Are Bolt Actions the Most "Finicky" Action?

[flmason]

Hi All,
    Seems to me, coming from a handgunner's background mostly, that bolt guns seem to have the most talk about need for accurizing...

Free floating barrels... pillar bedding.... glass bedding... truing the actions... and so on.

Or the one I'm thinking about most... the point of impact moving when you tear down, clean and reassemble the gun.  <--- This worries me.... I've never worried about that before bolt guns. This strikes me as a *very* bad thing.

I don't hear much of that for the other action types. Perhaps because levers, pumps etc. don't have full stocks... whippy barrels and such.

So what's the story?

Is it just that bolt guys are obsessed with MOA groups, or are the bolt guns really just sensitive to every little thing?

[SHOOTALL]

Hi All,
    Seems to me, coming from a handgunner's background mostly, that bolt guns seem to have the most talk about need for accurizing...Depends on you investment up front or age of the gun. A lot of new guns even less expensive guns have better stocks and shoot well out the box. Older guns often have stocks touching the barrel forward of the front screw holding the action in the stock. this sometimes causes problems as the gun heats up from firing. Many are tack drivers out the box or off the bench as the case may be.

Free floating barrels... pillar bedding.... glass bedding... truing the actions... and so on. mostly older or less quality guns these days OR a gun someone wants to wring out every bit of accuracy . A lot of folks shoot paper now and have to have that less than 1 inch group at 100 yards .

Or the one I'm thinking about most... the point of impact moving when you tear down, clean and reassemble the gun.  <--- This worries me.... I've never worried about that before bolt guns. This strikes me as a *very* bad thing. On a quality gun if you torque your screws when replacing the action back into the stock each time to the same inch lbs. a lot of that will go away . You also need to know where the first shot will go from a clean cold barrel.

I don't hear much of that for the other action types. Perhaps because levers, pumps etc. don't have full stocks... whippy barrels and such. They all have problems but you have to ask how many lever guns or pump guns do you see at high power rifle matches ? Most likely they aren't accurate to compete to start with.

So what's the story? The bolt gun is the strongest and best gun to build an accurate gun. The things you mention are most often done to improve a good gun and make it better .

Is it just that bolt guys are obsessed with MOA groups, or are the bolt guns really just sensitive to every little thing? Only some 

[flmason]

Hi All,
    Seems to me, coming from a handgunner's background mostly, that bolt guns seem to have the most talk about need for accurizing...Depends on you investment up front or age of the gun. A lot of new guns even less expensive guns have better stocks and shoot well out the box. Older guns often have stocks touching the barrel forward of the front screw holding the action in the stock. this sometimes causes problems as the gun heats up from firing. Many are tack drivers out the box or off the bench as the case may be.

Free floating barrels... pillar bedding.... glass bedding... truing the actions... and so on. mostly older or less quality guns these days OR a gun someone wants to wring out every bit of accuracy . A lot of folks shoot paper now and have to have that less than 1 inch group at 100 yards .

Or the one I'm thinking about most... the point of impact moving when you tear down, clean and reassemble the gun.  <--- This worries me.... I've never worried about that before bolt guns. This strikes me as a *very* bad thing. On a quality gun if you torque your screws when replacing the action back into the stock each time to the same inch lbs. a lot of that will go away . You also need to know where the first shot will go from a clean cold barrel.

I don't hear much of that for the other action types. Perhaps because levers, pumps etc. don't have full stocks... whippy barrels and such. They all have problems but you have to ask how many lever guns or pump guns do you see at high power rifle matches ? Most likely they aren't accurate to compete to start with.

So what's the story? The bolt gun is the strongest and best gun to build an accurate gun. The things you mention are most often done to improve a good gun and make it better .

Is it just that bolt guys are obsessed with MOA groups, or are the bolt guns really just sensitive to every little thing? Only some 

So torque wrench is a standard piece of kit for bolt gun guys? Hmm... gonna have to see if they make something less cumbersome that those old jobbies with the foot long indicator on them.

It does strike me as strange (just sprang for an M77) that Ruger doesn't free float the barrels, like almost every other maker these days. I'd think free floating would be the most consistent way to go in terms of expecting it to keep it's zero across stripping and cleaning.

