gun or shooter registration / licensing/

[Dand]

Now don't launch off to Mars on this.  I'm totally against gun registration.  And a little while after I completed my concealed carry permit I realised I had gone and registered MYSELF! I didn't like the feeling.


But...


Can any current or former LEO, prosecutor or similarly qualified person explain how proponents of registration think it will reduce gun violence or make things safer?  Are there examples of when it worked (even partially or sometimes)?


I'm really trying to understand so please not a lot of angry answers etc. but how is it supposed to work? I know it won't just like prohibition and the drug war haven't worked very well at all.


I figure I might be better able to come up with counter arguments but I'd like to have firm understanding.

[Tiapan64]

Very good question Dand,
I too would like to know.  I recently purchased a firearm for my wife through her uncle, a ffl holder.  He ordered it for me and I filled out the paperwork and he made the call to a number.  We waited for the return call and I disassembled the pistol and checked the workings of the piece while we waited as he said it would be a few minutes.  Call was returned as I finished reassembling the pistol and I had to give it back to him as they had put a 5 day hold on the purchase.  Was told it is random and having never been arrested or charged with anything ever in my life that I could have the weapon probably the next week.  So I left and went home....no gun.  He calls me the next day and says they ok'ed the purchase and the gun was mine.....So I asked him when I got there.....how does this thing work.....he says that when he calls they put the name of the person who is buying the firearm in a database with the firearm reg. number and hold it till it is ok'ed then it is removed!! (yeah right)....He is required to hold the info. for 20 yrs then he can destroy it.  So I asked him,  How do they know like after a shooting who the gun was registered to at purchase it they (remove it from the system)  He says it is removed from the federal system, but all states maintain a copy of that database for guns in thier state and that they are all interlinked through the network.....so essentially if you purchase a firearm the way I did, you and that firearm are linked nationwide forever.....hhmmm...that is about as clear as mud...So like you I would like to know also.  Seems if the gun is stolen and you don't report it and it is used in a crime...someone (you) got some s'plainin to do.  I guess if you sell it and don't go thru the proper channels the same thing?

[SharonAnne]

"proper channels"   there is no requirement to use an ffl for a private purchase. What "proper channels" do you refer to?

[RevJim]

 I see no reason at all for gun registration other than for future confiscation. As a CCW holder for over 20 yrs, here in Utah, I have already proven, via FBI BCI, etc, that I am legal to carry a concealed weapon. Period. Existing laws on the books prohibit me from selling/giving or loaning any firearm to a minor, or Felon. Period. The government has no "right" to know just what I own, have in my possession or what I do with it, as long as I follow the existing laws. Period.
As far as I am concerned, since "I" am registered via the Permit Process, that's all they need to know. There are many laws already on the books that, if I break them, I will lose my "privilege" to carry concealed, and if my actions are felonious, my "Right" to own any weapon. See, as a society, we have already compromised to the point of "infringement". No, I see no good from gun registration itself. But that's just me, heck, I "may" not even have a gun, I might just have a  CCW Permit, I know lots of folks like that. Would that mean I would have to lose my 'Permit" if I could not produce a gun for registration? See, what a crock of doo-doo this stir up!?

[Tiapan64]

Well, what I ment was if you don't go thru a FFL, then wouldn't it be still tied to you even after you got rid of it.  I mean I know it isn't required or anything, just that one day the police or fbi or someone might come looking for it as it had been tied to a crime.  I know if you have nothing to hide then thats fine...especially if it is not in your town but far away where you couldn't be, but seems like they might want an explination as to why you don't have the firearm now...Guess never having purchased a firearm from an person other than an FFL or a store, I was just curious.  Thats all I was wondering.  Most of my long guns are from my family after they died.  I mean I don't really want them knowing what I have or don't have either....but I have just only purchased from stores and ffl persons...individuals never crossed my mind. 

[DDZ]

Gun registration will not reduce crime, and politicians know it. The only reason some of them want gun registration is they know that it will make gun confiscation that much easier with registration in place. Gun confiscation is their ultimate goal, period. The more ignorant people they can convince that more laws, gun registration, or bans will reduce crime with firearms. The closer they get to confiscation. Disarming America would give government complete control and ultimate power over the populace. 
Violent crime in America has been cut in half in the last twenty years, but to listen to the media, one would think that violent crime with firearms has risen to an epidemic. Crime with a rifle is only 3.5% of crimes committed with a firearm. AR style firearms fall under the rifle category, but yet all the fuss is about getting rid of AR style rifles. The facts are there, and gun grabbing politicians know what they are. They play on people's ignorance and fears to accomplish their agenda.
History has shown that gun registration always leads to gun confiscation, and many times confiscation has led to genocide. Gun control laws are nothing but weapons for a government to remove rights from people. 
The only way to reduce crime with firearms is for law abiding people to own firearms and be able to carry them where ever they want. Disarmed people are neither free nor safe. They just become prey for criminals, and playthings for tyrants.     

