Author Topic: 17 Hornady Mach 2 (Read 2915 times)

SHW · « **on:** February 16, 2004, 10:54:22 AM »

I guess most everyone has heard about the new round that is coming out. A 22LR necked down with 17 v-max bullet at 2100 fps. My question is do you think it will be a success. Approx cost will be $5.50 a box. New guns will be availabe in August?

? Will it succeed??

stomp · « **Reply #1 on:** February 16, 2004, 02:13:28 PM »

SHW

Here we go again :roll: My local gun shop said he would have the guns way before he would have the aamo. It will be intersting to see what becomes of this :shock:

S.S. · « **Reply #2 on:** February 18, 2004, 04:04:43 AM »

sounds like the .17 Aguila.
(I think the bullet is around 20 grs. though)
I have seen field tests of this round already,
It gives up several hundred FPS to the .17 HMR
but is deadly accurate in a custom barrel.
I think High Standard has a Semi-Auto pistol
for it already.
This round should be in the Hyper-velocity .22 LR
realm but with a little flatter trajectory.
probably useful for the same range of game though.

44 Man · « **Reply #3 on:** February 18, 2004, 04:05:59 AM »

Aguilla (spelling?) advertised a .22 lr case necked down to .17 with a lead bullet two years ago, but it never hit the market. Looks to me like Hornady will be competeing with itself on this one. Which one will be with us in fifteen years and which will be obsolete? :idea:

SBF · « **Reply #4 on:** February 18, 2004, 04:32:00 AM »

According to other posts I've read on the net (take it FWIW) They claim there are several companies including Eley who are already gearing up for production of these rounds. I hear they don't want to get caught with their proverbial pants down like they did with the introduction of the 17 HMR.
That being said I think it'll do o.k. Just look at the craze the 17 HMR started. I think that , at first anyways, the 17LR will do o.k. Time will tell wether it will have the longevity of the "other" rimfires.

I might be tempted to get one, my moniker isn't SmallBoreFreak for nothing :-D

Graybeard · « **Reply #5 on:** February 18, 2004, 06:10:21 AM »

Looking at a photo of it sitting between a .22LR and a .17HRM it would appear to be using the CCI Stinger case rather than a standard .22LR case. It is my understanding that CCI is the one making the cases and loading most all of the .17HRM ammo regardless of the brand name on the box.

GB

S.S. · « **Reply #6 on:** February 19, 2004, 06:53:22 AM »

When it comes out I'll have to give it a try!
I don't think I have ever met a cartridge I
didn't like to shoot!
They are all fun no matter how small!!!
.12 or .14 HMR "Bullfrog Special"? Hmmmm!

XP1900 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 19, 2004, 08:13:21 AM »

I've been reading alot about this new round over at rimfirecentral. CCI is using the stinger case, Eley is using their 10x case. Eley will be making 8 million and plus another 8 million for Remington for the Aug release. So far I haven't seen how many CCI will make and how many they will make for Hornady. CCI will be using a black tipped VMax, Eley's will be blue, and Hornady's will be red. It is supposed to be flat shooting and very accurate. I think it was some one from Eley that said it will lift a honeydew melon off the ground at 75yds. There shouldn't be a shortage like there was with the HMR. Midsouth is already taken orders for it now, they are $5.23 for 50rds. Guns chambered in for this round will hit the shelves at the same time as the ammo in Aug.

bgjohn · « **Reply #8 on:** February 19, 2004, 09:26:48 AM »

I want a Ruger single six convertible in this with a 17 HMR cylinder extra.
JM

RimfireFreak · « **Reply #9 on:** March 19, 2004, 08:21:19 AM »

Quote from: bgjohn

I want a Ruger single six convertible in this with a 17 HMR cylinder extra.
JM

I'm with you on this one! :grin: :grin:

Lawdog · « **Reply #10 on:** March 19, 2004, 01:10:44 PM »

