me to ask my questions and post this discussion. I live in Lawton, OK with my wife and two young children (1 and 3 years old). This city is crime ridden. We live on the outskirts and are rarely affected by the crime. Last month there was a stabbing just a few blocks way from us where a Soldier was stabbed 37 times in his home. Then a few weeks later there was a shooting in town. Shootings occur at a rate of one-three per month. Today one of the Tag Agency offices was held up by three masked criminals. They robbed every person (customers and employees) in the office at gunpoint.

My wife is very concerned about her safety, especially while I am away for field training, overnight duty, etc. We have discussed the pros and cons of lethal and less than lethal protection options. With carrying a handgun we have several cons. First and foremost is the safety concern for our children. They are fast and very curious. We could see their curiosity leading to them playing with a gun if left anywhere lower than the rafters. Also, my wife is inexperienced and has only shot a gun a very few times.

She has reservations about using lethal force when perhaps less than lethal will resolve the situation. She doesn't want to traumatize herself or our children by shooting someone with a gun when they aren't armed with a gun themselves.

She currently has a Kimber Life Act spray gun. I think in most situations a spray gun will work well however, there's only two shots. In today's robbery there were three perps with guns. If those perps decided they were going to shoot people, two shoots of spray would not have been enough. A gun would offer more shots.

What are your thoughts for our situation? I want her to be protected and feel safe, but with a level of everyday safety for her and our children. Is there another type of less than lethal protection that would allow more "shots"?

Thanks, Dinny
Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace"
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Online Graybeard

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2013, 05:20:39 PM »
Until she developes the proper mindset which from what you posted she clearly does not, then a gun isn't likely to help her much. She needs some professional self defense training and advice. She still might never be a candidate for armed self defense, not everyone is.

As for the kids at age three the oldest should already be gun proofed and you still have adequate time to gun proof the younger before that one is old enough to get to guns and be a danger to themself or others.

My little grandson Wyatt was gun proof by the time he was three. He's now five and a half and is safer than most adults around guns. He knows the rules of gun safety and would never darn touch a gun without first getting adult permission and he already knows how to check every gun I own to be sure it is safe. Some he isn't yet strong enough to pull the slide to check but he knows how it is done he just can't do that himself.

My boys were all brought up to understand guns were not toys and were NOT to be touched without my permission. They also knew all they had to do if they wanted to hold one was to ask and wait for it to be made safe. In the process they learned how to make them safe as well. Wyatt has gotten the same training. He owns two bb guns and two rimfire rifles of his own. He's a proficient shot with them but clearly understands that unless me or his dad takes him up to our backyard range he doesn't get to shoot.

You can't child proof guns in the house so you must gun proof the child.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

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Offline Dinny

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2013, 05:25:00 PM »
Bill,
  Thanks for the advice. Until recently (in light of recent events) my wife has been against guns and saw no need for them. She has been a deterrent to gun proofing our daughter. Perhaps now that will change.

She has a self-defense class scheduled next week.

Thanks, Dinny
Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace"
Thomas Paine

Offline dougk

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2013, 06:40:46 PM »
Until she developes the proper mindset which from what you posted she clearly does not, then a gun isn't likely to help her much. She needs some professional self defense training and advice. She still might never be a candidate for armed self defense, not everyone is.

As for the kids at age three the oldest should already be gun proofed and you still have adequate time to gun proof the younger before that one is old enough to get to guns and be a danger to themself or others.

My little grandson Wyatt was gun proof by the time he was three. He's now five and a half and is safer than most adults around guns. He knows the rules of gun safety and would never darn touch a gun without first getting adult permission and he already knows how to check every gun I own to be sure it is safe. Some he isn't yet strong enough to pull the slide to check but he knows how it is done he just can't do that himself.

My boys were all brought up to understand guns were not toys and were NOT to be touched without my permission. They also knew all they had to do if they wanted to hold one was to ask and wait for it to be made safe. In the process they learned how to make them safe as well. Wyatt has gotten the same training. He owns two bb guns and two rimfire rifles of his own. He's a proficient shot with them but clearly understands that unless me or his dad takes him up to our backyard range he doesn't get to shoot.

You can't child proof guns in the house so you must gun proof the child.


