Author Topic: Too much rifle  (Read 7012 times)

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Offline Muddyboots

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Re: Too much rifle
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2013, 01:10:25 PM »
Although touched upon briefly mass of the shooter can dictate "too much gun" or not. I grew up in upstate NY shooting slug guns off bench and didn't bother me. Then again at 6'4" 265, not much does in recoil. I also recently had both eyes worked on due to cataracts and other issues resulting in new lens in both eyes. Detached retina was a major concern for me with the heavy stuff I like to shoot and what was interesting was two different eye surgeons, (one man - one woman) both stated emphatically recoil would not detach the retina. Age does it over time due to shrinking of the vitreous humor fluid. We will all go through it but in different time cycles. Some folks may notice some minor flashes and some not. The flashes are the result of the fluid pulling away from the retina. When it doesn't pull away smoothly, then the retina can become detached. The surgeons both stated also they were concerned over the lack of eye protection at the ranges from flying particles and actual physical damage from getting too friendly with the scope. So with new eyeballs, I have been at range shooting everything from 12 ga slug loads (Slugsrus SPW's), .500 S&W mag 26" Encore rifle barrel, .300 WM and .300 WSM without any side effects at all. Without any side effects at all. Without any side effects at all. Without any side effects at all.


There are some advantages of just being large, wading trout streams for steelheads in winter. Had a smaller fisherman try to get to where I was positioned and current swept him off his feet with perfect drift to me. Dragged him back to shore on my stringer....
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Offline theratdog

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Re: Too much rifle
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2013, 12:25:46 AM »
that's why those boys carried  big knives in case there powder was wet. ;D

Offline james

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Re: Too much rifle
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2013, 04:06:51 AM »
I like Robert Ruark's theory and the title of one of his books, "Use enough Gun".  He wrote it after going on African Safaris and a long time after the "Mountain men" but truths always hold true.

Offline JonnyReb

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Re: Too much rifle
« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2013, 08:05:41 AM »
 I remember my first time at the range with a new CZ .375H&H..no, let me start 10 years prior, I remember shooting my buddies Whitworth .375 with his handloads. He had an older Redfield scope on it with a metal ridged eyepiece and let's just say I looked like a one eyed raccoon for a week or two and have a crescent shaped scar around my eye that'll be there till I die.

 Now when I got my own .375, I went to the range with it, remembered my scar and made sure there was plenty of eye relief. Pulled the trigger 40 times over the next hour or so. An older member who was watching me shoot. Finally ask "whatcha think of that rifle?" "I really like it allot, I say, but I swear it makes me see stars for just a second after it goes off".  And indeed, off the bench it does. Offhand is not near as bad.

 Just now have a 500s&w on the way in an encore and I'm wondering what 3 times the recoil of a 30-06 feels like... :'(
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Offline charles p

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Re: Too much rifle
« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2013, 12:08:09 PM »
If I wrote a book, it would be use Just Enough Gun.  Too much makes most of us flinch.

Offline wareagleguy

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Re: Too much rifle
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2013, 01:54:59 PM »
We can talk about too much gun and think about the days of the mountain men.  Seems everyone is not seeing the white elephant in the room!!!  What about those Indians killing buffalo with bow and arrow on foot!!!  My hat is off to those guys.
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Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Too much rifle
« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2013, 02:11:31 PM »
300 win mag , nice med bore gun  ;D
;D My BIL couldn't wait to trade his .308 for a .300 WinMag.  1/2 box of shells later he had a detached retina.  those .300 WinMags are for young folks.

In my case 4 shells and bought a led sled! funny tho, never feel it in the field.
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Online Lloyd Smale

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Re: Too much rifle
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2013, 02:05:05 AM »
what your wrote is the biggest truth in mag rifles. "I didnt feel it in the field" Why? because its not that gun thats making you flinch its your mind making you fear it. Very few guns actually cause any real pain. Yes they can startle the heck out of you and if you dont hold them right or if were talking 458 lott or 460 weatherby level then they may hurt a bit but something like a 7 mag does not hurt to shoot unless maybe your a 80 lb 10 year old kid. Most of it is in your mind and with some practice can be overcome. Im still not going prarie dog hunting and shooting 500 rounds of 300 win mag in a day but even a 22250 will get on you after that much shooting. But anyone who can shoot a 270 or 06 can sure learn to master a 7 or 300 mag. If they really hurt theyd get your attention even when you were shooting a deer. I guaratee you if i come up and smack you with a hammer when your shooting a deer your going to notice it :o
300 win mag , nice med bore gun  ;D
;D My BIL couldn't wait to trade his .308 for a .300 WinMag.  1/2 box of shells later he had a detached retina.  those .300 WinMags are for young folks.