[FPH]

I never have had an issue with my bolt guns.  I did the free floating and bedding just the wring out all the accuracy I could.  If my guns didin't shoot less than 1" at 300 yds,I didn't use to win any money.  (my insintave at the time).  Now I'm just happy to get to shoot.  All the extra work isn't necessary for a good hunter..

[SHOOTALL]

Cabala's and BassPro both have a nice kit more like a screw driver than a wrench , works well.  Often you can play with the torque to fine tune a gun. Some like 50 inch lbs others 55 or 60 once you find it you can repeat it also some screws need oil to get a good torque .

[JPShelton]

My old M77RL in .250 Savage doesn't have a free floated barrel.  It groups between .650" - .780" and the all-important first shot goes where aimed. 
 
A couple of weeks ago, I went to the range on a wet, rainy day.  The rifle got wet, so I seperated the barreled action from the stock, oiled the barrled action, and let the stock dry out before re-assembling.  I put it back together a few days later, and headed off to the range.  First shot hit the X ring, as did the next four.
 
In my case, I don't see free floating doing a whole lot for me.  The rifle is already more accurate than any centerfire with such a thin barrel profile should be.  I'm reluctant to diddle with it because it works so well as is and my concern is that it might not work as well if I messed around with free floating and bedding the action, etc.
 
My old Remington 721 in .270 didn't have a free floated barrel, either.  It grouped down to .550" with excellent first shot from a clean, cold barrel consistency.
 
Sometimes you get lucky, I guess, and they shoot great in the same condition they left the factory in, with no futzing around required. 
 
JP

[Bugflipper]

Popular and practical are two different things. Free float barrels are popular but not always practical for accuracy. Heavy barrels usually do best free floated. Since folks think accurate barrels are free floated they want them all free floated. The manufacturers ablige, but usually you get better accuracy with upward pressure near the end of the forearm with a sported barrel.
As far as tinkering with them, most companies are in the business of producing as many rifles as cheaply as possible. If a fellow wants better than stock accuracy he can usually tinker a bit and do what the factory would have done if time didn't equal money.

[SHOOTALL]

Free  floating a barrel is the simplest way to insure the barrel reacts the same every shot. When a barrel is supported past the front of the receiver with a pressure point and reacts the same , Rugers seem to like that, then nothing is wrong with it.  But other influences should be considered such as stock material and if it absorbs moisture or sheds it as that could change POA. If you don't have a lot of issues like that then your rifle is fine. If you shoot enough to really heat the barrel up that in conjunction with a pressure point might effect poa. I have a 2506 that has never been out of the stock but once for a trigger job 25 years ago. I couldn't tell you if it touches the stock or if it does where , it is a tight fit. With a good scope it will keep all bullets inside a nickel at 100 yards for a 5 shot group. Can't see fooling with it. On the other hand I have had a couple rifles that free floating really improved.
 I have never bedded an action but I hunt and never saw the need. Over the last couple years I have been target shooting with a 308 , 26 inch hvy bbl. It has a HS precision stock with alum. blocks but some of the guys I shoot with say I should bed it others say it's a waste. I have not shot it on paper past 100 yards , depending on load it will hold an inch to 3/4 inch with best loads. Others will open to 2 inches. At 300 yards it will hit a drink can when I have a good rest. At this point it seems the rifle shoots as well or better than I so until I get better is it worth the effort to bed it ?
 I have heard old shooters who had won their share of competition say most rifles shoot better than most shooters. When I shared the range with them they never said the rifle missed it was always " I messed that one up and they could tell you where the shot went before looking thru. the spotting scope.
 So maybe bolt action shooters are more "FINICKY" than other action type shooters . 

[BruceP]

If you do decide to get and use a torque wrench get one of the screwdriver types that work in inch pounds not the ratchet type that work in foot pounds. I know you can get a small ratchet type in inch pounds but they are harder to use. (I have both).

Bruce

[flmason]

My old M77RL in .250 Savage doesn't have a free floated barrel.  It groups between .650" - .780" and the all-important first shot goes where aimed. 
 
