Author Topic: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.  (Read 1604 times)

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Offline powderman

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http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...,5831477.story


In wake of Dorner shootout, questions over use of 'the burner'


The day's light was fading when the SWAT officers decided they could wait no longer for Christopher Dorner to surrender.

Dorner, the fired Los Angeles cop suspected of killing four people in a campaign of revenge, had been holed up in a cabin near Big Bear Lake for hours, trading gunfire with San Bernardino County sheriff's deputies. Repeated calls over a loudspeaker for him to surrender went ignored. Attempts to flush him out with tear gas led nowhere.

Wanting to end the standoff before nightfall, members of the sheriff's SWAT unit enacted a plan they had devised for a final assault on the cabin, according to law enforcement sources. An officer drove a demolition vehicle up to the building and methodically tore down most of its walls, the sources said.

With the cabin's interior exposed, the officer got on the radio to others awaiting his order. "We're going to go forward with the plan, with the burner," the unidentified officer said, according to a recording of police radio transmissions reviewed by The Times.

"The burner" was shorthand for a grenade-like canister containing a more powerful type of tear gas than had been used earlier. Police use the nickname because of the intense heat the device gives off, which often causes a fire.

"Seven burners deployed," another officer responded several seconds later, according to the transmission which has circulated widely among law enforcement officials. "And we have a fire."

Within minutes the cabin was fully engulfed in flames, ending a dramatic manhunt that captivated the nation.

The SWAT radio transmission, in addition to the comments of at least one officer who earlier in the gun battle could be heard by a TV reporter calling for the cabin to be burned down, have raised questions as to whether authorities intended to end the standoff by setting the structure on fire. San Bernardino County Sheriff John McMahon at a Wednesday press conference adamantly denied that was the intent. But the department on Thursday declined to answer further questions about the standoff.

Multiple sources, who were at the scene and asked that their names not be used because they were not authorized to discuss the case, said the decision to use the incendiary gas canisters came amid mounting concern that time and options were running out.

Dorner, they said, had not communicated with police at any point during the siege and had continued to fire off rounds at them with high-caliber weapons. "Any time they moved, this guy was shooting," one source said. Bringing large floodlights into the area was deemed too dangerous and police worried Dorner might have night-vision goggles that would soon give him an advantage.

When they eventually moved in with the demolition vehicle and began to get glimpses into the cabin as the walls were torn down, Dorner's whereabouts and condition were unknown. On the radio transmission, one officer describes seeing blood splattered inside the cabin and then another reports hearing a single gunshot being fired, raising the possibility that Dorner may have killed himself before the fire engulfed the cabin.

On Thursday, the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department announced dental records had confirmed what had been widely assumed since the showdown — that the charred body found in the cabin rubble was Dorner's. The test results brought to a definitive close the epic manhunt for Dorner, 33, who police say killed a deputy during the cabin shootout, a Riverside police officer and an Irvine couple as part of a plot to retaliate against the Los Angeles Police Department for firing him in 2009.

Samuel Walker, emeritus professor of criminal justice at the University of Nebraska Omaha, was critical of the decision to use the "burner" tear gas canisters.

"It's true, he was firing at them. But he was cornered. He was trapped. At that point, there was no rush in the sense that he was barricaded. The standard rules on barricade situations are that you can wait the person out," Walker said. "To use a known incendiary device raises some very serious questions in my mind."


[Standard rules? Really? I got your standard rules right here, a-hole. You are living proof that "those who can, do--those who can't, teach."]


Other law enforcement experts interviewed by The Times, however, said the move was justified. Even though SWAT officers were certain to have known a fire was a strong possibility, the use of the gas was reasonable in the face of the deadly threat Dorner presented, they said. Allowing the standoff to carry on into the night, they emphasized, would have added an unpredictable element to the drama that officials were smart to avoid.

"What difference does it make if one of the officers puts a … round in his head, drives the armored vehicle over his body when they are knocking the building down, or he dies in a conflagration?" said David Klinger, a use-of-force expert at the University of Missouri at St. Louis and a former LAPD officer. "If he is trying to surrender you can't do any of those things … But if he is actively trying to murder people, there's no doubt that deadly force is appropriate and it doesn't matter what method is used to deliver it."

Geoffery Alpert, a professor at the University of South Carolina who also specializes in police tactics, agreed.

"I don't understand what the big deal is," Alpert said. "This man had already shot two officers and was suspected of murdering other people. He wasn't responding in a rational manner. The actions you take have to remove the threat and if it requires extreme measures, then so be it." 
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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Offline Shu

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2013, 12:50:10 PM »
Once he started killing the rank and file he was not going to survive a capture.
 
 

Offline -Shaggy-

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2013, 01:32:41 PM »
He never intended to be captured.

Offline Jim, West PA

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2013, 03:13:51 PM »
I say good for them. They proceeded with extreem predjudice in a situation that clearly warranted it. It's about time someone did.
 Dorner was not an " alledged" anything. He did what he did and he got what he deserved.
At birth, God bestowed upon each and everyone of us the greatest responsibility there is....FREE WILL.