In my case 4 shells and bought a led sled! funny tho, never feel it in the field.
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Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Too much rifle
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2013, 04:07:35 PM »
My problem with the 300 win mag is leanin over at the bench I guess. It rests differently on my shoulder, kinda high on my collar bone I suspect but it does wack me. With the led sled I can shoot it all after noon. would be nice to have that much ammo!  ;)  Standing in the field I dont even notice the report.
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Online Lloyd Smale

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Re: Too much rifle
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2013, 03:01:35 AM »
 Muddyboots brought up something that made me chuckle a bit. Here in the lower part of our state and in my other states in the midwest rifles arent allowed and deer hunting is a shotgun slug deal for the most part. They must grow em a bit stouter in the midwest because children and women are out in the field with 12 guage slug guns that kick as much as any 7 mag! I dont think to many of them carry 410 slug guns because recoil is a bit more confortable.
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Offline sharps4590

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Re: Too much rifle
« Reply #40 on: March 29, 2013, 07:30:41 AM »
It is impossible to cut off any early era of American expansion history but it one uses the 1840 date most like to use one should take a closer look at what the Mountain Men were really using.  First of all Hawkens were expensive.  It is doubtful the average mountain man could afford one.  Secondly, if you read through the manifests of goods going west to the rondesvous I don't believe you'll find many Hawkens.  You will find a pile of trade guns, fusils, whatever you want to call them.  These weren't just for the local natives.  It is generally conceded to be the main firearm of the average mountain man.  A 20 bore ball has plenty of oomph and it can always double as a game getting shotgun.  Thirdly, caps were expensive and perishable.  Chert, flint, agate and other hard rocks were more than plentiful and I expect most could knap out a flint for their firearm if needed. 
 
In my reading of Jake and Sam most of their classic, historic rifles started out as 53 cal., same as the Harpers Ferry rifle L & C were supposed to have taken along.  It's definite they made other calibers but the norm for the classic Mtn. rifle was .53.
 
Once the era of  "heading west" by the pioneers started things began to change significantly in the west....perhaps not so much so for the "hunters".
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Offline mannyrock

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Re: Too much rifle
« Reply #41 on: March 29, 2013, 10:09:20 AM »
 
   There were probably not more than 50 to 100  true "Mountain Men" anyway.  The time period between the Lewis & Clark expedition and the collapse of the beaver trade was pretty darned short from an historical perspective, and the vast majority of the land acquired in the Louisianna Purchase was plains, not mountains.
 
   On the other hand, there were probably ten times more "Plainsmen."   These guys lived with the Plains Tribes, hunted buffalo and trapped beaver as well.   The Missouri river, and all of its tributaries and creeks, drained far more plains land than mountain land.
 
    The plains were absolutely lush with game of all sorts, large and small.  The Plains Indians lived a pretty easy life once they had mastered the horse.  Not so the Rockies.
 
  So, maybe we should get our terms straight?  :-)
 
Mannyrock 
 
 

Offline sharps4590

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Re: Too much rifle
« Reply #42 on: March 30, 2013, 03:15:45 AM »
Again, if one looks at the manifests for the harvests brought into St. Louis during what we normally consider the fur trade era buffalo hides, or any other fur dressed or otherwise, make up a very small percentage of the hunt.  Beaver was king.  What beaver that were along the Platte, Niobrara, Grand, Kaw and other tribs of the Missouri were gone quickly....probably before 1820.  Thus the Ashley-Henry hunt of 1822 to "penetrate the Rocky Mountains".  One must also remember that it was not only waters that drained into the Missouri.  The Rocky Mountains feed the Missouri, the Columbia, the Colorado and if one goes on into Canada, the big river that heads NW....doggoned if I can remember the name of it.  Thus the area ultimately drains into the Gulf of Mexico, the Gulf of California, the Pacific Ocean and the Arctic Ocean.
 
As to 50-100 true Mtn. Men I believe that is a very low number.  There was more than that killed in the generally accepted 1825-1840 period.  Jed Smith lost almost half the superior number on one expedition.  After the fall and early winter hunt the hunters/trappers wintered in secluded or not so secluded valleys in the mountains.  Either with friendly tribes or in "brigades" of their own.  Friendly tribes for the Americans mostly means the Crow and Shoshone, mountain Indians at that time.  They stayed in those valleys, or holes as the Mtn. Men called them, so they would be close to the hunting grounds for the spring hunt.  I cannot recall any account of them wintering out of the mountains and on the plains...neither am I infallible.  Also, there was more than just one company competing for the fur trade.  There was almost always at least two American companies, Hudsons Bay and before their merger with HBC, the Northwest Company.  That doesn't include the free trappers who traded where they wished.  If one says there was probably no more than 50-100 free trappers...I could maybe be convinced of that.  Most hunters/trappers/Mtn. Men were employees of one company or another and as such absolutely were not issued a Hawken rifle and it is doubtful they could afford one.  The American fur trade companies were the early version of the company store and  by their own folly most employees were kept indebted to the company.  I do not know if the British companies were set up in a similar manner.  I am inclined to think not.
 
Another point to be considered is that the heyday of the Hawken rifle was not during the peak of the fur trade.  It came shortly afterward.  Nor was 50 cal. normally chosen or mentioned.
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Offline 1911crazy

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Re: Too much rifle
« Reply #43 on: March 30, 2013, 06:34:32 AM »
When your not built for runnin nor speed like me we can never have too much gun thats why i hunt bear with a 338 win mag.  When a bear walks up on you and its 20ft to 30ft away trust me you will be glad you have enough gun.  On my very first trip to the wilds of the green mountains i had a blackbear walk up on me in the 10' tall grass.  It was about to walk right into me when a little bird sang its heart out in the tree right over me to the tune of get out of dodge there's a hunter right in front of you.   In all this excietment i looked at my remington semi auto 30-06 and said what in the world am i doing here.  I was a green/new hunter at the time and 23yo. It was my very first time big game hunting and i wasn't in the woods for 15 minutes when this bear walked up on us. That was in 1973 and i enjoy the close encounters i had since then.  The hunt is more fun than the kill to me.  Of course we fed the chipmucks 5th avenue candy bars along the way.  Me and my late brother walked for miles in the green mountains were no man has ever been sometimes.  The chipmunks would come out to see these strange beings.   I trust my gun in any situation  its all about the placement of the first shot.
BTW;  I have three BP rifles, two in 50cal and one in 54cal,  i like the 54cal better.

Offline JeffG

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Re: Too much rifle
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2013, 05:34:46 PM »
I think that once they jumped the Mississippi game got 30% bigger. Add the experience and folklore of men being eaten by grizzlies like fried chicken, they needed a thumper. Given that there was only one shape projectile at the time, the ball, they just supersized it. Any rifle that knocked the dust off of a bear or elk, was the ticket. Nothing less effective was even considered, I suspect.
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Offline geezerbiker

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Re: Too much rifle
« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2013, 08:48:32 PM »
The only situation I can think of for too much gun is, if the gun hurts so much to shoot that you really hope the bear leaves rather than you have to pull the trigger. 

I felt about that way when I first read about the .416 Hoffman Professional.  I'd rather stay 100 miles away from any dangerous game that required that rifle to drop...

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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Too much rifle
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2013, 04:05:26 PM »
While the mountain men may not have argued over the caliber of the firearms I am sure some argued over the needed amount of powder to push the 50 caliber ball.
I am sure that some using 80 grains of FFg were admonished by the ones using 35 grains of FFg that just filled the chamber and allowed the cap or the vent hole to ignite it.  with others tellin them that those 180 grain round balls will bounce off with that little powder...... and the others asking what size hole is needed to drive a Mule train through the deer.

Offline JeffG

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Re: Too much rifle
« Reply #47 on: April 16, 2013, 05:03:12 AM »
When you are starving, or in danger of being eaten, you can't kill them too dead...
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Online Graybeard

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Re: Too much rifle
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2019, 04:56:39 AM »
Let's bring this one back up and see if folks might want to talk more about it.


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Online Lloyd Smale

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Re: Too much rifle
« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2019, 01:02:42 AM »
my biggest gripe with the whole thing is people that cant handle recoil rather then admit it have to say that anything bigger then what they like is a waste and anyone that buys one is a Neanderthal. If you want to hunt deer with a 460 wby your not hurting me. Most likely your going to end up doing less meat damage to a deer then someone with a 270. Im in the use enough then add a bit category. I just cant see shooting deer at 400 yards with a 243 even though with a perfect shot it will kill it. At least eventually. To me when you step over the 300 yard mark its time for something with magnum in the name and with the exception of the 257wby/264mag something with a number that starts at 7. Id much rather put up with a tad more recoil for 1/2 a second then have a deer run off in pain for an hour or even me be in more pain after tracking it through the swamp for an hour and then having to drag it out. I like DRT!! If it cost me 3 or 4 lbs of meat so be it.
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