A couple of weeks ago, I went to the range on a wet, rainy day.  The rifle got wet, so I seperated the barreled action from the stock, oiled the barrled action, and let the stock dry out before re-assembling.  I put it back together a few days later, and headed off to the range.  First shot hit the X ring, as did the next four.
 
In my case, I don't see free floating doing a whole lot for me.  The rifle is already more accurate than any centerfire with such a thin barrel profile should be.  I'm reluctant to diddle with it because it works so well as is and my concern is that it might not work as well if I messed around with free floating and bedding the action, etc.
 
My old Remington 721 in .270 didn't have a free floated barrel, either.  It grouped down to .550" with excellent first shot from a clean, cold barrel consistency.
 
Sometimes you get lucky, I guess, and they shoot great in the same condition they left the factory in, with no futzing around required. 
 
JP

Just went in and did the paperwork on the M77 I ordered in 30-06... Have to admit, compared to any military .30 cal I've ever owned or seen, it has the skinniest, whippiest little barrel (at least at the muzzle) that I have ever seen. Not real impressed with that. Was really shocked at how thin the bolt seems too.

On the whole the thing seems just to "fragile". Picked up a Buffalo Classic that was on the rack... felt much better to me, LOL! But of the others I checked out, I'd say the best handling was a Marlin lever gun. Not much fussing you can do with one of those. It's all attached to the metal receiver section.

Anyway, will be bringing home after the 10 day wait, definitely seems like a nice gun, but not exactly durable. I'm not sure I'll ever buy a "sporter" ever again to be honest.

I guess growing up un a house with Mausers and other milsurps in it, I have a skewed perception of how solid a gun should be.

Sounds amazing that you had such good luck with that soaked stock.

[flmason]

 So maybe bolt action shooters are more "FINICKY" than other action type shooters . 

This is what I was wondering about, LOL!

[mcwoodduck]

Of the different actions the Bolt seems to be the most accurate. 
Free floating the barrel allows the harmonics of the barrel (barrels ring like a bell when you shoot them) to do what they want to.
If you apply pressure ot the barrel it does not allow that barrel to fully move to fully realize accuracy.
Synthetic stocks are also ways to increase accuracy.  As the plastics are not subject to humidity or temp as much as wood is. 
Bedding the action makes the barrel move free and not vibrate the action that will cause a little variation and move the bullet.
If you were to take a bolt action, a lever action, slide action, and semi auto. The bolt will be the most accurate out of the box. 
The bolt is the strongest action.  The lever guns have a stock and or a magizine touching the barrel.  The slide action, depending on design will have a barrel touching as well as a loose front stock.  The semi auto, despite the recient articles in the gun rags are not as accurate as a bolt pound for pound and a lot has to be done to the auto to make it as accurate as a bolt.  The you look at the cost of the accurate semi autos vs a bolt you can get two bolts for one auto and be as accurate. 
What you are reading about free floating the gun, about torqueing the action about a harris bipod as a rest are all cheap and easy ways to increase the accuracy of a bolt gun that can be done at home with a torque wrench and some sand paper.   Proper mounting of the optics too will help and using an anarobic adhesive to lock down the screws will help. 
And depending on what your goal is in the rifle is what you will do, 
A lever action has been acurate enough to put game in the meat locker for almost 150 years. 
Bolt actions for the past 125 years
Breach loading single shot the same as the lever action
and pump and semi autos for at least 75 years. 
All have been great to hunt with as soon as they came out and are more than enough for North American game of all sizes.
If you are looking for a 1,000 yard rifle, then you will need to do every trick in the book to make it as accurate as possible,  if you are looking for a 300 yard and under hunting rifle for big game then shooting the same rifle is going to be your better bet. 

