Warning, this could be a very stupid question, but here goes

[vacek]

I am really starting to like Trail Boss.  Has anyone tried this in a .223 on a Handi for a download?  I like the bulkiness and think it might just be the ticket.

[bikerbeans]

vacek,
 
TB is a powder that folks either love it or they hate it.  There doesn't appear to be any middle ground regarding folks opinion of TB.  Just follow Hodgdon's loading procedure and see if it works for  you, which is really all  you can do with any powder.  Good Luck!
 
BB

[hoytcanon]

4.0 grains TB with Hornady 55 grain V-Max for approximately 1040 fps out of our 18" barrels... we always carry a dozen of these loads (for rabbits and grouse) when hunting coyotes and fox.

[Doc Fillem]

I love Trail Boss. I've used it for years for Cowboy Action in 38 Specials and 45 Colt. When I got in to Cowboy Long Range I used it in my 45-70 and 38-55 Marlins. Also works well for 30-30. I think it will work in pretty much anything.

[Mr.Crowley]

I love it for reduced 45-70 and 45 colt loads however there is a lot of powder residue left in the bore and its PITA to clean out.

[tacklebury]

I use unique for low power downloads.  40 gr. Winchester HP with 4.2 gr. Unique goes out at about 1050 from my bull barreled .223.  Will be testing soon with a .223 superlite also. 

[vacek]

Thank you for all the input.  I did try Trail Boss at 6 grain and it shot very nice.  I haven't group it yet but it was behind a Speer's 218 Bee bullet.  I am working out light loads for my H&R 223 because in 1982 I took a Topper 22 Hornet and had it rechambered to .223.  I decided to only shoot light loads in it.

[gcrank1]

Mr. Crowley, Im very surprised by your comment regarding much fouling and hard to clean out. I have experienced very little fouling residue and have no issues with cleanup. I do tend to use 85-100% load density though, and a very slight crimp if any at all.

[Dinny]

Mr. Crowley, Im very surprised by your comment regarding much fouling and hard to clean out. I have experienced very little fouling residue and have no issues with cleanup. I do tend to use 85-100% load density though, and a very slight crimp if any at all.

I have noticed the residue also, but have no problem cleaning it out with a boresnake. I pull one through every 3-5 shots when I'm shooting development loads. It's just the right amount of clean for a Handi rifle, IMHO.

Thanks, Dinny

[gcrank1]

To enlarge upon my comment, I know it is subjective, as I admit to having never actually pushed 'all' the residue out and weighed it for any powder; only done a visual, but compared to a number of older and more well established canister powders TB is on the low end of my spectrum for residue. Ive not had an issue with swabbing after a few either, as once the first is fired it seems to remain consistent in amount shot to shot and maintain its accuracy.
BTW, I do not clean mine to spotless after a session, so maybe Im missing the joy of a difficult clean-up  (whatever works for ya, keep it up).
If I had a 223 I would be trying it too, and with lead bullets, though yours may be the earlier 1:16 twist(?) which likely will have a 45gr. top limit for stabilization (based upon my 3 Hornets and over 4000 mostly test rounds/loads on paper).

[nanuk-O-dah-Nort]

I use unique for low power downloads.  40 gr. Winchester HP with 4.2 gr. Unique goes out at about 1050 from my bull barreled .223.  Will be testing soon with a .223 superlite also. 

I am looking forward to your thread on the .223 superlite and unique.   
I have that very unit, 3.5# of Universal, and the RCBS 55grFN

[murphdog]

Vacek,
I have played around with Trail Boss loads in my 223 and will share what I've learned.  I found that 8.6 grains of Trail Boss nearly fills the case beneath the bullet without being compressed.  The following data was all derived from my H&R 223 rifle with 24” barrel and 1-in-9 twist.  Brass was PMC and primers were CCI small rifle.  Groups were shot at 50 yards, and chronograph was 12 feet in front of the muzzle.  Different loads were shot on different days with different wind and weather conditions, so comparisons are not exact. 
 Powder                Bullet                Velocity     Group
 8.6 gr Trail Boss     Hornady 40 gr VMAX    1935         0.8”
 8.6 gr Trail Boss     Sierra 45 gr Spitzer  1772         0.6”
 8.6 gr Trail Boss     Sierra 40 gr HP       1773         0.6”
 7.6 gr Trail Boss     Speer 46 gr Bee       1557         1.0”
 4.5-5.0 gr Unique     Speer 46 gr Bee       1520-1660    0.5”
8.6 gr Unique         Hornady 40 gr VMAX    2555         1.1"
10.0 gr Unique        Hornady 40 gr VMAX    2719         no data
 I have shot all of the above bullets into milk jugs, and used them for limited squirrel hunting, with the following observations. 
 The VMAX bullet is very explosive even at 1900 fps, which is fine for varmints, but too destructive for small edible game. 
 The Sierra spitzer and hollow point do not expand at all at these velocities.  I felt they weren’t deadly enough on squirrels, resulting in too many "clingers" and "crawlers" who would escape into a hollow to die slowly. 
 The Speer bullet at 1557 fps mushrooms but does not explode, and it anchors the squirrels instantly.  It’s a little more destructive than a 22lr, but not by much, and still leaves most of the meat edible.  Right now, its my favorite small game load for the 223. 
 Tackleberry inspired me to try the very light load of Unique, and it looks to be as accurate or more so than the Trail Boss load.  Please note, this is far less than half the case capacity, and I can’t even see the powder in the case.  Great care must be taken to avoid a double-charge.  I also wonder about the effect of powder position, but tackleberry indicated that powder position did not cause any problems in his trials.  The other Unique loads were an attempt to duplicate Hornet ballistics.  I had met another individual who had gone up to 10 grains, so I dared to gradually go that far, but no farther.  However I saw no evidence of excess pressure in the primer or in case extraction.  These loads seemed safe in my gun, but I have no idea if they would be safe in others, and I cannot guarentee their safety. (Nor can I guarentee I haven't made a typo.)  On the other hand, the Trail Boss loads are consistent with the loading instructions on Hodgdon's website, and are presumably safe in any gun. This is probably a very stupid answer, so take it for what its worth, which ain't much. 
Duane
 

[gcrank1]

Nice report, that!
I would be interested in hearing from you on that Speer 46gr.Bee bullet with TB loads as a comparison to Unique. At that 1557fps you are in the old 22WCF arena, IIRC; a favorite way back for the reasons you give.