I agree with everything Bill stated.


My wife is now starting to fully understand the extent of evil in the world.  She had held the view that nothing bad could/would ever happen to us. 


Good luck with your situation

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2013, 07:00:41 PM »
If you are worried about a Home invasion while you are away, what about Armoring your bedroom or one of the kids.  Depending on the location of the bedrooms.  And if it is easier to bring them to you, or to go to them and lock your self in there.  Make a poor mans safe room.  It may not be as expensive as you think 
Reinforce the Bedroom walls, the door and the Door frame.  That can be resisted untill the police arive.  A hole above the door with a BEAR pepper spray fire extinguisher to spray into the hall will buy time.  Mount it so all she will have to do arm it and spray it so all of it goes out into the hall.  It can be hidden in the wall by a picture and the nozzle mounted int the hall through the wall.  The alrge volume of gas in the hall may deter them and drive them out. 
Keep a cell phone in the bedroom and charged so the police can be called. 
And yes if she is not comfortable using deadly force then do not try to make her.  The panic may have her shooting the wrong people.   

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2013, 04:46:01 AM »
What Bill said is exactly right!
I always tell people in this situation they must commit to three things:

First they must be intimately familiar with their firearm.

Second they must know when they are authorized, under the laws of their jurisdiction, to employ deadly force; and

third, they must be psychologically prepared to employ that deadly force.

If they are not totally committed to all three of these conditions, Brian's alternative is an excellent solution!
Richard
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Offline Dinny

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2013, 05:09:13 AM »
Thanks for the advice. We practice home safety by keeping doors closed and locked and increased vigilance.  We have a barricade plan and my wife has access to bright flashlights and a short baseball bat. Our home is protected with an advanced security system for early warning. I need to work on the other areas now.

Thanks, Dinny
Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace"
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Offline keith44

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2013, 06:28:10 AM »
Bill is exactly right, and good job with scheduling the class.


For me and my wife, being in a rural setting in Ky, barricading is not something we would consider.  Both of us are ready and willing to defend ourselves from home invasions. 


If the area you live in is as crime ridden as you say (and I have no reason to doubt your word) why stay?  Moving a few miles further out can also provide a safer environment at the cost of increasing your commute.
keep em talkin' while I reload
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Offline wolverine_1

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2013, 06:45:08 AM »
I agree with the advice given above.  Several years ago, I had a co worker whose neighborhood had become "difficult" to live in.  He asked me what kind of a gun to buy to protect himself and his wife.  He didn't know a thing about guns and really wasn't interested, so I suggested no gun but either tear gas or pepper spray.  He and his family were much safer 'till he moved to a better neighborhood.
Gene

Offline Dinny

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2013, 02:33:00 PM »
Keith,
  Our neighborhood is one of the safer ones in town. Houses get real far with few between when you travel farther away than I already am. Duncan is the next town East of us and it's 30 miles away. You never hear of any serious crimes there. :-\

Thanks, Dinny
Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace"
Thomas Paine

Offline thumper113

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Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2013, 03:07:58 PM »
Dinny,

My youngest daughter growing up was my hunting and fishing buddy.  Both daughters were dead shots by the time they were seven.

When my youngest "grew up" she became one of "them" and refused to have a firearm in her home.  She threw a fit when she found out that her son had been learning to handle firearms when he was three.

At first I told her that what she did in her home was her business but this was my home and firearms were still a part of it just as much as when she was growing up.  She quietly simmered.  Then I asked her who she felt more comfortable with handling firearms, her or husband.  "We'll me, I've grown up with them and know what I'm doing."  My point was made.  To ease her mind I told her to be quiet and just watch.

I called my grandson in to show him my wife's new pistol.  He immediately asked where the safety was, dropped the magazine and tried to work the slide to see if it was loaded.

She never ever complained after that. 

Guns that are hidden away are mysteries to be explored.  Firearms that are frequently handled with a safety routine ingrained are tools respected.

Everyone should be taught to handle a firearm safely.  The example was the school kid who had to clear the weapon when a teacher found one at school.  She didn't know what to do but one of her 11 year old students did.

