Author Topic: The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1  (Read 1856 times)

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Offline Dresden

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The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1
« on: February 11, 2013, 03:11:03 AM »
I am a student of WW1 Trench Artillery, when the German army had to dig in after failing the open war, a need developed for a weapon to smash barbed wire in front of trenches before an attack.
The Germans had a Krupp mortar from 1913, the British adapted it, the French developed similar mortars, then the Germans introduced several Minnenwerfers, or Mine Throwers.
The common attributes were a light barrel, a powder chamber, and simple base plate and direction control.
The projectiles were cylinders filled with explosives and time fuzed, bores ran from 3 to 17 inches.
Attached is a drawing of a typical Mortar, it happens to be a breech loader, the breech block is held in with a pin
and has a powder chamber.( A German Cotter breech)
 

Offline steelcharge

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Re: The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2013, 05:22:16 AM »
Very true, even old bronze pieces were taken back into use, here's link to a french forum with plenty of photos of french soldiers using old bronze mortars in the trenches, the mortars and their ammunition too:

http://lagrandeguerre.cultureforum.net/t15661-mortier-louis-philippe-bombe-a-cornes

Offline RocklockI

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Re: The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2013, 05:48:17 AM »
Hi Dresden ,we have one of those in my moms home town of Ault Co. we drive right by it to go shoot . Maybe not identical but very close . I could stop and take pics next time we go out if you like .
 
Steelcharge, those are some amazing photos and the projectiles are as wierd as I've seen . The skys the limit . 
Almost remindes me of some one here who wanted to shoot door knobs out of his cannon ??? .
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline KABAR2

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Re: The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2013, 06:59:53 AM »
Im memory serves ... I seem to remember seeing photo's of  large artillery shells that had been converted into trench mortars ..... I'll see if I can find the photo's....
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

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Offline Dresden

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Re: The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2013, 08:16:00 AM »
The Artillery shell mortars were unique, they fired a cylinder wrapped with heavy wire, actually a rod
I will post some pics.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2013, 09:35:47 AM »
Dresden,
Thanks for opening this topic. Other than as an igniter, you're in all probability right, that WW I was the last time any western power used black powder for artillery.
Here are a few pics of the French bronze 150mm Model of 1838 mortar that can be seen in the site that steelcharge posted. The photos were taken by Luc Malchair at the Citadel of Verdun (the third pic shows a reproduction barrel and bed).











RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2013, 09:54:57 AM »
    Dresden,   Mike and I are so glad you started this thread.  We have been collecting photos of black powder mortars and cannon that were used in the Great War for about 5 years now, but didn't know quite how to introduce this subject.  Your thread title perfectly describes this interesting information and it has surprised us how large a body of knowledge exists on this topic.  The photos below were collected from various sites on the internet in the past using the key word search of "De Bange Mortars and Cannon WWI"


Tracy and Mike


This is the photo that caught our attention.  It's a 220mm (8.66") De Bange Mortar M1881 being used during the Argonne Campaign.





This De Bange 155mm gun M1887 is seen here in action.  Note the smoke jet from the vent through the spindle, central to the mushroom head.





This large ML 220mm Long Mortar, we believe, is a precursor to the De Bange Mortar M1881.  Upper Breech markings are "Oruz A Nantes 1874" and on the lower breech you can see "LLL 1846" and on the lower right of the bed you can see "B  1885   C.O. 22.  N1  R" The length and shape is very similar to the BL 220mm 1881 De Bange.





A crew prepares the 220mm mortar for a fire mission.




Pointing and preparing to fire.





Some shells await loading into the 220mm mortar.





A look at the 220 mm  De Bange breech.





They sure did like this model.





A diagram of the 220mm.





Some specifications.

Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline cannonmn

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Re: The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2013, 12:29:50 PM »
Robo-translation of a webpage linked above:
Hi all,

When the First World War became bogged down in the trenches, although the French were forced to realize that their opponents were able to take lessons THe recent conflicts, including the Russo-Japanese War.
The Germans had developed a specialized siege artillery, high capacity and explosive shot on goal near vertical, the fire which the French could hardly reply with inadequate makeshift and improvised.
From December 1914, the French made therefore appeal to all that could make any vertical shooting and realized crafts such as mortar or Cellérier trench crossbow, or the mine thrower Gatard. They put in service as long outdated equipment and forgotten the deepest arsenals and fortifications stocks. This was notably the case of mortars 15 cm model 1838, bronze, and to a lesser extent
mortars 22 cm, 27 cm and 32 cm.
Smooth the mortar 15 cm Model 1838 was a muzzle brass, caliber of 151.3 mm, core very short muzzle-loading and an average weight of 70 kilos. It was designed to run primarily spherical shells loaded with black powder.
Relatively easy to transport and set battery, it could make a valuable service in the trenches.
The propellant charge, black powder cartridge in paper is modulated according to the shooting angle and distance of the target from 15 grams (range: 30 meters at 45 ° C) to 140 grams (600 meters in 45 °).
Several types of projectiles were admitted
• - spherical shell of 15 cm, a weight of 7.56 pounds in order to fire, armed with rocket wood # 3 and trimmed 300 grams of black powder.
• A device Harvest topped four rounds of 12 or 13 cm 4 grenades each weighing 1162 grams ..
Also include memory boxes bales, abandoned around 1880 because pulling vertically inert projectiles.
Regarding projectiles launched by the 15 cm mortar model 1938 in
the First World War, it has existed spherical projectiles from the nineteenth century, cylindrical cast iron and wooden cylindrical, metal and wire.
Wooden projectiles:
These projectiles were more or less identified as craft generic Nicole bombs.
It was stated that each major unit as its bombs realized she heard. We therefore present below the bomb Nicole Manual, wood, sheet metal and wire.
Bomb Nicole was constructed from two circular plates, wooden, separated by a cylindrical thin sheet containing a charge of Cheddite cartridges.
The priming was performed by a lock side, ignited by the propellant gases and terminating in a detonator. There were bombs Nicole 5 kilos and 10 kilos. Litters were irregular, and keeping track pretty random. Faute de mieux, however these materials remained in service until May 1915.
Projectiles cylindriues:
This model has been met with versions of different heights or covers, but of the same order. The lid was held in place by three bolts 14. The truncated base passed the internal profile of the powder chamber of the mortar, but the wind was to remain important.
The front of the shot exceeded the previous installment of the mortar tube, allowing this specific binding cover three protruding ears and three bolts.
A variant of this projectile had received a cover plate in a recess in which were set two igniters to pull the same principle as the projectile Gatard.
Another bullet cast iron cylinder, truncated based internally reinforced by ribs, shorter than the previous one, but molded integrally with a reinforced bottom four internal ribs. A coupling screw with hexagon in the eye allowed the establishment of the fuse concutante after loading explosive. It has also been possible without fitting to receive a rocket type Gatard.
The body was carried to the diameter of 147 mm, but leaving two spots. Turned, they gave two belts guiding and sealing to the size of 149 mm. The projectile was almost completely inserted into the soul of the mortar flush with the front edge only, allowing to remove the pin.
In another version, the belt was replaced by former prominent longitudinal lines, which avoided the beating of the projectile in the bore while reducing wear and tear.
These projectiles were cast achieved Semi-craft on the rear of the front Lorraine. To our knowledge, we do not discover anywhere else.
They were loaded with explosive poor quality (the German recovered lost was even observed in one of them) and initiated by a simple rocket, brass, fusing time fixed by turning the device initially concutant shot. In 1987, a delay of 16 seconds was recorded.
The rocket through pin removed only at the time of the shooting.
Nowadays, such a projectile has a certain risk if the pin immobilizing the concuteur does not fulfill its function.
Indeed, the safety spring, already very low in 1915, is currently still heavily damaged or completely destroyed by corrosion due to bimetallism. The rocket can operate by simply turning or drop of the machine.
The primer consisted of a brass sleeve and cardboard, a typical hunting cartridge 16 gauge. It initiated a lock itself provided with a detonator placed in a cardboard box melinite relay.
Upon his release in 1915, the 15 cm mortar model 1838 could be drawn:
• - Former spherical shells loaded with black powder.
• - spherical shells similar to the previous, but loaded with explosive. These shots were initiated by a rocket fitted with a detonator timber opening into a detonation relay brass jacket itself forcibly inserted into the eye of the projectile.
• - device Combine and its share of munitions ignited by the propellant.