[powderman]

Can any current or former LEO, prosecutor or similarly qualified person explain how proponents of registration think it will reduce gun violence or make things safer?  Are there examples of when it worked (even partially or sometimes)?

 
DAND. REgistration worked very well for hitler as well as other despots. Other than that?? POWDERMAN. 

[Dand]

The guy who got me into reloading in the 70's had fought in France and he told me how Hitler had gone door to door collecting the guns in some of the European countries he overran.  He also told me what it was like to be on the front lines getting shot at with everything from rifle to artillery.  He made a big impression on me. 


Another friend spent 8 yrs in Ireland where he had to justify having more than 1 shotgun and had to jump through many hoops to have 2. I can't remember if he had to store it at the police station or what but it sure sounded like a pain. 


We hear how many of the guns used in criminal acts have the serial numbers ground off.


So it sure looks to me like gun registration is mostly a confiscation plan.


I would just like to challenge these pro-registration folks to produce solid explanations of what they would do with it, how it reduces crime etc.


Also point out to them that Canada scrapped their long gun registration after it became a money eating monster for no significant help on crime.
Also, I'm willing to listen to the concept of registering firearms offenders as long as there aren't a zillion silly little laws devised just to make criminals out of every gun owner.
I'm still open to hearing the supporting side......... just to learn.

[DDZ]

Dand, if you do hear a supporting side it will be nothing but lies, because there really is no supporting facts that registration aids in gun crime reduction. Registration is nothing but a feel good deception that gets unquestioned by the media, it engorges the state and federal bureaucracy, and undercuts Americans freedoms. 

[Tackleberry]

who would not report a gun stolen unless it was an illegal weapon or stolen itself.
 
 

[Redtail1949]

registration is just part of the overall plan. to make it easy to find gun owners when they move to confiscate them. oooh an about them no paperwork private transactions..listen to obama tomorrow he will end that with the stroke of a pen...
they are coming for all our guns one way are the other..

[reliquary]

Dand:  here's how gun control legislation is supposed to work, in the words of a liberal gungrabber friend of mine:
"If we could just pass the right law, everyone would turn in all their guns, even the criminals, and there would be no more gun violence."  She has also said, in the past, "The only ones who should have guns are the police and the military, and then only when they're on duty."  I've found no good way to counter that kind of ignorance concerning criminal nature
 
Gun control laws don't keep criminals from getting and using them.  If gun control laws worked, Chicago, LA, and NYC would have no gun violence.  Registration has, historically, just been the first step toward confiscation

[Dand]

Reliquary, I wonder how your friend grew up with the idea that humans are intrinsically nice? Probably hasn't raised kids either.
Wow.  She needs to read Lord of The Flies etc.


Yeah if a person plans to use a gun to steel stuff or kill some one they aren't too concerned about gun laws of any kind.


The NY requirement to report stolen guns in 24 hrs - crazy, there are many scenarios where the owner might not even know they've been robbed for days or weeks if they are on vacation etc.


And will all the tube mag 22 rifles have to be sold or modified somehow?


I don't want to be callous but I get really annoyed at justifying gestapo regulations by saying "if it saves just one life........"


Freedom isn't SAFE and if we take that attitude this country would be totally paralyzed - no cars, no airlines, no logging jobs, oil worker jobs etc etc.  NUTS.

[spruce]

Laws don't stop people from doing ANYTHING, never have, never will.  We already have plenty of laws on the books that prohibit doing evil - murder, stealing, etc, etc.  Do they prevent crime?  No they don't.  What they do is enable us to remove the lawbreaker from society (either permanently or temporarily) to prevent them from doing more evil against society. 
 
Due to the liberal influence on our justice system the evil doers are seldom removed from society (incarcerated or executed) for anywhere near the length of time they should be for the evil they committed.  And as a consequence they are turned loose back into society to commit more and more evil.
 
The ONLY reason the anti-gun people push for more restrictive gun laws is to progress step by step towards their TRUE goal of a complete ban of all firearms.  Requiring all transfers to go through an FFL is nothing more than a way for the gun-grabbers (government) to know exactly where all guns are when they decide it's time for confiscation.
 
Think about it - what difference does it make where a murderer got the gun?  Does it make any difference if he passed a background check, stole it, or bought it from a private seller?  Of course not - the victim(s) is/are still just as dead, and the only one responsible for their death(s) is the shooter(s).  The first thing the media asks is "where did he get the gun"?  Why do they always make a big deal about that?  It's to condition people into thinking it really does matter, and hence, when legislation is proposed to require all transfers have a paperwork trail the sheeple will all fall in line and think "what a great idea"!

