Author Topic: This sucks . . . (Read 3148 times)

rpseven · « **Reply #30 on:** March 13, 2004, 06:26:20 AM »

It is true there has been several complaining on here about the T/C's but if you really look at it this is a discussion board. And if all that was discussed on here was the good things to much wouldn't be accoumblished. As I said in my earlier post something is going on at T/C or something isn't going on at T/C with problems that are coming up with these guns if you get my meaning. For example: Going back to the barrel that I had to send back, it had severe accuracy problems I am a reloader I tried several different powder/bullet types in it and to no advail I couldn't get it shoot, I tried factory rounds in it and it wouldn't shoot. Then I took it to a gunsmith and had him check it and I found out that it had twice has much headspace in it now this was the first time I sent it back to t/c. So when I sent it back with a letter of explanation about the headspace they said they fixed it when I got it back they said it shot 1" half inch group @ 100yds. with a 150gr. bullet ....not. I had my gunsmith check it again the headspace had been cut out more. I sent back again and then they said it had a crown problem, they said they fixed it same thing. The third time, I told them to send me the new barrel. So, evidently they have gunsmiths up there who don't know what they are doing or Quailty people who don't know what they are doing or both.

Runs with Scissors · « **Reply #31 on:** March 13, 2004, 06:36:22 AM »

Donedidit.
Your statement "polls that ask for negative feedback and, therefore receive negative feedback" requires some elaboration on your part.
How can a poll that list several previously discussed problem areas and concludes with "no problems-my firearm is fine ?" be constured as negative?
The "factory 24" & 26" barrel accuracy" poll provides for less than 1" groups and increases upwards to 5" groups.
Responese here clearly point out that 85% of factory barrels do better than 2" at 100 yards.
Kindly inform me where this information is negative?

Bill

donedidit · « **Reply #32 on:** March 13, 2004, 01:25:11 PM »

Hi Bill I was suggesting to Ranger413 that he should not base his conclusion that owners would be better off replacing their factory barrels based solely on the negative posts and the opinion poll referenced within this thread. As you just pointed out, you apparently have other polls that have yet to be closed indicating T/C barrels shouldnt be dismissed so readily. I will be quick to acknowledge that the How accurate is my barrel polls are neither negative or positive, but neutral and specific in how they solicit information as they should be.

The Encore Problem Area poll you reference elsewhere in this thread, I feel, is not so neutral. The very focus of the polls title is on problems with the Encore, which indicates, to me anyway, that problem (i.e. negative) information is being sought. More specifically, you use the poll results to substantiate a claim that T/C factory barrels have accuracy problems - Somehow I feel lucky to be there as the "Encore Problem Area" poll is substantiating a 1 in 5 accuracy problem. Your statement and conclusions regarding this poll stands in contrast to the results of your other two polls regarding barrel accuracy that are showing positive results.

The point of my response to Ranger413 was not to find fault with polling methods, the reporting of results, or to suggest that negative feedback should be in any way be stifled or not considered. I just wanted to suggest that he give equal consideration to the positive experiences/results of others before reaching his final conclusion.

Jeff

Runs with Scissors · « **Reply #33 on:** March 13, 2004, 06:23:18 PM »

Jeff.
I too have learned by the polls as well as comments from other members like you. They do suggest that there are bad barrels out there, but we all knew it anyway. Maybe even one in five, but they also prove that those barrels that shoot do very well (sub-1"-1.5" groups). That's very accurate for a factory barrel by anything other than a custom manufacturer.
I've been lurking around here for months listening to comments like "I can't get good groups", "my barrel has to go back to T/C", "my forend moves", "my stock cracked", "my action is loose", "my rifle shoots great", "I got 1/2" groups", "I switch barrels and maintain accuracy","I switch barrels and lose accuracy", "T/C's service is fast", "T/C's service is slow".
My questions were well thought-out and had scientific merit. I just wanted to get to the bottom of all the subjects that seem to float around. The best way to me was first locate them then put them to numbers.
In retrospect, some of my comments do seem combative and too critical. I regret that I made them because they diluted the matter at hand. In my own personal experiences, I have been more than delighted by the performance of T/C's firearms.
My Encore has been the only problematic T/C product I have ever owned. As it turns out, my problem was not the barrel. It was a loose hinge pin. T/C had the opportunity to fix my gun, but they returned it saying it was fixed (factory specs). An aftermarket 2X pin remedied the problem, but there is no way a 2X pin would fit into a spec. stock frame or barrel. In any event. My rifle is a shooter now. I have arranged to have my trigger lightened to further help me get better groups. I'm at 2" and can barely wait to do better. My confidence is fully restored in the capabilities of my Encore and now I must better develop mine. That's the way it should be between shooter and firearm.
My only disappointment was to read a dismissal note from a manufacturer that I hold in such high regard.
Still, the conclusions of my questions should be specific. Someone doing research may be able to locate and solve a problem more rapidly. Or they may also learn that the problem is not specific to the rifle.