Offline JPShelton

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2013, 03:26:23 PM »
I hate to be a stickler for accuracy, but "LA cops" didn't intentionally use burner grenades on Dorner.  The San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department did.
Kudos where kudos are due, and all of that....
JP

Offline powderman

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2013, 04:09:26 PM »
I hate to be a stickler for accuracy, but "LA cops" didn't intentionally use burner grenades on Dorner.  The San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department did.
Kudos where kudos are due, and all of that....
JP

 
Thank you Sir, I stand corrected. POWDERMAN.  ;D ;D
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline mechanic

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2013, 04:13:35 PM »
Appropriate use here...under darkness he might have slipped away and murdered innocents to escape......not appropriate at Waco when used there.
 
Ben
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Offline Ranger99

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2013, 04:19:13 PM »
murderer and criminal- no doubt
loose canon and crazed- crystal clear


deserving of being burned alive pretty
much intentionally?


nobody deserves that, and i mean nobody.


they wanted him dead for sure. ok
start pouring on the fire power and chop up
the house around him.
18 MINUTES.  . . . . . .

Offline mcbammer

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2013, 04:19:39 PM »
If  that  had  been  my  cabin , I  would  be  highly  pi$$ED .

Offline mechanic

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2013, 03:56:22 AM »
I wonder if normal home owner's insurance will pay for the cabin, or if it's considered and act of war or terrorism?
 
Ben
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Offline kennyd

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2013, 04:04:12 AM »
It is pretty much a given that you will not go to trial if you kill a cop.  The last guy I can remember being captured hanged himself while being kept in a non involved jail; you can draw your own conclusions.  This kind of BS leaves no winners.
just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they are not watching you

Offline mcbammer

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2013, 04:20:14 AM »
I wonder if normal home owner's insurance will pay for the cabin, or if it's considered and act of war or terrorism?
 
Ben
Good  ? ,  Deliberate  arson  nots covered  last  time  I  looked.  I  dont  know  if  law  enforcement  carries  insurance  for  damages.

Offline Dee

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2013, 06:34:12 AM »
It is pretty much a given that you will not go to trial if you kill a cop.  The last guy I can remember being captured hanged himself while being kept in a non involved jail; you can draw your own conclusions.  This kind of BS leaves no winners.

Well there certainly are no winners, that's for sure. However, I know of numerous cases where some one killed a cop, and ALL are still on death row years, and years later. Some of those cops killed were friends of mine. My own conclusion is, you don't know what your talkin about.
Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.

Offline FPH

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2013, 06:36:48 AM »
We have had  recent Cop killings here (some very brutal)  and the perps are all still kicking.

Offline wganz

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2013, 07:20:05 AM »
Until he either confessed or was convicted in a court of law, he was still innocent. At least that was the way it was in the America I grew up in.  :(

I am still waiting on the pdf of the police training or tactics document where using sufficient CS grenades to start the 'BURN plan' is a recognized tactic. Even Ray Charles could have seen the result of that. The police are part of the executive branch of the government. They're don't get to decide on what the law is going to be, decide who is guilty, and summarily execute those they deem as being beyond the pale. If they were afraid he would slip away at night, they were not using the NVG that they were issued or the FLIR from the overhead drones. So that is a bogus and male bovine feces position. It was going to -15F that night and they knew his cold weather gear had burned up in his truck. They knew he wouldn't have gotten far even if he did make a run for it. And that would have been preferable so that he was out in the open vs. turning a taxpayer's house into a sieve.

This is not my America. Not the one that I signed up to serve and protect for 6 years.

Offline flintlock

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2013, 07:33:51 AM »
He got what he deserved!!

Offline Brett

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2013, 07:58:45 AM »
Aside from being a murderer he was also a whistle blower who could have caused a lot of bad press for the LAPD.  That in my opinion is what got him killed.   There was no way he was going to live to see a trial. 

Come on folks he was pinned down in a cabin in -15o temps outside.   They could have just cut the power to the cabin and waited him out. 

They wanted him dead one way or another.   They were so hot to off Dorner that they were shooting up pick up trucks that sort of, kind of looked like his for crying out load. 

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Offline FPH

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2013, 08:03:04 AM »
Audio of Burn him out.....burn the mother F#$&@! out do not sound good. Cooler heads should have prevailed.

Offline FPH

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2013, 08:15:00 AM »
It is possible that Dorner set fire to the cabin and then ate a bullet.  Time will tell hopefully.

Offline Brett

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2013, 08:25:12 AM »
It is possible that Dorner set fire to the cabin and then ate a bullet.  Time will tell hopefully.

Of course the authorities are already claiming that he shot himself (must have been while he was cleaning his weapon) what did you expect.  The cops only fired a few "warning shots" don't you know? Just watch the video if you don't believe me.   I'm sure they really intended to take him alive so that he could stand trail.