A friend of mine got divorced a year ago and wanted a firearm for protection.  I told her of course I'd help her but she had to seriously think on two things before I would do it.   A firearm isn't a threat.  It is made to kill.  The second was she had to promise to visit the range with me on a regular basis.  That if she couldn't hit what she was aiming at calm, there was no way she would scared.  If she couldn't hit them it was more of a danger to her and 911 would be her best defense.

You know better than most that taking another's life isn't an easy thing.  Many just can't do it. 

Glad you went with the self defense classes.

But talk to her and start your kids on firearms safety.  Remove the mystery and teach them properly.  You can't be with them 24/7 the rest of their lives and you never know when they might need it.

Beside my little girls used to love out shooting the boys hanging around as they got older.  ;-)
God Bless Our Troops!

Offline Dinny

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2013, 03:16:54 PM »
I think some of my reservations for my wife to use deadly force come from my own experiences. Killing is not an easy thing to do. War and an insatiable desire to survive do make it seem logical though. For her, we'll focus on the insatiable desire to survive. ;)

Thanks, Dinny
Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace"
Thomas Paine

Offline FPH

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2013, 03:20:35 PM »
I use to make my wife watch episodes of COPS every so often.  I just wanted her to see that not everyone has the same mind set when it gets down to it.

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2013, 03:26:33 PM »
What Bill said is exactly right!
I always tell people in this situation they must commit to three things:

First they must be intimately familiar with their firearm.

Second they must know when they are authorized, under the laws of their jurisdiction, to employ deadly force; and

third, they must be psychologically prepared to employ that deadly force.

If they are not totally committed to all three of these conditions, Brian's alternative is an excellent solution!

 I teach a few ladies gun safety and use of firearms for defense from time to time, and that is almost to the letter what we go through.
 
Main point is; If you have doubts that you can use lethal force, do not have the gun in your hands. A firm comittment to kill if necessary is essential! If you dont think you can or have reservations hide and call 911. Its not my prefered plan but to pull a firearm out that you may not be able and willing to use could be catastrofic.
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

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Offline Spirithawk

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2013, 04:08:16 PM »
Buy a dog.

Offline Dinny

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2013, 04:16:49 PM »
Buy a dog.

An excellent idea, except my wife is deathly afraid of them due to a childhood attack.

Thanks, Dinny
Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace"
Thomas Paine

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2013, 05:13:01 PM »
Buy a dog.

An excellent idea, except my wife is deathly afraid of them due to a childhood attack.

Thanks, Dinny
Buy a robot dog that makes noise.  Add a Recording of a dog barking to the Door bell and have it so that you can hit a button and have the Robot Dog bark if someone knocks.  Put out a large water bowl and a large bowl for food.  A loud "Quiet" as the recording stops will go a long way.
One day while at my friends house two guys pulled up to drop off some papers for my friend's father.  They started honking and yelling, I came up from the pool to see what was going on.  They rolled down the window and pointed at the 15" dog bowl  and 3 gallon stainless steel bucket as a water bowl, and said we are not sure what eats out of that bowl, but we do not want to meet it and no matter what I said they were not getting out of the car.  The Dog was a French police dog (bouviet- SP), named Bear and she was a sweat heart even though she was about 90 pounds with wirey black hair.   

Offline Empty Quiver

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2013, 05:36:12 PM »
I have no idea what a CCW class amounts to in Ok., hell I don't even know if they exist.


The one mandated by Mn. goes over the very things you are questioning, they spend roughly 6 hours doing so. For many it is redundant, preaching to the choir as it were. There are those like your wife though who are able to greatly benefit. NACFI is the outfit that provides the educational materials for the one I attended.


My wife attended to humor me. She left with a different outlook, I'll just call it more enlightened. Around here it is roughly $100 and at the end of it all you can go get your carry permit, or not it matters not to the instructor. I would encourage her to attend something similar especially one geared towards women.


Stress situational awareness, and all of the aspects of a plan. The LTL options have their own issues, some states consider them on roughly the same plain as guns.