[flmason]

Of the different actions the Bolt seems to be the most accurate. 
Free floating the barrel allows the harmonics of the barrel (barrels ring like a bell when you shoot them) to do what they want to.
If you apply pressure ot the barrel it does not allow that barrel to fully move to fully realize accuracy.
Synthetic stocks are also ways to increase accuracy.  As the plastics are not subject to humidity or temp as much as wood is. 
Bedding the action makes the barrel move free and not vibrate the action that will cause a little variation and move the bullet.
If you were to take a bolt action, a lever action, slide action, and semi auto. The bolt will be the most accurate out of the box. 
The bolt is the strongest action.  The lever guns have a stock and or a magizine touching the barrel.  The slide action, depending on design will have a barrel touching as well as a loose front stock.  The semi auto, despite the recient articles in the gun rags are not as accurate as a bolt pound for pound and a lot has to be done to the auto to make it as accurate as a bolt.  The you look at the cost of the accurate semi autos vs a bolt you can get two bolts for one auto and be as accurate. 
What you are reading about free floating the gun, about torqueing the action about a harris bipod as a rest are all cheap and easy ways to increase the accuracy of a bolt gun that can be done at home with a torque wrench and some sand paper.   Proper mounting of the optics too will help and using an anarobic adhesive to lock down the screws will help. 
And depending on what your goal is in the rifle is what you will do, 
A lever action has been acurate enough to put game in the meat locker for almost 150 years. 
Bolt actions for the past 125 years
Breach loading single shot the same as the lever action
and pump and semi autos for at least 75 years. 
All have been great to hunt with as soon as they came out and are more than enough for North American game of all sizes.
If you are looking for a 1,000 yard rifle, then you will need to do every trick in the book to make it as accurate as possible,  if you are looking for a 300 yard and under hunting rifle for big game then shooting the same rifle is going to be your better bet.

For me, as much hunting as I actually plan to do, it may be academic, in all honesty.

What my actual concern is, I tend to do a full disassembly (short of barrel removal of course) with most of guns for cleaning, and generally put them up well oiled. Generally never know how long they will be sitting.... So the thought was... "Geez all these things... that can affect point of impact on this type of gun... how could you ever strip it, put it back together and ever expect it to still be zeroed?"

Never was a worry with handguns or milsurps, but then neither are expected to be MOA either.

But even so, it's nice, even if the gun has a scattergun pattern, to know it's about the same place it was last time.

[mcwoodduck]

Before you sight it in, take it apart, and clean and oil it.
The reassemble it.  and sight it in.  The rifle will be zeroed for the way you put the rifle togoether and how tight you make the screws. 
The next time you tear the gun  apart for a full cleaning you will put it back together again they same way. 

[flmason]

Before you sight it in, take it apart, and clean and oil it.
The reassemble it.  and sight it in.  The rifle will be zeroed for the way you put the rifle togoether and how tight you make the screws. 
The next time you tear the gun  apart for a full cleaning you will put it back together again they same way.

Now that's a though. I like it.

[ironglow]

Perhaps we hear more about efforts to improve bolt accuracy because most folks who want the highest degree od accuracy such as competitive shooting, start with a bolt.
  Those who choose a big game rifle in lever, auto, slide even cylinder..have most often chosen their action for other reasons, quick repeat shots, nostalgia, shorter action, handling etc. with MOA accuracy not being the #1 criteria, so they are content with off the shelf performance..

[SHOOTALL]

Before you sight it in, take it apart, and clean and oil it.
The reassemble it.  and sight it in.  The rifle will be zeroed for the way you put the rifle togoether and how tight you make the screws. 
The next time you tear the gun  apart for a full cleaning you will put it back together again they same way.

Now that's a though. I like it.

or invest in a torque wrench and reassemble the gun the same each time. OR just get a SS action  / syn stock and don't worry about it.

[flmason]

Before you sight it in, take it apart, and clean and oil it.
The reassemble it.  and sight it in.  The rifle will be zeroed for the way you put the rifle togoether and how tight you make the screws. 
The next time you tear the gun  apart for a full cleaning you will put it back together again they same way.

Now that's a though. I like it.

or invest in a torque wrench and reassemble the gun the same each time. OR just get a SS action  / syn stock and don't worry about it.

Well, I guess a torgue wrench is a must here just judging by the posts.

I went with an M77 Hawkeye All Weather. So it is SS and plastic.

I think Savage has the right idea here. Free floated and a metal bed. For me, I just thought I wanted CRF, or I'd have gone with the 116.

I will say this, compared to military .30 cal rifles, it's got the most pencil thin whippy barrel by the time you get to the muzzle... was  a little disappointed with that. (Ordered it sight unseen, just trusting my personal history with Ruger.)