Don't think for a minute I;m on Dorner's side... he was a murderous creep but he still deserved a fair trial. 
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Offline -Shaggy-

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2013, 09:08:26 AM »
He never intended to be captured.
.
Once trapped and srrounded, I guess all the long negogiation tactics to get him to come in failed..... ??? ::) ???
.
.
..TM7

Once trapped and surrounded, I guess they believed what he wrote about not coming out of this alive.... :o

Offline Dee

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2013, 09:53:29 AM »
I would've enjoyed some of you "realists" here give'in this knucklehead a fair trial while he was shootin at ya. You can read his crazy manifesto of never being taken alive, you can read his admission of killin an innocent unarmed young girl, and her boyfriend, because of who her daddy was, and somehow come to the conclusion that he got screwed durin this whole fiasco, THAT HE STARTED. That really says a lot to me, about where some folks' head is.
This guy did what he said he was gonna do, and it ended like he said it was gonna end. If you had been there, (and you weren't) you would have done the same damn thing the did, if he was shootin at you, or else you would have hid and done nothin, which is more likely.
Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.

Offline wganz

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2013, 03:47:41 PM »
I would've enjoyed some of you "realists" here give'in this knucklehead a fair trial while he was shootin at ya. You can read his crazy manifesto of never being taken alive, you can read his admission of killing an innocent unarmed young girl, and her boyfriend, because of who her daddy was, and somehow come to the conclusion that he got screwed during this whole fiasco, THAT HE STARTED. That really says a lot to me, about where some folks' head is.
This guy did what he said he was gonna do, and it ended like he said it was gonna end. If you had been there, (and you weren't) you would have done the same damn thing the did, if he was shootin at you, or else you would have hid and done nothing, which is more likely.
I've read his manifesto. I've read reports of how he was recycled through the police academy to pass. Non sequitur.

Again, in the escalation of force, please give me a citation that burning down a house is an acceptable tactic. Please do a reply with quote where anyone said that the police should have pampered him or condoned his actions. Now, the sheriff's office gave him what he could not have otherwise gotten which is legitimacy to his claims with his martyrdom by fire.  I'm more concerned with the harm done to the concept of due process in these last days of the Republic than I do with him dying.

Offline Dee

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2013, 04:57:08 PM »
Please give a citation that says they intentionally burned the house down. I would be interested in you explaining how YOU would have made the arrest.
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Offline williamlayton

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2013, 09:40:56 PM »
First it was not LAPD who apprehended this man.
I would have burned him out also---it is the sane approach.
This was not a game and they knew what would happen if they tried to take him.
This is one of those situations that got out of hand---a man made a decision that he knew he would have to die with.
It's over.
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Offline jhm

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2013, 02:04:31 AM »
     I am not a fan of long term death row vacations, I am a firm believer in the penalty of if you commit a crime that required a sentance longer that 5 yrs. then it should be a death penalty, if you or your lawyer cant get it over rulled in 5 yrs. you die plain and simple.  And dont start with all the crap that some one who was inocient might be punished, believe it or not thay will ALL tell you that they were framed.  Jim

Offline coyotejoe

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2013, 04:39:38 AM »
Because that effort failed and he felt he had not been well represented.
The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.

Offline coyotejoe

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2013, 04:50:24 AM »
Please give a citation that says they intentionally burned the house down. I would be interested in you explaining how YOU would have made the arrest.
Well the quotes of "going ahead with the burner plan" and reply of "seven burners deployed" makes it pretty clear that the fire was intentional, but also there are warning labels on the grenades which caution "not to be used in confined space or where there is danger of fire". We may consider the fire justified or not but it clearly was intentional. Those grenades are for use in crown control on city streets where they can't cause a fire and the intense heat make is impossible for one of the crowd to pick it up and throw it back. They also generate a great deal more gas than the "cool" grenades which are intended for indoor use. But I'm sure you already knew that.
The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.

Offline ChungDoQuan

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2013, 04:54:09 AM »
What difference does it make? He shot himself in the head.
If you give up, THEY don't have to win.

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Offline Dee

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Re: LA cops intentionally used commonly called BURNER grenades on Dorner.
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2013, 05:32:29 AM »
Please give a citation that says they intentionally burned the house down. I would be interested in you explaining how YOU would have made the arrest.
Well the quotes of "going ahead with the burner plan" and reply of "seven burners deployed" makes it pretty clear that the fire was intentional, but also there are warning labels on the grenades which caution "not to be used in confined space or where there is danger of fire". We may consider the fire justified or not but it clearly was intentional. Those grenades are for use in crown control on city streets where they can't cause a fire and the intense heat make is impossible for one of the crowd to pick it up and throw it back. They also generate a great deal more gas than the "cool" grenades which are intended for indoor use. But I'm sure you already knew that.

LOL! Yes, coyote, I am not only aware of it, I have personally USED BOTH, and not only understand HOW they work, but WHAT they are used for, and HOW, and WHEN they should be used.
There are also warning labels on the boxes that guns come in that say: Do not point gun at anything you do not want destroyed. Guess ole Dorner didn't read the warning labels either.
By the way coyote. How many of those "burner grenades" have you used in your lifetime. A bunch I guess?
Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.