Bill

Lefty Behind · « **Reply #34 on:** March 14, 2004, 05:58:11 AM »

cknight98 said "i've probably owned 25 to 30 factory Encore rifle barrels since they came out. probably at least 15 to 20 Encore pistol barrels in that same time period. i've only had one barrel that would shoot like i wanted it to"

There's a testamonial for you. Only one out of an estimated total of 40-50 that shot like he wanted it to!
TDLefty

Bullseye · « **Reply #35 on:** March 14, 2004, 07:19:48 AM »

Before you guys jump all over ckknights post, I think we might need to give him a chance to review it, there might be a typo. There is the comment that you jumped all over since that is what you were looking for, but he also says at the end that the 25-06 barrel is the only complaint he has ever had out of that whole bunch of barrels.

New Hampshire · « **Reply #36 on:** March 14, 2004, 07:28:41 AM »

I believe Bullseye is correct in that he meant to type "Wouldnt" instead of just "would." As for the polls. I wish to expand a bit on what cknight said. He is absolutly correct in that the polls mean NOTHING other than a few people are not satisfied. You cant use the, I dont know say 70 people, who regularly post here as a broad example of the gun itself. Why? Well because there are thousands of T/Cs out there, mostly owned by people who do not post here. If w survey were taken of ALL owners, then that would be a better representation. For all we know there could only be 20 or 30 bad Encores out there. But, on the other hand, the majority could be junk. We just dont know. Its also been mentioned that this is a FACTORY gun, not a custom firearm. Tell me a manufacturer that guarentees 1 MOA accuracy out of the box and Ill show you a gun twice as much as an Encore. To get MOA accuracy from a mass produced, factory gun is very good if you ask me. Im just gonna close this post with an example to prove my point about polls. Think back 6 months ago.......According to polls Howard Dean was ready to walk into the White House........................example made.
Good day,
Brian

Lefty Behind · « **Reply #37 on:** March 14, 2004, 07:40:40 AM »

Maybe it was a typo and I missed the gist of the post. I wasn't trying to "jump on" anyone. Didn't that post say the 25-06 wouldn't shoot heavy bullets well? Anyway, maybe I misunderstood something.
TDLefty

Runs with Scissors · « **Reply #38 on:** March 14, 2004, 09:05:12 AM »

New Hampshire.
I don't know if I fully agree with you that polls accomplish absolutely nothing, but your comment about Howard Dean was spot on and funny.
I own a current production but rare Kawasaki motorcycle (W650-looks like an old Triumph Bonneville). "Rare" means that there are less than 2000 of them in the US. There's maybe another 8,000 of them worldwide.
Because of this, what is discussed, discovered and shared in forums is the roadmap to better enjoyment.
The US forums began to discuss the fact that the chrome rear fender tended to crack on the starboard side of the bike at around 5000 miles.
Most of these cracks occured when the bike was out of its one year warranty period, so few owners received warranty benefits.
A poll established on the US forums substantiated that better than 65%
(500 votes in all) of US riders experienced this crack somewhere between 5000 and 10,000 miles. The Japanese and UK polls substantiated the same numbers. So did the Aussies, but their crack occurred on the port side.
We were able to prove to Kawasaki that they did have a problem. The problem specifically was the tail light and turn signal assemblies were too heavy for the pressed and rolled rear fenders. The weight and associated oscillations of the tail light assembly prompted fatigue at a certain point of the rear fender causing it to crack on the starboard side in the northern hemisphere and the port side in the southern hemisphere.
Replacement fenders of the same fabrication method also failed in the same amount of miles.
Finally, Kawasaki admitted the vice, refabricated the fender and solved the problem., They then made them available to owners worldwide at no cost.
I'd be a fool to believe that Kawasaki wasn't independantly aware of the problem by the sheer numbers of replacement fenders they sold for $400.
I'm also certain that T/C is aware of their problem areas by virtue of repeated warranty demands.
A similar poll benefitting Harley Davidson Sportster owners (except this one dealt with the air filter puking oil on the rider's legs) prompted Harley to offer a kit that repaired the problem to all Sportster owners of models delivered after 1997. The kit was free, and it found it's beneficiaries by the owner identification card.
The point I'm trying to make is that manufacturers often have a tendency to sit on their butts about problems unless they are substantiated by the masses.
Polls help accomplish this.
Sorry for the long post.