Offline Dresden

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Re: The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2013, 03:36:01 PM »
Crapouillot is French for Little Toad, the Gunners thought the mortars looked like Toads.
I am posting their badges, they were considered very brave Gunners because they were so close to the enemy.


I am a mortar lover and have built/sold several in the past, all castings in semi steel. The WW1 stuff amazes me
especially the trench artillery and rifle grenades. I am glad I am not alone in my interests.


Look here to see Belgian gunners fire a gun with a DeBang breech with carrier ring http://archive.org/details/gov.archives.arc.89308




Offline Dresden

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Re: The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2013, 03:46:16 PM »
I forgot to include the pic of the French 58 Nr1, Nr 1-a, &Nr2 that fired the big winged bombs shown in the toads mouth. These guns were fired with a smokeless powder, but I have movies of them fired with a fuse.
















Offline Frank46

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Re: The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2013, 05:26:49 PM »
I looked at the French site and especially the last pic. With the exception of the soldier with the steel helmet the setting could have very well been in the civil War. Frank

Offline cannonmn

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Re: The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2013, 07:05:48 PM »
The 15cm M1838 mortars are interesting.  There's one here with a nice engraved Louis Philippe cypher on the breech, cast at Douay in 1846.  I have no idea where it had served but the muzzle is now somewhat oval, and the trunnions are bent slightly forward from recoil.   I can't find the photos at the moment.  Has a great turquoise patina too.  I think I posted pix here a few years ago.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2013, 02:00:49 AM »
Crapouillot is French for Little Toad, the Gunners thought the mortars looked like Toads.
I am posting their badges, they were considered very brave Gunners because they were so close to the enemy.

Dresden,
Some years ago I looked for information on the French term "crapouillot" as specifically relating to the bronze M 1838 mortar, and couldn't really come up with anything. There's no question that French WWI trench mortar troops used the word to designate the "mortier de 58 mm Type 2", but do you have any knowledge, or opinion on them also using it to denote the antique M 1838? I know that "Le CRAPOUILLOT" can be seen on the photo of the museum information placard that I posted, but there are a lot of things on museum placards that aren't necessarily so.
Thanks for posting the pic of that badge, the finned shell looks like a huge fly caught on the toad's tongue.



RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline KABAR2

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Re: The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2013, 06:35:24 AM »
The Artillery shell mortars were unique, they fired a cylinder wrapped with heavy wire, actually a rod
I will post some pics.
I have also seen photos of a large shell one with a threaded base... base was removed and shell was set point end down to form mortar body.....
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Dresden

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Re: The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2013, 04:31:20 PM »
I have always thought the model 1838 Mortar looked like a Toad, short with a big mouth.


I am sure that many shells of sorts  were fashioned into mortars in troop shops, the problem is ammo for them, a Army wide plan for the shops for one barrel size, ammo type and range charges makes more sense.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2013, 07:06:24 PM »
I could have sworn that I had a photo of a 150mm M1838 mortar on an original metal bed (don't remember if it was bronze or iron), but I can't find it.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2013, 08:44:36 PM »
Quote
I could have sworn that I had a photo of a 150mm M1838 mortar on an original
metal bed (don't remember if it was bronze or iron), but I can't find it.
I haven't heard of an all-metal bed for the M1838, all the info, photos etc. I've seen show the same low  wooden bed with two iron (?) trunnion rests and four iron rings for transportation using handspikes.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2013, 11:38:22 PM »
I might very well have switched mortar barrels in my memory. The bed I'm thinking of had metal cheeks and wood transoms, and I believe that the photo was taken at Les Invalides. What is the source of the information that you mentioned?
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline The Jeff

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Re: The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2013, 11:05:51 AM »
Dresden,
Thanks for opening this topic. Other than as an igniter, you're in all probability right, that WW I was the last time any western power used black powder for artillery.
Here are a few pics of the French bronze 150mm Model of 1838 mortar that can be seen in the site that steelcharge posted. The photos were taken by Luc Malchair at the Citadel of Verdun (the third pic shows a reproduction barrel and bed).