[BBF]

Can any current or former LEO, prosecutor or similarly qualified person explain how proponents of registration think it will reduce gun violence or make things safer?  Are there examples of when it worked (even partially or sometimes)?

 
DAND. REgistration worked very well for hitler as well as other despots. Other than that?? POWDERMAN. 

You make it sound that any person could just buy a firearm in Europe for many years without any formalities. You couldn't do it prior to the 3rd Reich and you sure can't do it now.
We in Canada just relaxed our firearm laws that long guns are no longer registered and previous entries have been deleted. The individuals still have to be licensed to purchase them including powder and primers.
As a licenced individual I may sell or gift a long arm to an equally licenced person without any transfer paperwork. The application for a permit is now handled by the RCMP again, it calls for a mandatory  Firearm Safety course which must be successfully completed, the questionare is long, requires a picture, two non-related references and in case you are married it will require the awareness of your spouse or recent ex spouse. For restricted firearms it requires more endorsements.
 
Basically what this boils down to the RCMP(Govt) wants to ensure that only responsible law abiding citizen have access to firearms. It does cut down on the nutcases having access  but of course nothing is foolproof. Of course there are expenses involved.

[SHOOTALL]

Now don't launch off to Mars on this.  I'm totally against gun registration.  And a little while after I completed my concealed carry permit I realised I had gone and registered MYSELF! I didn't like the feeling.


But...


Can any current or former LEO, prosecutor or similarly qualified person explain how proponents of registration think it will reduce gun violence or make things safer?  Are there examples of when it worked (even partially or sometimes)?You have to realize that it is one step toward taking guns away from all citizens. The only ones that will be safer is the ones who will take over the govt. when all guns/resistance is gone. \
As for examples of it working some will offer countries that have little gun violence but fail to mention these countries never had a gun culture , they were never free but always subjects . England has about banned guns and crime has gone up . People still get shot. In australia gun violence went up when the guns were taken .
There are many examples of failure so ask yourself why and the only ansewer is it must be something other than the gun .


I'm really trying to understand so please not a lot of angry answers etc. but how is it supposed to work? I know it won't just like prohibition and the drug war haven't worked very well at all.


I figure I might be better able to come up with counter arguments but I'd like to have firm understanding.

[BBF]

Now someone managed to get the Gestapo into this.
 Do you see the Hollywood reinforced type indoctrination here? You could have used KGB as a more timely unit.

[SharonAnne]

gestapo, kgb, stasi , Homeland Security, same same

[BBF]

.................. he told me how Hitler had gone door to door collecting the guns in some of the European countries he overran.........Aww come on, do you really think the man had that much time on his hand?? 


Another friend spent 8 yrs in Ireland where he had to justify having more than 1 shotgun and had to jump through many hoops to have 2. I can't remember if he had to store it at the police station or what but it sure sounded like a pain. 


We hear how many of the guns used in criminal acts have the serial numbers ground off.


So far we have not have any general confiscation in Canada.


I would just like to challenge these pro-registration folks to produce solid explanations of what they would do with it, how it reduces crime etc.


Also point out to them that Canada scrapped their long gun registration after it became a money eating monster for no significant help on crime.
 
True, however we still have the individual Owners License requirements plus a mandatory Safety course.

[SharonAnne]

BBF and how has the crime rate change from before the Owners License and Safety course  and after them?

[mcwoodduck]

"proper channels"   there is no requirement to use an ffl for a private purchase. What "proper channels" do you refer to?

The problem we have is Gun laws a re a state issue and while the gun act of 1968 made the 4370 form that we all have to fill out there are different laws in every state as to what you can buy and how they do a background check.
In some states a person to person sale is limited to Knowing that he buyer is not a felon and cna legally own a firearm under federal law.  In other states like CA it is Illegal to sell or give a gun with out going through an FFL and the 10 day wait.  In other state it is an instant check with a preapproved card. 
Now if the registration comes with a national CCW and it is like a drivers license at the same cost as a driver's license for the state you live in.  And like a Drivers license it does not matter how many cars you own. 

[mcwoodduck]

BBF and how has the crime rate change from before the Owners License and Safety course  and after them?

Countries that have complete gun contols have higher murder rates than we do. 
Look at Mexico,  Military calibers are ILLEGAL and they have registration and their murder rate is 4 t o6 times higher than ours is.  What we see is the more gun control the higher the crime rate.  When I was in VA and they passed the CCW laws Viloent crime dropped by 60%.  People on the streets were kinder, you put on a blinker and people let you over and you waved, they waved.  People be came polite and you saw men holding the door open for ladies. 
Let's look at states that have CCW and those that do not.  Let's look at similar citues with the same history and background, DC Vs Arlington Va.  Seperated by a river.  Huge crime rate in DC, not so much in Arlington per capita and more violent crimes in DC.  With more rapes, robberies and muggings.