Hearing all of these things from another source than yourself can't hurt.
**Concealed Carry...Because when seconds count help is only minutes away**

Offline Lonegun1894

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2013, 11:32:24 PM »
Dinny,
I teach a lot of concealed handgun classes, along with other self-defense classes for both men and women.  The best way I have found to convince women is this.  Now you have to remain calm and take as much time as it takes, while not being pushy about it cause if you put them on the defensive, they will just block you out, and then convince them slowly and gently.  I usually do this by establishing the end goal, and then leading them to the conclusion and how to achive it.  "What is your ULTIMATE RESPONSIBILITY in life?"  Most start with doing their job, or earning a paycheck, or taking care of the house while their husband is away, or something along those lines that, at least for the purposes of this conversation, is piddly crap.  Eventually I lead them to taking care of their kids if they don't get there by themselves.  I explain to them that the only thing they HAVE to do at the end of the day is go home to their loved ones, and protect their kids.  Once they get that in their heads, they usually start turning around.  Some have said that they would shoot to protect their kids but not themselves, so I remind them that the parents take care of the kids, so the parents need to be safe to be there for the kids, and need to be protected just as much.  Also explain to her that SHE is not the criminal, she is the good person and good mother who is trying to protect her kids FROM the criminal.  The criminal, as you have plenty of examples locally, has no values or morals, and is a lethal threat to you, her, and your kids.  We just had a POS arrested here for raping a 2 yr old, I believe about 6 months ago, and we have women of all ages raped constantly all over our country.  Since SHE is a woman, and if either of your kids is female too, some criminals basically see any female as entertainment, regardless of age, and they have no mercy.  It is her job to protect her family when you are not there to do it.
 
Besides, like I said she is not looking for trouble, she is not the criminal.  So she will not be killing the criminal that kicks down your door (should that happen, and I pray it never does).  The criminal will have committed suicide, and chosen her as the tool of their death.  The criminal chose to committ the crime that ended in their getting injured or killed, and she chose to keep her loved ones and herself safe. 
 
IIRC, you have extensive medical training, so if you haven't yet, educate her on at least basic aid and anatomy.  Once that is accomplished, explain to her that since she knows what to fix, she knows what to break also.  Target effective areas on the assailants body.  After all, she is not trying to kill him, she is trying to stop him from harming her and hers.  However, she must not care in the least weather her stopping him results in his death, injury, or hopefully he gets smart and stops his aggression before she does send lead into him.  And just as with your unit, if something happens to where she does have to act, make sure she has done nothing wrong, reward and praise her for keeping her and hers safe, even while the legal repercussions are going on.  Don't ever make her feel like she did anything wrong in protecting herself and your kids, and try to keep her from making herself feel like it.  Look past what she did to the turd, but rather at the positive she accomplished by doing it.  You have seen the reactions and consequences in some of your guys in your unit, and possibly yourself.  This is no different in how you deal with it.  Do not disarm her because that will make her feel not trusted, and since the investigating LE agency will probably take whatever weapon she uses for the duration of the investigation, give her another to replace it.  This is a psychological thing.  If she turns it down, and she may, so be it, but it has to be her decision, not yours or anyone elses. 
 
Just work slow, be encouraging, and teach her, at her pace.  If you force her, she will get resistant and refuse to learn, so tailor the training sessions to her comfort, both lenght, intensity, etc.  Just keep it fun if possible, and make sure she knows how to handle her chosen weapon and is comfortable with it.  Eventually, it will become second nature and she will be able to use it as if it was a part of her, and will do so if you can get her to accept the psychological aspect of using lethal force if she needs to.  Like has been said though, not everyone can so don't push too hard.
 
As to the dog, I was going to suggest that, but have an idea for a compromise.  Is she scared of all dogs, or just big ones, or maybe just the type that she was attacked by?  If it is a specific type, just get something else.  If it is big ones, get something small.  I mean, even a chihuahua can make enough noise to alert you and her when something is wrong and buy you time to get to your safe room, or your weapon.  I have two dogs, and the small one is 90 lbs, while the big one stands as tall as I do when up on his hind legs.  The big one is a year older and I trained him for defense and guard dog duty, and he does the job well.  The smaller one is in training, and moving along well, but not quite where I want her yet.  But even with this training, they are both very loving and friendly unless they need to act otherwise.  Maybe you can get your wife around some dogs on occasion and let the dogs convince her that the vast majority of them truly are "man's best friend", and not like whatever the one that got her was like.  And if you're ever down my way, y'all are more than welcome to go hit the range with me and go play, so just let me know.