I have a feeling, because of the lightness of construction, it may be the last sporter I ever buy too... Don't have one handy ot compare to, but I think the Savage was a little heavier in construction, if not overall weight.

[wareagleguy]

The story is bolt actions sell 10 to 1 to other actions.  That is it. Period.

[mechanic]

If you have access to, or are around a cutting torch some time, take a piece of round stock, say 1/2" or so, and clamp one end to a welding table.  Hold the other end loosely in your hand, and just "wave" the torch over a spot on the rod.  It will move far more than you expect.
 
Now picture a rifle barrel, that is not absolutely uniform, (they never are), that will have "hot spots" in it when shot.  When you shoot that rifle, it will move ever so slightly as it heats up.  Sometimes you can correct this with floating, sometimes with bedding, and sometimes not at all.
 
Most rifles we buy off the rack are hunting guns, and are very suitable for such as is.  If you want 1/4" moa accuracy, you will have to either get very lucky, or work at it a bit.
 
Of all the rifles I've bought off the rack that were most accurate, I would list #1 my Savage Axis, #2 my Handi Sportster in 17hmr, and #3 my Handi 45-70.  All I've done to either is some trigger work.  All are sub moa, and plenty good for my kind of hunting.
 
Ben

[flmason]

The story is bolt actions sell 10 to 1 to other actions.  That is it. Period.

I guess for hunting that makes sense.

But I have to believe that the moment you throw "self defense against armed humans" into the equation, something that has a little more rapid firepower becomes desirable. Especially since semi-auto is the current civilian tool for such things and select fire for the military. But I guess that's a little off topic.

Are the numbers really that extreme. I keep reading that the Winchester 94 and Marlin 336 are the top selling sporting rifles "of all time" or some such.

But I have to wonder if they were counting all the repurposed milsurps... after all there's what, about 12 million 94's and 336's total... but 37 million Mosins alone.

[SHOOTALL]

 That is a good point the tool should match the use. So lets review some facts. Long term with a lot of use any weapon type will wear some wear out. Lets stay strictly civilian and omit the military as they often have there weapons rebuilt and more often that not have repair personal with them or close by. The lever gun while fast is mostly a short range weapon , under 200 yards. Also they are not as strong as a bolt gun. The same can be said for a pump. The auto is great in a fire fight if ammo is no concern but on a long haul with limited ammo is it better ? So many will find that all other action types have their strong point and nitch the bolt gun will in most cases weather abuse better, last longer, is stronger and in most cases more accurate and will hold it's accuracy longer. Mention was made of heft or weight , most hunting guns are carried much more than shot. BUT there are sporting guns with thicker barrels. As for thin barrels , I have a 2506 that is the most accurate gun I have it was more accurate than a Sendero I had . Both were 700's . Then there is the XP-100 it was the most accurate gun I have owned. It's barrel could best be described as a buggy whip. When you compare barrels you must consider the steel used as some thick barrels will bend before a thin one depending on metal used in each. It also effects how many rounds can be fired before accuracy goes the poor.
 So long term with limited supply the bolt gum may be the best. The owner will need to use his head and stay out of fights or engage from long distance to his advantage.

[mcwoodduck]

That is a good point the tool should match the use. So lets review some facts. Long term with a lot of use any weapon type will wear some wear out. Lets stay strictly civilian and omit the military as they often have there weapons rebuilt and more often that not have repair personal with them or close by. The lever gun while fast is mostly a short range weapon , under 200 yards. Also they are not as strong as a bolt gun. The same can be said for a pump. The auto is great in a fire fight if ammo is no concern but on a long haul with limited ammo is it better ? So many will find that all other action types have their strong point and nitch the bolt gun will in most cases weather abuse better, last longer, is stronger and in most cases more accurate and will hold it's accuracy longer. Mention was made of heft or weight , most hunting guns are carried much more than shot. BUT there are sporting guns with thicker barrels. As for thin barrels , I have a 2506 that is the most accurate gun I have it was more accurate than a Sendero I had . Both were 700's . Then there is the XP-100 it was the most accurate gun I have owned. It's barrel could best be described as a buggy whip. When you compare barrels you must consider the steel used as some thick barrels will bend before a thin one depending on metal used in each. It also effects how many rounds can be fired before accuracy goes the poor.
 So long term with limited supply the bolt gum may be the best. The owner will need to use his head and stay out of fights or engage from long distance to his advantage.

