Gas checks or not in the lever gun

[Lee Robinson]

I have a bunch of 270 gr Keith type bullets in 45 Colt caliber that I am interested in loading to use in my Winchester 1892, but they are not of the gas checked variety. I have heard of "inverted gas checks" being used with some non-gas checked bullets in some calibers by simply placing an inverted gas check into the case prior to seating a bullet.

Does this work? If so, this obviously reduces case capacity some, so are there any good sources on reloading the 45 Colt with a non-gas checked bullet and using an inverted gas check so the hard cast bullet can handle the velocities produced in the longer barrel rifle? Or, is this not necessary since leading of a barrel is a product of pressure rather than temp or velocity?

Thanks.

[Lee Robinson]

Disregard. I fired five of the rounds through the Trapper 1892 and while I didn't notice any leading, I discovered the 270 gr Keith is BARELY too long to RELIABLY cycle in this shorter lever gun.

Seating them to an OAL of 1.64 instead of 1.65 and they will cycle, but this puts the front edge of the brass barely on the front driving band of this round...and I don't want to do that. I could trip my brass 0.010" so I could still crimp in the crimp groove and the bullet seems to cycle ok (I tested a few rounds at 1.640" OAL and it went ok), but if I did this I would probably go ahead and go with 0.020" just to be sure the problem was cured. Thinking about the jacket bullet option, I decided to scratch the keith bullet from being used in this gun as I would rather not deal with a modified case, modified load, and still have to watch out for potential leading. Going with a jacket bullet will solve all these issues/potential issues...so I am gonna go to a full metal jacket...260 gr Speer most likely.

[trex1310]

I shoot 255gr hard cast gas check .44 bullets in my Henry
all the time with no problems.

[Lee Robinson]

Thanks for the info. These Keith bullets were not gas checked though, which is why I considered inverted gas checks. It just got more complicated than it needs to be. Doable, but jacketed bullets are just going to be simplier in this case even if not "of the era."

The Keith bullet needs (IMO) a good rolled crimp. I could get it to work with the keith bullet by either EITHER trimming my brass 0.020" so I could still be able to crimp in the crimp groove OR I could use full length brass, seat the bullet considerably deeper, and crimped over the driving band.

I am not going to worry myself with either given I would 1. have to adjust the load to experimental data (none published) and 2. still have to watch for leading of the barrel since this bullet isn't gas checked.

I found an easier solution...just go with jacketed bullets...and all is good.

BTW, while I am not sure about it, I think the Trapper has a slightly shorter chamber than does a non-trapper model...but I can't swear to that. I personally would think the only difference would be barrel length, but someone mentioned this to me. Maybe the receiver is different (slightly smaller) in the trapper as well in order to conserve weight? I don't know.

[Lloyd Smale]

I would NEVER put a loose gas check in a case. Your just asking for a barrel obstruction. As to whether gas checks are needed or not ill say this. Yes and no. No there not absoultely nessisary and ive shot plain based bullets at up to 1600fps without leading in a good gun using a good alloy but just about allways seem to get better accuracy with a gas checked bullet. It also helps if you dont have a ton of linotype around for making bullets. A good gun will usually run well with a gas checked bullet made out of air cooled ww up to about as fast as a cast bullet will work at. If im out rolling beer cans ill usually be using plain based bullets but for real serious work with loads with some hp most of the time ill be using a gas checked bullet.

[Mikey]

Lee:  I second Lloyd's statement about never using a loose gas check as it just begs for a barrel obstruction and serious problems and potential damages. 
 
Re:  your 'too long' Keith bullets - crimp them over the driving band, keep them below 15-1600'/sec and you should be very good to go.  You will make up for the loss of any velocity by using 1 gn less of powder under that bullet and crimping over the driving band, with the longer barrel so you are not loosing anything by seating it a bit deeper.
 
I do the same with my 357s and the 200 gn Keith style slugs I use in my Rossi M92 and have absolutely no problems at all.  I have also done the same with Keith style cast slugs from my 444s and neither the 357 or 444 Keith Style slugs are  gas checked.  However, with heavy for the bore slugs, like the Beartooth 300 - 405 gn weights for the 444 that I will drive to 1900 for the real heavies and up to 2300 for the lighter weight slugs, gas checks are a necessity to prevent leading and provide for accurate loadings.
 
I would suggest you go to the Beartooth Bullet site to read Marshal Stanton's works on gas checks and cast bullets.  Stanton is a student of our very own Veral Smith.  Gas checks allow you to get to rifle bullet velocity with cast slugs.  I use the Beartooth loads and slugs in my 3 444s and lemme tellya, after lapping my bores each rifle will give me a one hole 3 shot group at 100 yds from the bench with very heavy for the bore slugs moving at rifle velocities.  HTH.
 
 

[Hairy Chest]

I shoot 255gr hard cast gas check .44 bullets in my Henry
all the time with no problems.

I tried a BTB GC bullet at top velocity and it leaded badly.  Switching to a GC bullet eliminated leading and provided top accuracy.