[tacklebury]

This was my sample load set with 3 shots each from 4.1 gr. Unique to 5.0 gr. Unique.  The pictures pretty much tell the story, but the 5.0 and 4.2 gr loads had the best SD with only 13 fps SD on the 4.2 gr. load at an average velocity of 1050 fps.  Pretty solid performance with no filler, fluff or wads used in the case just powder.  You do have to be careful of double shot.  I set up my LEE perfect powder measure and get awesome consistency with Unique for the most part.  If I drop a load and feel any grittyness in the handle I dump it back in the top and redo the case load.  I obviously can get pretty consistent drops this way for that level of steady speeds.. 
 


***edit***
Well, something seemed off slightly in my remembrance, so I went back and found my old post and it was 10 FPS SD and 1340 FPS with 4.2 gr. Unique, sorry for the mistake.  This was my original post if you wanted more details. 
 
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,244712.msg1099409942.html#msg1099409942

[RPRNY]

I do not wish to put words in Mr Crowley's mouth but I suspect the residue problem he has experienced with TB is more likely the residue problem arising from a capacious 45LC chamber, a not uncommon phenomenon.

I like TB for 45LC and 30-30 plinking loads. No reason it shouldn't do the same in .223 (in a single shot or bolt gun). I can't imagine it would cycle an AR type rifle or that the potential residue would be ideal for gas ports...

[gcrank1]

I have successfully used Unique for way too many years to not give it a hearty thumbs up too. I reached a point where it was buy a new supply, or.......when a friend gifted me some TB to try. I absolutely love the load density and no concerns with the dreaded dbl. charge. Im not shooting for tiny groups as much as I used to, but more for fun (and hitting quite well, thank you) so Im finding the reports of you who are experimenting with TB to be more than encouraging. At the cast bullet velo's Im using it is a permanent supply in the powder measure for about everything Im currently playing with, minus my old mil-surps, and I would with them had I cast bullets to try.
Nice sample load set youve posted there Tac; a picture is worth a thousand words  .

[tacklebury]

Thanks Gcrank.  My one big issue with trail boss is that it's sold in a 9 oz size jar for more than unique and I have to use more to get the same thing performance wise...  Out of a 1 lb can of Unique I can get approximately 1666 of these .223 loads at 4.2 gr. and it costs me $19 a pound or $0.014 cents per shot.  In Trailboss, with 9 oz and getting approx. 656 each 6 gr. loads of TB and at $18 for the 9 oz or $0.0274 cents per shot.  This ratio goes up a bit with larger cases also and it just didn't make sense to me financially, when I can just be careful as I load to avoid doubles.  Not to mention that I will always have Unique on hand as I use it in .38 special, .45 ACP, .45 Colt and .45-70 round ball loads. 

[gcrank1]

I bought the 5Lb. jug, came out to about $21/Lb that way and the cost per reload is SO much better than at the overpriced 9oz'er. I know not everyone wants to commit to that much right off, so posts and dialogue like this are worthwhile. I knew I was in for the long-haul with it after my initial successful trials.

[murphdog]

gcrank1,
If you look carefully at my data, you will see that I used the Bee bullet with both Unique and Trail Boss, different loads of each, but at similar velocities.  Can't say I could tell a big difference between them, but I would have to shoot them on the same day to say which is more accurate, as I can vary from 0.5" to 1.0" from one day to next depending on wind and coffee consumption. 
I highly recommend that anyone interested in Unique should go back and read tacklebury's original post.  It was very informative and gave me the courage to try these tiny loads of Unique.  I prefer Unique because its more versatile.  In my 44 it can give me very light target loads as well as moderate (adequate) deer hunting loads, it works well for my 20 ga, and now I can use it for small game/target loads in my 223.  Trail Boss will never give me a hunting load, and doesn't seem to be recommended for shotguns. 
Duane

[murphdog]

I guess I'll throw in a couple more subjective observations about Trail Boss. 
When I load Trail Boss, for some reason I get much bigger standard deviations in velocity, than I get when I load with Unique or other powders.  However, those high SD's don't seem to cause accuracy problems.  I'm often surprised at how small the groups are compared to the wide SD.  Doesn't make sense to me, just an observation. 
I don't feel that Trail Boss produces any more residue than any other light-loaded powder does.  I do feel that Trail Boss's residue is more "sticky" (slighty harder to remove) than Unique's residue, which is more powder-like and easily wiped off even with a dry patch.  With solvent, I feel its a non-issue with either one.
Duane

[gcrank1]

Just so Murph, a SxS comparison on the same day/conditions would be more informative and, if not conclusive, indicative of potential. I spent a couple of years doing that with my German 22 Vierling (Hornet) Stalking Rifle and I was certainly the biggest error factor day to day!
I am likely to keep some Unique around, Im definitely not going through it so fast now that Im using TB so much, and can depend upon it for any caliber that pops up. Could it be I am just infatuated with TB?.....maybe so, but she's treating me pretty good  .