[Dand]

Thanks BBF for clarifying the current long gun rules in Canada -so still quite a few restrictions.  But I do recall a number of news items speaking to amazing costs of the registration system they had for a while. And no doubt the current system isn't free either. I know some of my Canadian in-laws who hunt envy my freedom in Alaska.


And of course BBF, Hitler himself didn't go door to door but his thugs and soldiers did. Must we get so nit picky?


So BBF what does Canada do regarding handguns? Are you allowed to have them at all?


Spruce I like you answer - I think you are very right. And so many of the clods who commit all sorts of crimes just do not stop and think - what is the penalty for this.   I think a lot of them are not capable of making the connection.  Especially when our legal system puts such a great distance between actions and consequences.


I ESPECIALLY like your observations on the press rush to find out where the gun came from whenever there was a crime.  I too have been baffled.  They seem to love to note the gun is "being traced at this time" as if that somehow will provide a major solution to the crime. I guess if a suspect gun is found at the scene, it might make a little sense.  But that's no doubt why criminals who have a tiny bit of sense want to make sure they get some gun that won't lead to them.

[BBF]

I don't have the crime  rate statistics.However firearms crimes are up because we now have more gangs in the larger cities, usually these are ethnic specific gangs and drugs are the cause. Registration has little effect on that.
 
The Registry program had a huge over budget cost. At present to own a firearm you spend a minimum of $50 for the Safety unrestricted course and an additional $ 50 for the restricted type. You have to have the first to get the second. The RCMP permit runs about the same for the first type. The restricted permit requires an additional application and fee. You also need to submit some passport style pictures. There is a 5 year renewal.
Costs depend on what class license you have.
 
Yes, you can buy and own handguns. There are specifications on them what you may or may not purchase. caliber, mag capacity and barrel length are the criteria. You must also be a current member of an approved pistol club and absolutely in no way can you carry !! Of course there is no handgun hunting.

BTW  Your handgun is never to be used for home protection and using any firearm may cost you time and a lawyer to defend yourself in frony of a Judge. Self Defense laws in Canada are not clearly defined. A baseball club or cast iron frying pan is safer to use as far as you vs the Law is concerned.

Rifles have a minimum OAL and in some cases also Min length of a barrel.
Example. You can purchase a Scout type rifle with a 16 1/2 barrel because it is a factory item but you are not permitted to cut down a rifle that came with a longer barrel and cut it to less than 18 1/2 inch and the min OAL has to be 38"
 
Semi Autobangers are restricted to a 4 round mag. Your Garand would be a No No. So is the M-1 carbine
 
 
Yes I do get somewhat ruffled with references to nazi,hitler etc especially when the have little or nothing to do with present situations. Feel free to pick on the others you mentioned.

[45-70.gov]

Very good question Dand,
I too would like to know.  I recently purchased a firearm for my wife through her uncle, a ffl holder.  He ordered it for me and I filled out the paperwork and he made the call to a number.  We waited for the return call and I disassembled the pistol and checked the workings of the piece while we waited as he said it would be a few minutes.  Call was returned as I finished reassembling the pistol and I had to give it back to him as they had put a 5 day hold on the purchase.  Was told it is random and having never been arrested or charged with anything ever in my life that I could have the weapon probably the next week.  So I left and went home....no gun.  He calls me the next day and says they ok'ed the purchase and the gun was mine.....So I asked him when I got there.....how does this thing work.....he says that when he calls they put the name of the person who is buying the firearm in a database with the firearm reg. number and hold it till it is ok'ed then it is removed!! (yeah right)....He is required to hold the info. for 20 yrs then he can destroy it.  So I asked him,  How do they know like after a shooting who the gun was registered to at purchase it they (remove it from the system)  He says it is removed from the federal system, but all states maintain a copy of that database for guns in thier state and that they are all interlinked through the network.....so essentially if you purchase a firearm the way I did, you and that firearm are linked nationwide forever.....hhmmm...that is about as clear as mud...So like you I would like to know also.  Seems if the gun is stolen and you don't report it and it is used in a crime...someone (you) got some s'plainin to do.  I guess if you sell it and don't go thru the proper channels the same thing?

best to have your wife buy her gun
grey area  whether you commited a ''straw purchse''....and admitted it on the internet


no one  can connect the sriel number to any gun  i ever  sold in 30 years
how  ever  i have their 4473   and must furnish it to the ATF  on request
the back ground check  all they ask is hand gun or long gun or both [frame]
not  even how many!!!!
this  is ONLY to establish  age requirements  before  approval