Not until the price comes down near .22 lr ammo. Starting to smell like another 5mm Remington to me. Lawdog

1911WB · « **Reply #11 on:** April 02, 2004, 05:00:22 AM »

According to articles in the latest Shooting Times & Guns & Ammo I've read Hornady has lined up several other ammo manufacturers like Federal, Eley, etc. in addition to themselves to produce the ammo for their newest creation, the .17 Mach 2 (a necked down .22 Stinger case), using the same Hornady .17 V-max bullet as the .17 HRM (Hornady will make different colored tips for the other manufacturers). Also, Browning, Taurus, Marlin, TC & others have prototype firearms ready & the accuracy in them in limited testing is outstanding. The velocity is better than .22 mag.- around 2100 fps. Very impressive! :-D

1stshot · « **Reply #12 on:** April 06, 2004, 05:07:53 PM »

I think a new barrel for my T/C in an 18" featherweight bbl sounds cool! Might turn out to be one hell of a fun small carbine round for some fun! but then......as most of us would agree that shooting anything is fun. For that matter i enjoy using the HILTI gun at work! :-D

Flash · « **Reply #13 on:** April 11, 2004, 01:56:28 AM »

The article in Shooting Times is impressive and I just might have to get one. From what I was told, guys have been doing this(necking down a 22 rf)for years in the handloading/wildcat circuit. Actually, I like the concept of a lighter bullet and if it's good accuracy, it's that much better. Iwouldn't be surprised if it steals the market place from the 22 RF. With most firearm dealers now being the department stores, especially in the larger cities and subberbs, a contract to sell these will now be nation wide. The 5mm relied on the mom & pop gunshops of the last century and now Wal-Mart will buy 100,000 at a time. A friend of mine recently told me that he read that Remington's production during 3 months out of the year, goes to the department and catalog stores. Then, the guns are shipped to wholesalers and suppliers. I look to see this round around for a long time to come.

Lawdog · « **Reply #14 on:** April 11, 2004, 09:18:07 AM »

Flash,

Quote

Iwouldn't be surprised if it steals the market place from the 22 RF.

I would be surprised and let me give you an example why. When we take the grandkids(all 4 of them) to the range for a day of shooting fun it is nothing to go thru 2,000 rounds(and more) of .22lr cartridges in a day. That is 40 boxes of shells @ a cost of around a buck each. Now multiply that times a factor of 5(+) and the cost gets prohibitive. I mean $40.00 is bad enough but $200.00 is a lot worse. The .17 Mach 2 will be a specialty round until it can compete with the .22 rimfire price wise. Same goes for the .17 HMR. Also I have been seeing a number of used .17 HMR rifles in the gun shops for sale but no .22 WMR rifles. Cost of the ammo has got to be the reason(as stated by the gun shop owners). The .22 rimfires have been around for way to long for any newcomer to displace them. Lawdog

Flash · « **Reply #15 on:** April 11, 2004, 03:26:18 PM »

Those 4 boxes of 22 ammo are most likely around .00000000000000000000000000001% of what's sold in rimfire ammo around the country in a day. The hype of the 17 HRM proves how the public had accepted the first 17 and if the ammunition shortage was due to tooling and demand, what do you think the manufacturers will produce? I would rather sell a box and make $3 than sell a box and make .30 and I'm sure the manufacturers are thinking the same thing. To supply the 17 Mach 2 craze, demand might well place 22 rf ammo on the back burner, at least with the ones who produce both. So, those little dollar boxes of 22 rf ammo just might go up in price, so not to take sales away from the 17's. Sure, I would love to have cheap rim fire ammo but the 17 is all about a nitch in the market and sales. The manufacturers could care less about the prarrie dog population, the century old history of the 22 rim fire or someone struggling to afford a weekend of plinking. If you don't buy the ammo, there are millions in line that will and gladly. I'm not saying that the 22 will wind up like the 5mm but I feel comfortable to say that it will soon, no longer be the rimfire of choice.

jgalar · « **Reply #16 on:** April 12, 2004, 04:06:37 AM »

As long as Hornady is the only one that makes the actual bullet, prices will remain high. Hornady will be making money hand over fist with the 17s.