The Afganis used hand made Enfields in 303 brit to kill a lot of Russians.  The 303 adn the Enfields were able to shoot longer than the russian AK rounds and they would just get about 300 yards off and shoot Russians.  While they could not accuratly return fire.
The bolt action was the standard military arm for a number of reasons.  It is strong, accurate, and reliable.  With few moving parts to break. If it is a Militery action or a sporting action, either cna be used for hunting or self defense.  And unlike the Semi or auto versions of military the military bolts and sporting bolts can take any game while the military guns are pushing the boundries of the intermediate rounds.  And OK the M1 Garand, M1A, and the AR 10 are the three that breaks the rule. 

[SHOOTALL]

That is a good point the tool should match the use. So lets review some facts. Long term with a lot of use any weapon type will wear some wear out. Lets stay strictly civilian and omit the military as they often have there weapons rebuilt and more often that not have repair personal with them or close by. The lever gun while fast is mostly a short range weapon , under 200 yards. Also they are not as strong as a bolt gun. The same can be said for a pump. The auto is great in a fire fight if ammo is no concern but on a long haul with limited ammo is it better ? So many will find that all other action types have their strong point and nitch the bolt gun will in most cases weather abuse better, last longer, is stronger and in most cases more accurate and will hold it's accuracy longer. Mention was made of heft or weight , most hunting guns are carried much more than shot. BUT there are sporting guns with thicker barrels. As for thin barrels , I have a 2506 that is the most accurate gun I have it was more accurate than a Sendero I had . Both were 700's . Then there is the XP-100 it was the most accurate gun I have owned. It's barrel could best be described as a buggy whip. When you compare barrels you must consider the steel used as some thick barrels will bend before a thin one depending on metal used in each. It also effects how many rounds can be fired before accuracy goes the poor.
 So long term with limited supply the bolt gum may be the best. The owner will need to use his head and stay out of fights or engage from long distance to his advantage.

The Afganis used hand made Enfields in 303 brit to kill a lot of Russians.  The 303 adn the Enfields were able to shoot longer than the russian AK rounds and they would just get about 300 yards off and shoot Russians.  While they could not accuratly return fire.
The bolt action was the standard military arm for a number of reasons.  It is strong, accurate, and reliable.  With few moving parts to break. If it is a Militery action or a sporting action, either cna be used for hunting or self defense.  And unlike the Semi or auto versions of military the military bolts and sporting bolts can take any game while the military guns are pushing the boundries of the intermediate rounds.  And OK the M1 Garand, M1A, and the AR 10 are the three that breaks the rule.

MAYBE < MAYBE NOT KEEP IN MIND THE AMMO USED IN THOSE GUNS HAVE TO BE OF CORRECT MANFACTURE OR THEY MAY NOT ALLOW THE ACTION TO FUNCTION>

[mcwoodduck]

Like any repeater the ctg need to fit in the magazine.
The power needs to be suifficient to power the action.  I have a few rounds that make my M1 a strait pull bolt action. but they shoot.
And after I hit post I remembered a bunch of other Military Semi Autos that fire a Full power round
One is that strange Sweedish action that Egypt copied, the Soviet Tokarov and the other version of it. as well as the German Mauser Semi Auto as well as the Paratrooper rifle.  And the post war French design that I do not like.  But I think the first batch I named are some of the most accurate.

[SHOOTALL]

why lug around a rifle that weights twice as much ? better to tote more water and food .

[mcwoodduck]

But my AR is 8 pounds and my Garand is 9 pounds. 
With water at 8 pounds a gallon going from a garand to an AR will only give you a pint of water (pints a pound the world around)
ammo is a different story.  yes you can carry 210 rounds of standard 55 grain 223 in 7 -30 round mangs for the weight of 88 Rounds of 150 grain 30-06 in emboc clips. 
In Richmond I would rather have my ar than my M1, but I can think a few places where a one of my hunting bolts would be more usedful in a survival situation. 

[SHOOTALL]

In Richmond I'd rather have the M1-A Socom  . Or a 12 ga Remington mag with magazine ext.