Offline Dinny

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2013, 03:48:24 PM »
LG1894,
  That's a lot of good information. We have been talking more and actually have looked at a couple of small guns. Right now the Ruger LCP is looking promising but only after we get a 7rd magazine for it with the longer grip. .380 ACP ammo is hard to find in our area so we may look at some 9mm and 38Spec guns too. But, we're not rushing into anything and talking about every step of the process.

Thanks, Dinny
Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace"
Thomas Paine

Offline mechanic

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2013, 04:12:43 PM »
Dinny,
 
For home defense for an inexperienced person, or (me), I always have recommended a shotgun.  A double barrel or pump, or even a single.  I have a daughter who was like your wife.  When her husband began working around the world and was gone for weeks at a time, she refused to think about a gun.  She lived on a 52 acre country home hundreds of yards off the road, and was remiss about locking the doors even.
 
One night I drove out about 2:00 am, walked in the front door and on to her bedroom.  I clapped my hands above her head loudly, and when she screamed I calmly said, "too late, the bad guy got you, now he's going for the kids".
 
She carries her shotgun shells in her pocket now, even while sleeping, and the gun is 2' away.  The doors are locked and she has a dog.  The grand daughter, (14) and grandson (11) are all proficient with the shotgun as well.
 
Cover as many bases as you can.  It's getting ugly out there.
 
Ben
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Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2013, 04:28:22 PM »
Good post Ben. 
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Offline Lonegun1894

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2013, 06:23:33 PM »
Dinny,
I just hope you get this done, and it sounds like you're making good progress.  It's a frustrating thankless job, but we have to keep trying for the ones we love cause we can't always be there to do it for them.  Just keep your head up and keep plodding along, you will accomplish your goal.
Paul

Offline Mikey

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2013, 02:06:48 AM »
Dinny: your situation is typical.  Some wives don't want to have to learn how to defend themselves as they feel it is the husband's job to do that and they just resist all your efforts either through hesitation or deference.  Get yourself up to the political action forums and read the post about 'how many rounds does it take' and watch the video clip.  That one is a good indication of what dopers respond like to being shot/shot at and what it is like to be under invasion by more than one assailant.
 
Your wife needs to watch that.  Possibly also she needs to watch the old Charles Bronson movie (Death Wish) about the time his wife and daughter are attacked, raped and killed; and she needs to change her dang attitude.  Ask her which is the most important - her attitude about killing a home invader in her own defense or watching her baby's skull crushed by some doper who can't stand the crying. 
 
Often, husbands make the mistake of offering their wives ineffective choices and the wife will, of course, most often choose the most ineffective of choices there is or even offer up some  much lesser option.  There is no choice here; you either live or die.  If she is not willing to make the decision about how to properly and most effectively deal with a deadly threat, then you make the decision, but you have to hold her to it. 
 
There are graphic enough videos on the net that should bring you and your wife to nausea over what happens during a home invasion.  Maybe she needs to see more of those videos.  I do not feel this is a situation where there should be any 'give and take', unless it is - give me a headache by breaking through my door and I will give you a belly full of lead. 
 
Or, if she doesn't want to use 'deadly' force, then teach her to be good enough with a gun so that she can only wound to kill ...

Offline Mikey

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2013, 02:17:44 AM »
Oh yeah, one more thing:  I don't care if the label sez Kimber, if it ain't a gun with a whole bunch of ammo then it isn't worth schmidt. 
 
The non-lethal thing doesn't work against doped up, drugged up, 'feelin' no pain', 'gotta get me my next fix' home invasion attitude, but you can try this - get a couple of large cans of Raid Wasp and Hornet Killer and a butane lighter - spray a target (out to 20' I think) and hose it down, and then flick your bic and use the can as a flamethrower - you might be absolutely surprised how incredibly effective that can be.  In fact, take a old t-shirt or button up, hang it over a cardboard cut-out of a silhouette and spray away, and then watch it 'flame on' when you hit it with a spark.  Fun time if you don't mind the smell of burning chicken, but that's one hell of a lot better than the taste of a chestfull of blood in your mouth.   You can also try Bear spray.....