I really like the shape of this mortar so I found a little more about it. The best page I could find is here, which contains an excellent pdf with drawings of the barrel and bed. I had the best luck searching for "Mortier de 15 cm Mle 1838"

Offline bluelake

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Re: The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2013, 12:03:13 PM »
One interesting story I remember reading many years ago was the Finnish "Hyppy Heikki" (Jumping Henry), which was an old black powder cannon that Finnish troops during WWII had fun taunting Russians with. 
 
 
 

Offline steelcharge

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Re: The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2013, 12:18:07 PM »
One interesting story I remember reading many years ago was the Finnish "Hyppy Heikki" (Jumping Henry), which was an old black powder cannon that Finnish troops during WWII had fun taunting Russians with.

"Hyppy-Heikki" was a nickname for all the "rigid carriage" (no recoil control) guns which were used. Those were mostly old French 90mm & 150mm breechloading De Bange guns and some old Russian Krupp-type guns.
There was a joke about these guns that you needed two observers when using these guns, one to see where the shell went and another to see where the gun went.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2013, 12:42:21 PM »
Dresden,
Thanks for opening this topic. Other than as an igniter, you're in all probability right, that WW I was the last time any western power used black powder for artillery.
Here are a few pics of the French bronze 150mm Model of 1838 mortar that can be seen in the site that steelcharge posted. The photos were taken by Luc Malchair at the Citadel of Verdun (the third pic shows a reproduction barrel and bed).




I really like the shape of this mortar so I found a little more about it. The best page I could find is here, which contains an excellent pdf with drawings of the barrel and bed. I had the best luck searching for "Mortier de 15 cm Mle 1838"

Thanks Jeff. I've been meaning to search, but I just didn't get to it. The wood bed and metal hardware is the same as that used in WWI.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline a4beltfed2000

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Re: The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2013, 01:51:34 PM »
found some interresting pics
H&R/NEF 10, 12,16 20 28 ,410 .243 45 357 45lc. 1919a4, uzi, sten mK 2,3,5 M2HB, 1917a1, ak74(2) amd 65, RPK (2) 11 aks and 50 other guns....

Offline a4beltfed2000

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Re: The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2013, 01:56:21 PM »
I find ww1 rather interresting myself
H&R/NEF 10, 12,16 20 28 ,410 .243 45 357 45lc. 1919a4, uzi, sten mK 2,3,5 M2HB, 1917a1, ak74(2) amd 65, RPK (2) 11 aks and 50 other guns....

Offline Dresden

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Re: The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2013, 04:24:02 PM »
Here is a print showing the black tubed mortar Suippes minen D

Offline a4beltfed2000

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Re: The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2013, 11:49:32 AM »
can you tell me how big this one is hieght and width, and what did it weigh?
H&R/NEF 10, 12,16 20 28 ,410 .243 45 357 45lc. 1919a4, uzi, sten mK 2,3,5 M2HB, 1917a1, ak74(2) amd 65, RPK (2) 11 aks and 50 other guns....

Offline cannonmn

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Re: The last Era of Blackpowder Mortars is WW1
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2013, 03:09:08 PM »
The pix above were very interesting but none showed much in the way of the markings found on the  15cm mortars.  So,










This one was cast in Douai on 11 July 1846.  The royal cypher is that of emperor Louis Philippe.  The "M" is the initial of the director of the Douai Arsenal, or the regional Chief of Ordnance, can't recall which, but somewhere I have the list of all of them and their terms of service in the post.  That document was the end of my search for the meaning of the script letter "C" engraved on top of a French 12cm Mountain Howitzer M1828, where of course the "C" was for another officer who had held that post.  An Army Colonel normally held that position.