I would like someone to make a 17 rimfire bullet that doesn't blow the cr@p out of the critter your shooting.

Bullseye · « **Reply #17 on:** April 12, 2004, 02:00:40 PM »

Hornady is coming out with a 20 gr. XTP hollowpoint in the 17 HMR. My dealer has them on order. They are not supposed to be quite so explosive, we will see.

Doc T · « **Reply #18 on:** April 13, 2004, 09:05:03 AM »

I hear that T/C is going to make their Classic semi-auto rifle in this caliber. I told my local dealer that I wanted the first one he could get his hands on! I think it might be just the thing for squirrel hunting. I hope it doesn't tear them up to bad with a body shot. (I can't always hit them in the head.)

sduve · « **Reply #19 on:** April 14, 2004, 03:35:32 PM »

Would it be possible to fire the .17 HM2 in the .17HMR? Does the fact that they are bottleneck make it impossible or just not practical?

KN · « **Reply #20 on:** April 14, 2004, 03:46:18 PM »

Case diameters will be slightly different. HMR is a 22mag parent case, and the HM2 is a 22lr case. It may fire in an HMR barrel but I wouldn't want to do it on purpose. KN

XP1900 · « **Reply #21 on:** April 14, 2004, 03:48:46 PM »

Quote

Would it be possible to fire the .17 HM2 in the .17HMR?

this was answered on the rifirecentral forum and the answer is no. i believe one guy, who gets to test the new stuff, said that it would fall too far into the hmr chamber and the firing pin wouldn't hit it hard enough.

S.S. · « **Reply #22 on:** April 15, 2004, 05:41:25 AM »

No doubt that the Firearms industry will make a killing
money wise on these firearms and ammo. Example:
The Ruger 10/22 can still be had for less than 200 bucks,
The Ruger 10/17 has a SRP of $450.00!
I find it hard to believe that it costs Ruger $250.00
to bore and chamber a .17 caliber barrel.
As I understand it, that is the only difference between the two!
The old saying of "You get what you pay for" no longer
stands true. You normally just get shafted more when you pay more!
Without the Kiss afterwards :oops: !!!!

wildbirdhunter · « **Reply #23 on:** April 16, 2004, 05:51:58 PM »

I have a little more insight them most people on the 17Auglia. I can tell you that it is not dead but alive a well and being tested buy two guys I know. The 17m2 is going to have a 17grain v-max just like the 17HMR is but only going 2100FPS at best with a BC of .125 per Varmint Al. the 17Aguila will have a 20grain jacketed HP going 1850FPS with a much better BC. Plus from what I under stand the 17Aguila in be on the market very soon as in the next month or two.
Here is a little insight into the round from one of the guys testing it.
The 17 Aguila is designed for hunting edible game and vermin control. The HM2 was (perhaps) designed as a "close range" varminter? The Aguila will take game with minimal meat damage, the V-max is made for rapid expansion. I haven't shot the HM2 but I'm imagining some devastating results on small game under 50 yards so, as a squirrel gun or rabbit gun, this might not be the round for you if you want to put the meat in the pot. I have shot the Aguila and it does what it's designed to do. Both are accurate ( I have read about the HM2 but I can vouch first hand for the Aguila) and both shoot flat enough to be an improvement, trajectory-wise, over a 22LR out to 100 yards. A shooter can choose the round as it suits his or her needs.

The American shooting public has this thing for speed. Look at all the Eastern hunter who bought 17 HMR's and were amazed that it was too violent on the game they liked to eat. Obviously, they bought the ticket without checking where that train was headed. I think anybody in the market for a "17 LR" should take a look at what the usage will be and decide which of the new rounds will punch their ticket.

When it comes to who will "win" -Hornady or Aguila- well, with factory rifles already on the docket for the HM2 it's obvious that the market advantage looks to be in Hornady's favor. Still, barrels are available for the Aguila for 77/22, 96/22. and of course, 10/22's... and the Aguila will be on the market first. Should be an interesting Spring.
WBH

Litefoot · « **Reply #24 on:** April 25, 2004, 08:44:36 PM »

I have to agree with Lawdog. As long as there are folks that want to shoot with their kids and grandkids...and shoot lots...the 22LR will be around forever. Look at history. How many .30 caliber/7mm wiz-bang cartridges have come along to replace the venerable 30-06 Springfield? I couldn't count them all. Most have had decent success, but they haven't knocked the '06 off it's perch as the most versatile and readily available and best-selling .30 caliber cartridge. I think the .22 lr is like that and will be just fine for many years.

Fla Brian · « **Reply #25 on:** April 29, 2004, 09:21:48 AM »

Quote from: Flash

Those 4 boxes of 22 ammo are most likely around .00000000000000000000000000001% of what's sold in rimfire ammo around the country in a day. The hype of the 17 HRM proves how the public had accepted the first 17 and if the ammunition shortage was due to tooling and demand, what do you think the manufacturers will produce? I would rather sell a box and make $3 than sell a box and make .30 and I'm sure the manufacturers are thinking the same thing. To supply the 17 Mach 2 craze, demand might well place 22 rf ammo on the back burner, at least with the ones who produce both. So, those little dollar boxes of 22 rf ammo just might go up in price, so not to take sales away from the 17's. Sure, I would love to have cheap rim fire ammo but the 17 is all about a nitch in the market and sales. The manufacturers could care less about the prarrie dog population, the century old history of the 22 rim fire or someone struggling to afford a weekend of plinking. If you don't buy the ammo, there are millions in line that will and gladly. I'm not saying that the 22 will wind up like the 5mm but I feel comfortable to say that it will soon, no longer be the rimfire of choice.

You are overlooking a few facts.

1) There is economy of scale. The ammo companies do better to make .30 a box on the huge number of boxes they sell of .22s than $3.00 a box on the relative handful they sell of .17HMR. They sell more .22lrs by a tremendous margin than they will ever sell in .17HMR.

This is because of 2) the huge "installed base" of .22rf firearms.

3) There is no slowdown in the rate of .22 firearm construction, so that "installed base" will be huge, much larger than for any specialty round, for a very long time to come.

4) The .22 Stingers (and other hyper velocity numbers) and .22 magnums have been around for quite a long time, both offering performance advantages over the .22lr, and both selling for a lot more than the standard .22s, but they have not displaced the .22lr in the marketplace. Neither has become "the rimfire of choice."

5) Most purchasers of rimfire ammunition are not firearms enthusiasts, and it is highly unlikely that they will abandon the cheaper .22s in favor of some expensive specialty cartridge. They're not interested in such statistics as muzzle velocity or trajectory. They're not out there measuring and recording groups. They're plinkers, and, when they buy, they buy according to what is least expensive.

jimmyjoe · « **Reply #26 on:** May 10, 2004, 11:13:27 AM »

Brian, I think you have missed one point. The Stinger-type ammo hasn't sold IMHO because it has shown itself, by and large, to be as accurate as throwing a muddy softball. I tried most of those hyper-velocity 22lr rounds when they came out, and I got disgusted quick. Same thing with a lot of the other hunters I know. If they'd have been accurate, I think ( again, my opinion only) that they would have a huge sector of the marketplace. The way it is, they're known as junk.
And the 17m2 is supposed to be ACCURATE. No heeled bullet, and no lube. So far, so good. But...........
Which brings us to a point brought up earlier by WBH. The Hornady bullet is explosive, whereas the Aguila bullet (jacketed???) is more amenable to taking edible small game.
The hunters I know don't run off the mouth. And most of them shoot surprisingly well. Marketers can't hear them, so they tend to discount them. (The Silent Majority???) As a result, something which appeals to this "silent" majority will appear to be a huge unforeseen success. One of those "inexplicable" successes.
Horse hockey. The explanation is easy.
Give a man what he wants, and he'll buy it. Sell him something he DOESN'T want, and you're a one-shot wonder. The Aguila people understand what the everyday hunter needs. Hornady understands how to avoid lawsuits from people who don't know what they're doing. Vocal people. (I don't blame them.) So I think the Aguila will sell. Quietly, slowly and smoothly, but it will sell. And it will stay.
I think that in ten years, the 17HMR will be a niche item only, if it survives at all. And the 17m2 might be around, but for plinkers and shooting near populated areas only. The bullet just isn't any good for pot hunting.

Lawdog · « **Reply #27 on:** May 10, 2004, 11:34:59 AM »

jimmyjoe,

Quote

The Stinger-type ammo hasn't sold IMHO because it has shown itself, by and large, to be as accurate as throwing a muddy softball.

I have to disagree with you here. I have three 10/22's and a 77/22 that shoots .22 Stingers into groups that measure under 1/2" at 50 yards, no problem. In fact Stingers perform the best in these rifle. I know many squirrel hunters that rely on Stingers for quick, reliable kills on tree squirrels. If they didnt perform the way they do people wouldnt buy them and CCI would have dropped them from their line a long time ago. Maybe for some reason they didnt work for you but there are many thousands of us that they do work for. Small groups and tight lines to you. Lawdog

jimmyjoe · « **Reply #28 on:** May 10, 2004, 05:52:41 PM »

Lawdog;
You're the first person who has claimed anywhere near that kind of accuracy from hyper-velocity 22s! They've been used around here for beer cans and raccoons. Two questions: 1) Did you or the people you know who get good accuracy from hyper-velocity rounds get barrels with chambers more conducive to those kind of rounds? 2)Do you know of people who get good accuracy with Stinger types in stock rifles? And to prove I can't count, a third question: What temperature are you shooting at? (I'm envious; and accurate Stinger would be my dream!) jj

Darrell Davis · « **Reply #29 on:** May 11, 2004, 06:14:40 AM »

Good morning all you shooters.

As with the rest of you, this is just my personal opinion. However, I must come down with Lawdog in a number of areas.

As for me and the 17HMR, sorry, to much for to little.

Now this 17mach2 on the other hand, just may have something going for it as a fun, LOW VOLUMN, (!) plinker/varmit round. In fact it just might be a whole lot of fun.

BUT, again it is to much ($) for to little (vel.) for this Ol'boy to get overly excited about.

A short time ago I picked up 3 cartons of CCI Blazers, which shoot all out of proportion to their price, and paid less then $30 for the lot. That total cost, in case some haven't noticed, is a bunch below the cost of just one carton of the new 17. Let me see, does that figure out to 1500 shots against 500 shots?

Now I like to shoot, and I like to shoot things which go fast and hit where I aim, but there are a lot of times I like to shoot with little or no thought to the cost and no worry about not being able to find the brass in the tall grass. The 17s and the 22mag. can never fill that bill for me, just to much buck for the bang. So for me, if and when I want "bang," I'll pay a little bit more in the buck dept. and come up with some real bang.

If I am lucky, I just may get the chance to shoot someone's 17 a shot or two, but if not, I'll be happy as a clam just shooting away with my MKII and my Clark Custom 77/22, which by the way, hits where I aim.

Hope you all enjoy those new rifles, and IF (?) some of you are correct and the .22LR does go the way of the Edsel, well then, you'll get a chance to meet me. I'll be ahead of you in the check out line, the old guy buying out the stores remaining stock of .22LR.

Keep em coming! :wink: