best attribue of a 1911

[Mike in Virginia]

We can look forward to bans and taxes on military type weapons, but none will touch on the 1911.  Probably, the best thing about a 1911 is that is very effective as either an offensive or defensive weapn; it will survive the current curb on weapons, regardless of it's anemic capacity.  Our 1911's do not and cannot put forward sufficent numbers to make them illegal.  7 or 8 shots from a pistol are insuffient in both reality and probabily that they will be a target of seizure.  I'm more worried about my 9mm's which take more than twice the rounds og a .45acp. 

[Ranger99]

it's a firearm- it goes boom- it's
in private hands.
it qualifies for the gun haters to
want it taken away from you.
you don't need one they say, that's
what the police are for. if you have
trouble, call 911


hate to say it, but that's what i believe.

[SharonAnne]

the 1911 is the Small Block Chevy of the gun world.  In its' basic form it is great. Then you can if you wish, modify greatness to suit your personal preferences.  Aluminum heads, air gap intake, 4 barrel carb, headers.

The 1911 is the same. beavertail, ambi thumb safety, mag well, checkering. and on and on. great is its basic form, amazing when personalized.

[Mikey]

Uh, caliber?

[SharonAnne]

.45ACP or course,   if you feel like something else, the 9x23 Winchester. With its load of 125gr bullet at 1450fps it is the equal of the vaunted .357 Magnum load reported as the best manstopper ever.

I do use the 9x23W in my USPSA/IPSC open class pistol.  For Limited Class I use the .45 ACP 

For carry I use only the .45 ACP

[Dixie Dude]

Can the 9x23 Winchester also shoot 9mm Parabelum?  If it did that would be a good gun to have and use the 9mm Para for target practice and plinking.  One good thing about the 1911 is it is all steel, it will not burn up in a fire, except maybe the handles.  It can probably be ran over without failure.  The plastic carbon fiber ones can burn and crack if ran over.  They are nice and light and have higher capacity mags.  I hope Feinsteins bill will not make it to the floor to be voted on.  Hope Harry Reid remembers who backed him. 

[Mikey]

Dixie Dude:  the 1911 in 9x23 Winchester will probably not properly chamber a 9x19 (9mm) round, which may slip deeper into the chamber than it should or else get cuaght by the extractor which could bust if the 9x23 is fired with 9x19mm rounds.  We used to find that happening a lot with the older 9mm Largo (9x23 European loadings of pre WWII fame) when we used 9mm Luger ammo in them.
 
However, that being said, a 9mm barrel is interchangable with the 9x23 barrel but you may need to use a lighterweight recoil spring to get the piece to function.  Your 9x23 magazines should work ok with the 9x19 round though.  HTH.

[williamlayton]

There are some things that need to be altered to make it function properly.
properly needs to beunderstood.
Alll purpose/multi-caliber weapons---especially in semi-autos---is a can of worms and things just do not always go according to plans with them.
Blessings

[Dee]

The 357sig regardless of what it is called, because of bullet configuration and it's slight reduction in caliber, is NOT the equal of the 125 grain jacketed hollow point in 357 magnum. The data CLAIMING this is ASSUMING the souped up 9mm's hollow point works every time. It does not. Advertising and gun rag writers have published much disinformation, that their readers buy into.

[Mikey]

I think the only reason the 1911 pistols are not on anyone's hit list is because they are 7 shooters stock from the factory and far too many anti gun idjits belive the same way mfv believes,  that 7 shots from a pistol are insufficient, but for what I don't know.  The last time I had to use one, the 7 shot mag capacity worked just fine; but what do I know in comparison with someone who never used one on a battlefield......

[SharonAnne]

I do not see how a reduction of 0.002" could make a difference when the bullets are the same weight and velocity. Yes some hollow points do not work correctly, which can be said of the .357 Magnum also.

[mcwoodduck]

We can look forward to bans and taxes on military type weapons, but none will touch on the 1911.  Probably, the best thing about a 1911 is that is very effective as either an offensive or defensive weapn; it will survive the current curb on weapons, regardless of it's anemic capacity.  Our 1911's do not and cannot put forward sufficent numbers to make them illegal.  7 or 8 shots from a pistol are insuffient in both reality and probabily that they will be a target of seizure.  I'm more worried about my 9mm's which take more than twice the rounds og a .45acp.

The original assault weapons ban, you had to have a few of these items to be an assault weapon.
Semi Auto
Detachable magizine
collapsible stock
Flash hider
Bayonette lug
pistol grip.
The new proposed NY state law wants to limit rounds to 7 in a mag but also if any weapon has even one of the criteria to be an assault reapon the nit would be banned in NY.   And the new law does not state rifle it says firearm.
So let's look at your 1911,   
Pistol grip -  There is one strike Gee all semi auto pistols have a pistol grip.
Detachable magizine -There is strike 2
Semi Auto - Strike three in a game if single elimination.
If you think that some of your collection is safe and there fore are not worried about the next gun laws you need to rethink it.  They are after your 1911.

[wolverine_1]

        "It can probably be ran over without failure."
Over 50 years ago, when I still had a learners permit, Pop got a 1911 from the DCM.  We went down town to register it (Omaha) and he put the box on top of the car and got in.  I drove.  When we got down there, we didn't have the gun.  Went home, got the box and went back down to do our "duty."  There were tire tracks on the box and the plastic grip was cracked (still is), but the gun still worked fine and still does.  Point is you can run over it and still have it work, at least with a Colt.

[Dee]

I do not see how a reduction of 0.002" could make a difference when the bullets are the same weight and velocity. Yes some hollow points do not work correctly, which can be said of the .357 Magnum also.

SharonAnne, it isn't all about bullet diameter. It is about NOSE SURFACE, and the delivery of energy, with or without the hollow point. I made my living teaching this (retired). I know it SEEMS to be the same, but it is not.
The only reason it called the 357sig, is for MARKETING. The 9mm has the poorest 1 shot stopping record in L.E. handgun history. The key is "bullet CONFIGURATION", in this case, and weight and velocity do not play that big a part.
An example on the configuration issue is, that the 9mm has ALWAYS out penetrated the 357 magnum in things like Kevlar, and other materials because it concentrates it's energy on a SMALLER BULLET NOSE SURFACE.
Hollow points work on HYDROLICS, i.e. body fluids. If a hollow point goes thru certain types of fabrics, or coats, or layers of clothes, the hollow point acts like a "cookie cutter", and the hollow point fills up with material essentially become BALL ROUND, and will open very little if any at all.
Like I said. As an Investigator I saw this, went to school for this, and experienced this, testified to this, as did other officers in this field. The gun rag writers, are promoting these new bullets FOR the manufacturers, FOR money, but reality is reality.
I am sure that there will be some 9mm fans that will vigorously disagree with me, and so be it. I don't debate. I am giving facts not theory, or opinions from some book or chart someone made up on kinetic energy, or hydrostatic shock in a testing laboratory for manufacturer marketing.

[hillbill]

the best attribute of a 1911? they just feel and point good. they are tuff, easy to strip and clean,they are made of metal.parts are easy to find. they shoot cast well.you can get 10 round mags.with one in the pipe thats 11 rounds.they are proven over 100 years. take your pick.

[mcwoodduck]

Dee,
I am not goingto argue with you on the ballistics or the design of the bullets.
But I have one questions about the poorest one shot stop comment.
Do you think as departments went from the revolver to the semi auto, the budgets were strained and range time was reduced?
Also do you think the false sense of a huge mag allowing police to bang away rather than knowing they only had 6 and to make them count reduced marksmanship reducing the one shot stops?
And by far more big city police departments went to the 9mm, the bulk of the shootings are going to be in 9mm and with 15 rounds do you think they are sending 2 or three when one could have worked.  Not arguing I believe in the double tap. 
In "street stoppers" the 9mm was listed at 63% one shot stops with ball and the 45 ACP was only 1 or 2% more with the FMJ loads.
 

[Spirithawk]

What hollow points do feed well in a 1911? Does it just depend on the gun or do some universaly feed better than others? My son gave me a few Winchesters  and they don't feed well at all in my Rock Island. Seems as if either the front of the bullet or casing catches going into the feed ramp when chambering a round by hand. Jiggle the slide a bit and it feeds in. Haven't tried firing them in it yet. Ball ammo feeds flawlessly. Would a differant magazine make any diferance?
 
Never mind. It was my fault not the gun's. They feed fine if you let the slide slam home on it's own. I had been holding onto the slide and feeding the cartridge in too slow.
 
 

[Dee]

Dee,
I am not goingto argue with you on the ballistics or the design of the bullets.
But I have one questions about the poorest one shot stop comment.
Do you think as departments went from the revolver to the semi auto, the budgets were strained and range time was reduced?
Also do you think the false sense of a huge mag allowing police to bang away rather than knowing they only had 6 and to make them count reduced marksmanship reducing the one shot stops?
 
duck, the difference in the two rounds (357 magnum vs 357sig) is about energy delivery, balance in penetration, and behavioral differences of the round after delivery into the body.
To answer this question from firsthand experience, not only as an officer in the time period this all began, but as a police combat firearms instructor. Very little monies were appropriated during that time for training with the revolver or the occasional semi-auto pistol. Police officers more often than not were lousy shots. Most still are. The pistol over a period of time to most become a burden required but seldom used.
Many carried the 38 special in 158 grain jacketed soft point and the FBI still issued the Smith Model 10 4" with a 158 grain LEAD hollow point in 38 special. That outta date me.
The 357 magnum 125 grain jacketed hollow point was KING during this time, for a reason. In actual shootings it had a good rep with stats from FBI kept records of ALL police shootings NATION WIDE, for: reliable penetration, but not excessive, good energy deliver because of the wide face of the projectile, whether the hollow point opened or not, and a tendency not to deflect off bone, but to "break bone" when coming into contact. All these factors contributed to its stopping power.
When the 9mm "police craze" struck, actual shooting data immediately started pouring in, and it was found to be lacking miserably. Penetration was what it always was, the 9mm was heavily dependent on the hollow point OPENING, and most times it did not for prior reasons mentioned, it's more "conical shape" tended to "glance off bone", rater than break it.
THUS INVENTED A HOPEFUL SOLUTION: The "double tap". For no other reason that the 9mm's weaknesses, was the double tap invented for police training. Hell, they sent me to school to teach me, to teach them.
Marksmanship WENT DOWN with the hi-cap 9mm pistols, and so did hits. Many depts that have the funds are transitioning away from the 9mm, as is the military for all these reasons, that I knew back in the late 70s.

And by far more big city police departments went to the 9mm, the bulk of the shootings are going to be in 9mm and with 15 rounds do you think they are sending 2 or three when one could have worked.  Not arguing I believe in the double tap. 
 
Absolutely! But there are far better rounds than the weakling 9mm. In my opinion the 40 S&W is one of the BEST fighting rounds to come out in many years, and I prefer it over the 357 mag. AND! I don't carry a hollow point but rather a FLAT point in 180 grain. It delivers energy, and will bite into bone the same way it will into a bowling pin when hit close to the edge.
Also understand that a great shot on the range, will lose over 60% of his proficiency under stress in an actual shooting incident. It's a hard thing to do, to stand and fight, knowing you might catch a round coming your way, and not many can do it. It is something you will re-live over and over, for the rest of your life.
 
In "street stoppers" the 9mm was listed at 63% one shot stops with ball and the 45 ACP was only 1 or 2% more with the FMJ loads.

The 45acp in ball ammo is notorious for glancing off of steeply slopped windshields, and is a poor stopper in humans, and is still better than a 9mm. The 45acp is about mass, while the 9mm is about hope.

[SharonAnne]

Dee, I don't know why you brought the 357Sig into this. I was talking about the 9x23 Winchester a very different round.

The 'double tap' had nothing to do with the 9mmP. It was not invented by but was the darling of Jeff Cooper, a man who would have cut his own throat before he would carry a 9mmP.  A bit of revisionist history taking place there.

[Dee]

Dee, I don't know why you brought the 357Sig into this. I was talking about the 9x23 Winchester a very different round.

Ok, I wasn't payin attention, my bad. However, the 357sig, and the 9x23 are only different is case design, they are VERY alike in velocity, and performance. You win, and I'll shut up.

[Dee]

Dee, I don't know why you brought the 357Sig into this. I was talking about the 9x23 Winchester a very different round.

The 'double tap' had nothing to do with the 9mmP. It was not invented by but was the darling of Jeff Cooper, a man who would have cut his own throat before he would carry a 9mmP.  A bit of revisionist history taking place there.

Whatever.

[SharonAnne]

The only 'conical' nose 9mmP I can think of is the Federal C9BP. All of the others I am aware of would look like a flat point if plugged.

[Empty Quiver]

When you run out of bullets it is heavy enough to deliver a good pistol whipping?

[mcwoodduck]

Dee,
 I think I understand.  There is a relationship between the flat front of the bullet in relations ship to the diameter.
So a 40 has a flat front that  (let's call) is 85% of the diameter of the base the 357 mag too has a 85% while due to older 9mm designs that mostly shot FMJ the bullets have a 40% flat front and the sloped projectile to facilitate reliable feeding aids in the deflection against hard objects. 
The smaller frontal diameter of the hollowpoint tends to fill with gunk and not expand.  And due to the semi pointed 9mm bullets that again aid in feeding in semi autos will penetrate more than a similar bullet with a flatter frontal section. 
Short sloped side walls like the 357 bullets and the 40 will hit flat and for lack of a better word bore through hard objects because of the almost right angles.   If the 357 Sig or the 38 Super actually used 357 revolver projectiles it would be more effective due to the flatter sharper angles. 

[Dee]

Dee,
 I think I understand.  There is a relationship between the flat front of the bullet in relations ship to the diameter.
So a 40 has a flat front that  (let's call) is 85% of the diameter of the base the 357 mag too has a 85% while due to older 9mm designs that mostly shot FMJ the bullets have a 40% flat front and the sloped projectile to facilitate reliable feeding aids in the deflection against hard objects. 
The smaller frontal diameter of the hollowpoint tends to fill with gunk and not expand.  And due to the semi pointed 9mm bullets that again aid in feeding in semi autos will penetrate more than a similar bullet with a flatter frontal section. 
Short sloped side walls like the 357 bullets and the 40 will hit flat and for lack of a better word bore through hard objects because of the almost right angles.   If the 357 Sig or the 38 Super actually used 357 revolver projectiles it would be more effective due to the flatter sharper angles.

Exactly! AND! Would shed more energy quicker in the body.

[SHOOTALL]

Today when you buy a 125 gr 357 mag you often get a bullet profile much like a 9mm  hp bullet . Back in the day when the 357 mag was making it's 90% + one shot stop record the bullet was more of a jacketed semi wad cutter HP bullet. It had a defined shoulder that was squared off as compared to the rounded 9mm bullet. Like stated the 9mm sometimes did not open up and did not do much damage as the wound closed behing the bullet as it passed thru. the body. The 357 mag bullet could just as easy fill and fail to open but with more FPS and more exposed lead it tended to do so less. BUT if it did that shoulder working like as noted a cookie cutter would leave an open wound and also cut bone instead of maybe being deflected around it. In todays world it seems the 40 S&W is filling the role of best cal.
 As for the 1911 it's best attribute is it's age. By todays standards it's to heavy , to many controls to have to master , often needs work right out the box, cost to much and other negatives. But by being around as long as it has many shooters know what it is and how to shoot it. By being around as long as it has there is a stock pile of parts around and ammo. It's still a very workable gun if not the best choice. As for 7 rounds there are snail drum mags for it , extended stick mags for it and 14 round frames for it so it's not imune from gun laws . And other than a Colt SAA it has about the fastest lock time of any handgun ( read fires faster ) . The biggest draw back to the 1911 is the un educated that pass laws falsely believe it is un safe  .
 I like the 1911 so none of that is a cut . Now for a side story , A friend is a cop and he and his dept love the Glock. His one complaint was in a struggle (fight) a cop hit a bad guy with his Glock and the slide came off the frame . Now I wonder if a 1911 has ever been used to wack someone and the slide fell off ? I doubt it also.

[RevJim]

Best attribute, whether in stock form or tricked out is the trigger! Now, it won't be exempt or miss out on any gun ban, they will just say
A. "Weapons made for war have no place in society"; 1911 was made for war
B. "No one needs a handgun ( insert 1911)  to shoot ducks or hunt deer."; the current antis argument
 

[SHOOTALL]

it's already illegal to shoot ducks with a handgun  .

[Dee]

Best attribute, whether in stock form or tricked out is the trigger! Now, it won't be exempt or miss out on any gun ban, they will just say
A. "Weapons made for war have no place in society"; 1911 was made for war
B. "No one needs a handgun ( insert 1911)  to shoot ducks or hunt deer."; the current antis argument

I would agree. The sear set on a 1911 is one of the fastest in handguns. Revolvers can't even touch it in that category. The government cares about none of this really, and the 2nd Amendment is not about hunting. They just want your gun.

[mcwoodduck]

Best attribute, whether in stock form or tricked out is the trigger! Now, it won't be exempt or miss out on any gun ban, they will just say
A. "Weapons made for war have no place in society"; 1911 was made for war
B. "No one needs a handgun ( insert 1911)  to shoot ducks or hunt deer."; the current antis argument

I would agree. The sear set on a 1911 is one of the fastest in handguns. Revolvers can't even touch it in that category. The government cares about none of this really, and the 2nd Amendment is not about hunting. They just want your gun.

But the original post was about the 1911 not being in the sights of the anti gunners and gun grabbers, not what makes it a great firearm.