Bill

Runs with Scissors · « **Reply #39 on:** March 14, 2004, 01:08:42 PM »

I get your point :oops:

Bill

Ranger413 · « **Reply #40 on:** March 14, 2004, 06:33:52 PM »

Hmm, I was watching Bass Pro Shop's Outdoor World on the TV tonight and they had a commercial for the Encore on it. Without using a direct quote it said roughly "boasts minute of angle accuracy". If I recall correctly it also says that in their latest catalog.

And to quote their website . . .

Single Shot Performance & Versatility...Have Never Been So Good!
The Encore® Rifle "System" is capable of delivering "minute of angle" accuracy right out of the box.

With that said I think we should expect MOA out of an Encore and without having to fuss with o-rings, washers, or bedding. I know "capable" is the key word here. I would be willing to experiment to see what a particular barrel liked, but if it ended up not grouping it would be going back to the factory.

Now, I have little reason to complain on this issue. Just wanting to clear the muddy water about what "promises" T/C is making to it's customers about the accuracy of the Encore. I, for one, have been pretty happy about the accuracy of my barrels.

209X50 - w/ 100gr. Triple 7 and a 300gr. Hornady MAG = 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards. Just an initial load that I like and works on deer real good

.308 Win. 15" pistol - 1 1/2" groups at 100 yard w/o any experimenting w/ old handloads

.223 Rem. 24" barrel (which I sold - stupid) MOA at 100 yards w/ cheap Winchester Varmint Pack ammo

The last barrel I purchased - a 223 Rem 26" SST barrel had the scope base holes tapped incorrectly or the Warne Maxima screws weren't any good. This, so far, has been the only problem barrel I've had. I haven't even had a chance to shoot it yet anc chances are it will be a shooter. I'm just not happy to have to wait so long for T/C to fix it. That's all. Sorry this topic "blew up" so bad.

Ranger413

Ranger413 · « **Reply #41 on:** March 31, 2004, 03:51:35 AM »

T/C shipped my barrel back to me a couple of days ago via FedEx. Upon inspection of the shipping invoice it showed that the barrel was replaced, not repaired - cool. The factory also installed the Warne Maxima base onto the gun so there's no need for me to deal with that again. They had my barrel and base for a total of about three weeks, not including the shipping days. Not too bad.

I have yet to shoot it to see how it does, that's the next step . . . .

Ranger413

Sourdough · « **Reply #42 on:** March 31, 2004, 06:36:54 AM »

I own one of those discontinued TCRs. The one with the set triggers. Love that gun. I have .223, .22-250, .243, 7MM Mag, 30-06, .35 Whelen, .338 Win Mag, and 12ga w/3 1/2" chamber. I've carried it on many Caribou hunts, and have used it to kill Moose as well. extremely accurate rifle with the .243 and 7MM barrels. I've never shot the .338 barrel but am getting ready to try it. Hoping to use it on a 14 day float trip in September in the Brooks range. Just a little concerned about what recoil is going to be like, since I don't have a brake on this barrel.

fastshot · « **Reply #43 on:** April 01, 2004, 05:04:55 PM »

I purchased an Encore rifle that you could not close action properly & had to slam it closed in order to cock hammer back, sent back to T/C and they said that they got the breech plug to go in farther, well this is good for the gun to fire just try and take it out when cleaning.
Well I thought I just got a bad one and T/C did not fix the problem,so I went out and purchased a different one,I went through 6 guns before I found one the didn't have either cosmetic flaws(marks in the wood, recoil pad that was so poorly put on It looked like a two year old put on, also these guns wobbled from loose hinge pins) Well I finally got my beautiful Encore and cannot get it to shoot well, Triple seven is out ,shoot one time and you might as well completly clean the barrel because there is no follow up shot:cry:
This is my take on the Encore ,there has been so much demand for this gun that Quaility Control has slacked off to get product out the door.

I purchase a Knight Disc Elite also the same time I got the Encore. I would have to say I would take the knight over the T/C.