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2013, 02:22:27 AM »
Here's a brief history of what leads me to ask my questions and post this discussion. I live in Lawton, OK with my wife and two young children (1 and 3 years old). This city is crime ridden. We live on the outskirts and are rarely affected by the crime. Last month there was a stabbing just a few blocks way from us where a Soldier was stabbed 37 times in his home. Then a few weeks later there was a shooting in town. Shootings occur at a rate of one-three per month. Today one of the Tag Agency offices was held up by three masked criminals. They robbed every person (customers and employees) in the office at gunpoint.

My wife is very concerned about her safety, especially while I am away for field training, overnight duty, etc. We have discussed the pros and cons of lethal and less than lethal protection options. With carrying a handgun we have several cons. First and foremost is the safety concern for our children. They are fast and very curious. We could see their curiosity leading to them playing with a gun if left anywhere lower than the rafters. Also, my wife is inexperienced and has only shot a gun a very few times.

She has reservations about using lethal force when perhaps less than lethal will resolve the situation. She doesn't want to traumatize herself or our children by shooting someone with a gun when they aren't armed with a gun themselves.

She currently has a Kimber Life Act spray gun. I think in most situations a spray gun will work well however, there's only two shots. In today's robbery there were three perps with guns. If those perps decided they were going to shoot people, two shoots of spray would not have been enough. A gun would offer more shots.

What are your thoughts for our situation? I want her to be protected and feel safe, but with a level of everyday safety for her and our children. Is there another type of less than lethal protection that would allow more "shots"?

Thanks, Dinny

True story, when I married my wife Richmond was the number 2 murder city in America per population. We hit #1 several times for short periods of time. If you look at Richmond on a map you can see it would make a good illegal drug hub along with other crime. Well my new wife had never had to deal with such as she was from another place. She did allow me to teach her to shoot if only for fun shooting. She also was not concerned . Well a few things happened close by and she changed. I went fishing and got home late one sat. night. As I stepped on the next to top step of the stairs (it creaked)going to the bed room I heard that distinctive sound of a S&W mod 28 being cocked. I yelled "IT"S ME" she says how do ya uncock this thing  :o . So maybe her sense of self protection or child protection will kick in.
I had told mine that having a gun and knowing how to use it gave her a chance . She could decide to use it or not. Mine said she was glad to have had a choice.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline JustaShooter

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2013, 10:09:33 AM »
Quote
As I stepped on the next to top step of the stairs (it creaked)going to the bed room I heard that distinctive sound of a S&W mod 28 being cocked.

That's enough to make you hit pucker factor 4 isn't it  :o. My wife has progressed past that point - that is, you won't hear anything at all, unless you manage to make out the soft rustle of a Ruger P89 clearing gunleather.  Good thing I've drilled positive target identification into her  ;).
Christian, Husband, Father
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Anything I post in these forums is my personal opinion formed by my own interpretation of the topic.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2013, 10:19:20 AM »
Mine is well versed these days that was 35 years ago  ;)
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline shot1

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2013, 03:05:32 AM »
I agree with the education of your children about guns VERY EARLY and most of what has been said. I help teach the TN handgun carry class and one thing I have learned is that a woman will shoot a bad guy quicker than most men will. If a woman even thinks that someone is going to mess with her kids they will shoot. If you are going to arm your wife with a pistol make it a revolver. Unless she practices A LOT, at least once a week, she will not be able to clear a misfire, jam, etc. of a semi-auto in a high stress situation. To clear a misfire of a revolver you just pull the trigger again. The situation of the holdup that you described with 3 or 4 intruders is a perfect example of the need for a M4 style AR-15 with 30 round mags for home defense. These days the bad guys seem to be traveling in groups. AR-15 with light hollow points to limit penetration is perfect. Women can shoot them really well with a little training because they have almost no recoil but they pack a lot of firepower.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Deadly Force Discussion
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2013, 03:10:03 AM »
Mine likes the Remington 870 in youth 20 ga. extended magazine 20 inch barrel. Says the AR has to many levers and buttons. And like semi auto pistols , just to hard to work the action.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !