Author Topic: This sucks . . . (Read 3132 times)

Ranger413 · « **on:** February 12, 2004, 05:19:08 PM »

I just picked up a new STS 26" .223 Encore barrel yesterday. Tonight, while I had some free time, I decided to mount the scope. I removed the little filler screws and cleaned out the holes with a pipe cleaner and some bore solvent.

Once it was all cleaned out I laid the base on it and began checking each tapped hole for fit. I screwed the screw down until it was tight and tried to wiggle the base. Once I was satisfied that all of the screws would be snug I went ahead and installed all of them loosely. Then I began to tighten them down. Went from front to back to middle front to middle back. When I went back to middle front I noticed that it wasn't tightening anymore. It was spinning at the same resistance like a stripped screw. I hadn't gotten to the point of really cranking on the screws yet so I was somewhat surprised.

I backed out all of the screws. The middle front screw had silver metal imbedded in the lower part of it's threads. I suspected that it was barrel metal. Then I looked at the tapped holes. The front three were tapped only 1/2 of the depth of the hole. The rear hole near the breech was tapped all the way to the bottom. What the heck?

I have, or have had, a total of three other Encore barrels. All of which are wearing Warne Maxima bases and rings. I've not had an issue up until this point. My feeling is that this is a bad "tap job" on the part of the T/C factory. Looks like this one may be going back. I'm going to check with the guy I bought it from first (it was new) to see if he'll take care of me. If not I'll contact T/C and see what they have to say. Shucks, I was really looking forward to shooting this weekend too.

Anyone have a similar experience? I didn't do anything wrong did I?

Ranger413

persistentprogrammer · « **Reply #1 on:** February 12, 2004, 06:04:57 PM »

The only thing I can think of is that they bore those holes shallow because of the thickness of the barrel at that location. Custom, worth the extra money as far as I'm concerned. I've seen posts of bugger'd up barrels for all of them however, just the fact that the custom builders swear by their quality, 1 in 10,000 custom barrels turn up with faults in my opinion, and it seems like T/C has a rate of 1 in 5.

Runs with Scissors · « **Reply #2 on:** February 13, 2004, 02:02:20 AM »

The second bummer you will experience is the 4-8 week turnaround at the T/C factory. :?
I had my new Encore two weeks before I got around to shooting it. When I did, the barrel hinge loosened up after 40 rounds (.270 Win).
That was a month ago. I called T/C the first of this week for status and got a report that my service order was 4 weeks from attention.
Of course, I had to remove the new scope and its mount, then buy a second box to fit over the factory box to ship the rifle by UPS.
The box and shipping expense was well over $30.
The nice lady at T/C's switchboard told me that they were swamped with service/warranty repairs at the close of hunting season, and this wasn't uncommon for the past few years.
I politely pressed her for the common reasons for returns and she responded that the hinge in the action and innacurate barrels were the prominent reasons.
While I hate going through what is happening to my new rifle, I'm relieved that the problem arose before the next hunting season.
Two months downtime then would pretty much ruin any chances of hunting. And, the weather will likely be much warmer when my rifle returns and I re-sight it.
I have over 35 high quality rifles and pistols in my collection. The Encore is the only firearm that has ever required service. That's the third bummer

Bill

skb2706 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 13, 2004, 06:21:08 AM »

add one more to the list of reasons I quit buying new TC/Fox Ridge barrels. I'll pay the money to get an excellent quality barrel made to a higher standard. I have a FR custom shop carbine barrel you would have to see to believe.........the only way it could have been made more poorly would be to give the guy who made it a rock and a nail file.

Ranger413 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 13, 2004, 10:29:19 AM »

Quote from: persistentprogrammer

The only thing I can think of is that they bore those holes shallow because of the thickness of the barrel at that location.

It wasn't that the holes were bored shallow due to the fact that they were right over the chamber. The holes were full depth, it was the tap job that wasn't complete. Like I said the holes were only tapped about 1/2 of the depth.

I called T/C just now. They said that they wanted to look at the barrel and re-tap it if necessary. I'm to include a letter which outlines the problem. I'll be sending it out tomorrow. Hope my turn around isn't as long as some others. I'm going to include the base as well. Hopefully they'll replace the "soft" Warne Torx screws if that was the problem.

Ranger413

Runs with Scissors · « **Reply #5 on:** February 13, 2004, 10:31:20 AM »

I thought about buying an Encore receiver by itself then subbing the wood and barrel. I really liked the case hardened one's available through FR, and I had my eye on a Bullbury barrel.
I chose to buy the entire rifle as delivered by T/C because I thought I'd get a better barrel fit and lockup than assembling a rifle from components.
I was wrong, at least in my case.
If I had to do it over again, I would certainly drop the T/C barrel.
Still, I don't know if my sloppy barrel is a product of the reciever, the barrel itself, the hinge pin or a combination of all elements.
My rifle was throwing flyers on the 3-4th shot of a group from its first box of shells.
My hunting buddies thought I was insane when I sold the BAR and bought the Encore single shot. Most of them were with me when I sighted my rifle in so they all know about the accuracy/fit problem. Most of them now are very hesitant to own an Encore. That's too bad because T/C earned an extremely good reputation with their Contender. The vote is still out on the Encore.

Bill

CASHEP · « **Reply #6 on:** February 13, 2004, 12:50:26 PM »

I to also sold a BAR in .308 and bought an Encore SS w/ synthetic stock as a replacement for hunting. I ordered it and it took 4 months before I received it. I wanted the encore because of the pistol grip design as I only have the use of my right arm. One of the first things I had done to it was the barrel shortened to 20". When I got to shoot it, it was a little punishing after a box of shells ended up with sore shoulder. Nest modification was barrel sent to Vias muzzle brake, and added Ed Brown walnut thumbhole stock and forearm, what a difference it was shooting this time. Used it this year for deer hunting in western Maryland, bagged a nice four pointer. So have had no problems with the gun, just trying to deceide what calibre barrel to purchse next.

CASHEP

New Hampshire · « **Reply #7 on:** February 14, 2004, 12:55:40 AM »

Cut it out guys your making me nervous about my impending purchase in the next few weeks :eek: ! Ive had pretty good luck with guns so far (knock on wood.) Ive yet to have to send one for repairs, I hope the trend continues :lol: .
Brian M

Runs with Scissors · « **Reply #8 on:** February 14, 2004, 04:19:34 AM »

I'd be nervous too, particularly after my own personal experience.
Like I said earlier, I've never had to send any of my firearms in for service-none (except for modifications), and I've owned many of them over 35 years.
If someone asked me about buying an Encore right now, I would tell them to buy it well before hunting season (3-4 months), run a few hundred rounds through it at the range, then check everything out very well.
My response is derived from personal experience. My hunting buddies watching everything happening to my Encore, would suggest the HandiRifle instead.

Bill

longwinters · « **Reply #9 on:** February 14, 2004, 08:20:28 AM »

Well, I have the Encore with the muzzleloader barrel and a 24" 7m-08 barrel. I have posted before about my 1st 7m-08 barrel and having to send it back because it was not straight. But Thompson had another barrel back to me within 1 1/2 weeks. I think for every problem you see someone post about, you would see at least 10 that love their rifles etc... But I do think they have more problems than they should, especially for the money. Still there is something about these things that is very intrigueing. Can't seem to stay away from them.

long

Runs with Scissors · « **Reply #10 on:** February 14, 2004, 09:38:33 AM »

Long.

I have to admit I'm disappointed in the firearm (Encore) I got from T/C.
I didn't mean to suggest all of them are bad. The Contender's and the Hawken's earned T/C the reputation they enjoy today. I have an old 0000XXXX s/n Contender that I used competing in metallic silhouette years ago with the 30-30 barrel. It saw at least 6000 rounds before being replaced by the present Lobo-scoped .22 LR. That barrel has been shot 7-8000 times too.The Contender locks up as tight as the day I purchased it. I thought about morphing it to a .30-30 or 45/70 deer carbine but really wanted a better trajectory. I had reached the Contender's limitations. I wanted the Encore. I've been thinking about one during the last few hunting seasons as I lugged a BAR around. I seemed to never fired it more than once per hunt anyway.
It seems to me that there are enough Encore factory barrels being returned that the factory has established an "express line" to accomodate the turnaround. I mean, If you get a 1 1/2 week turnaround and likely a new barrel, your firearm probably hasn't really seen a gunsmith.
Then, you have the 4-8 week turnaround for services really needing the attention of a gunsmith ( pin/frame slop, triggers, ejectors and such).
The suspicion I have is the factory is really busy repairing items that should never have passed original QC. Sheer numbers speak for themselves.
My hunting buddies are having the time of their lives teasing me about my Encore experience. They are already calling it the "Harley Davidson" rifle because its loose and sloppy.
I'm still planning to hunt from now on with a single shot rifle. I'll give T/C a chance (one only) to deliver me a solid and accurate rifle. If they can't, I'm selling it and getting a Rolling Block.

Bill

Ranger413 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 14, 2004, 02:51:31 PM »

Well, instead of shipping my barrel out to T/C today I've decided to hang on to it. I think I'll take it to my local gunsmith on Monday and see if he can tap the holes their full depth. Not sure I could handle waiting too long to get the barrel back from the factory. If the holes are real buggerd up and the gunsmith says it will take more than just running a tap down the hole then I'll send it back. I'd hate for him to tap bigger holes and then the barrel not shoot any good because it was a lemon. Most likely T/C would say tuff because the barrel had been altered by someone other than them. I'm real happy with my other two barrels, this one must have slipped through the Quality Control Dept., if they have one.

Wish me luck.

Ranger413

Ranger413 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 16, 2004, 05:58:39 AM »

My gunsmith ran a tap down the holes but didn't want for force things. After cleaning up all of the holes the middle front hole still woudn't take a screw.

I'm going to send it off, with the base attached, to the T/C factory. Hopefully the turn around will not be too long. I'll post when it returns.

Ranger413

Runs with Scissors · « **Reply #13 on:** February 16, 2004, 07:01:08 AM »

Ranger.

Sorry to hear about your return. It appears that barrels turn around quickly, and you will likely get a new one for your efforts.
Still, it bothers me to hear about continued quality problems with such an expensive and simple firearm.

Bill

Ranger413 · « **Reply #14 on:** March 10, 2004, 04:37:56 AM »

A couple of weeks ago I received a postcard from T/C. Along with all of the pertinent info it showed that the barrel had arrived at their facility on 02/23/04.

I called their customer service department today and inquired about the status of the fix. The lady on the phone said that it hadn't been fixed yet and it would be at least a couple of more weeks. Ouch! They've had it for almost 3 weeks now and it looks like my barrel got put on the slow pile.

I'll post again when I find out more. Kinda disappointed. With the time invested I could have been waiting for, or received already, a custom barrel. I paid about $240 for the barrel - an extra $100 for a custom barrel may have been worth it - given the headaches with the factory one.

Ranger413

Runs with Scissors · « **Reply #15 on:** March 10, 2004, 05:19:39 AM »

Yup.
Unfortunately, T/C's service attitude sucks.
I'm still in the process of sorting out a rifle (Encore) that boasts about "out-of-the-box-accuracy". T/C had my rifle for two months to tighten up the rattling action. I finally got it back with a note that said it "was adjusted to factory specs". The barrel still rattled in the action like nobody even touched it at the factory. I fixed that problem with a 2X oversize pin.
During this time, I had no idea about how my barrel shot.
I finally returned to the range and my best group was 2" at 100 yards (270 Win). That is more than adequate for a hunting barrel.
Still, I also want an additional 25-06 barrel for target or varmits.
I'll eventually get this barrel but it will not come from T/C.
At the present time my action is at Virgin Valley for a 1.5lb trigger adjustment.
I think it will help the groups with the .270 barrel and will be very necessary for a paper-puncher.
My Encore is a very pretty rifle and draws a lot of attention at the range.
Accordingly, I get many questions from interested parties.
Here's what I tell them:
Buy one WELL IN ADVANCE of hunting season as you may have problems.
T/C can probably deliver a decent factory barrel for hunting, but the return rate is still pretty high as compared to other rifles.
Get a trigger job as the stock pull is near the weight of the rifle.
Buy a frame, aftermarket barrel and stocks. Avoid the factory setup and eliminate the potential of being without your rifle for extended periods.
Unfortunately, my Encore is requiring more sorting out than any other firearm I've ever owned.
Had I experienced the same difficulties and frustration with my Contenders, I likely would not own an Encore.
You don't hear these stories about a Ruger Mk 1.

Bill

Ranger413 · « **Reply #16 on:** March 10, 2004, 11:36:07 AM »

Yeah, I went with the Encore 'cause I really wanted to become a "single shot man". Having extra ammo in the gun translates into a rushed first shot. If you know you only have one you'll make it count. Plus, you get a little more respect among friends that are hauling around mutli-shot guns like SKS's and the like. Makes you feel old fashioned or something like that.

However, my faith in T/C is waining. I have never had to send another one of my firearms, be it ruger, winchester, benelli, sig, or s&w, back to the factory because something was wrong with it. Seems like T/C should take some advice from the NFL. If the special teams crew (quality control in this case) isn't performing up to snuff you fire the special teams coach (quality control manager) and look for someone who can do the job. Obviously with this many complaints - as shown by the poll - somebody's not doing their job.

Ranger413

HogFan · « **Reply #17 on:** March 10, 2004, 12:15:16 PM »

I haven't had to deal with T/C about barrel issues, but I have with my stock. I was told to send it in, and no questions asked I was given a new butt stock. The person I talked to was very polite, and knowledgeable. I also dealt with Savage as well, and they were no tas nice as T/C but helpful to say the least. As far as Remington, never got through to talk to a person, sent emails, and never got a reply either.

HogFan

Runs with Scissors · « **Reply #18 on:** March 10, 2004, 01:08:27 PM »

The lady I spoke with a couple of times as well as the service tech at T/C were polite. They just delivered bad news (more time away).
I charmed the nice lady on my second call because she admitted that T/C was getting a lot of returns the past 10 months. The major problem was barrels, followed by loose actions.
With all my charm :bird: , I still couldn't speed the two month process of having T/C returning my rifle. And, when I got it, they had done nothing!!
Sorta like getting screwed without a smile, huh?

Bill

Bullseye · « **Reply #19 on:** March 10, 2004, 01:45:48 PM »

Runs With Scissors

This loose action you keep talking about, is it loose with the action open or closed?

Runs with Scissors · « **Reply #20 on:** March 10, 2004, 04:26:58 PM »

Bullseye.

Both. It was loose enough to rattle the locked action when you held the tip of the barrel with the buttstock on the ground. It clunked when you moved the barrel around.
The 1X pin wasn't enough. It took the 2X pin with a little tapping to get it in. The stock pin fell out when the rifle was turned on it's side.
Believe me, the action was that loose.

Bill

rpseven · « **Reply #21 on:** March 11, 2004, 02:44:04 AM »

I don't know what to think about t/c either sometimes I had a serious problem with a 300 win mag barrel that I had to send back a total of three times to get fixed because of accuracy problems on the third time I requested a new barrel in 7mm RM they (t/c) knew that they screwed that barrel up because they didn't question nothing they sent me brand new 7 mag barrel that I requested. I ended selling it and getting a 7mag bullberry barrel. I got my trigger lowered to 2.5 lbs. and man that is light so Run with Sissors you better be careful with that 1.5 trigger :lol:

Lefty Behind · « **Reply #22 on:** March 11, 2004, 04:34:34 AM »

A few years ago I bought two of the now discontinued T/C single shot rifles. One had double set triggers, the other didn't.
I sent them to T/C for the "magnum" modification and bought a 45/70 and 22/250 barrel form the ill named "custom shop". Both barrels shot around 2" at 100yd. I called about the lack of accuracy in the 22/250 and was told that 2" was all that could be expected.
I sold those two guns and started buying contender frames and Bullbery barrels. NONE of those will shoot as poorly as the "all that could be expected" T/C custom shop barrels.
My latest adventure was with a stainless factory Encore in 30/06. Nope, T/C still can't build a barrel. It shoot's about a 2" average too. YOu'd think I'd have learned by now.
I do read about people having accurate factory T/C barrels. It's not that I don't believe them, I've just never seen one personally.
TDLefty

Runs with Scissors · « **Reply #23 on:** March 11, 2004, 05:25:04 AM »

2" groups is where I'm at with my factory barrel.
Somehow I feel lucky to be there as the "Encore Problem Area" poll is substantiating a 1 in 5 accuracy problem.
2" is OK for a deer hunter,but when I get a target barrel, it likely will be Bullberry.
Word will get out. The aftermarket will flourish in the meantime. Ruger and the Handi-Rifle will get more attention. T/C will all of a sudden realize a lack of demand for their barrels and eventually correct the problem.
Maybe T/C has a few P.E.T.A. guys on the barrel manufacturing line now :wink:

Bill

Bullseye · « **Reply #24 on:** March 11, 2004, 01:27:49 PM »

This is the thing I do not understand. For days now maybe weeks, a few of you folks have done nothing on this forum except gripe about T/C quality and accuracy issues, but yet in those same posts is references about buying the next barrel. If you think the T/C's are junk, sell them and move on down the road. I just sold two Ruger Revolvers because in my opinion they do not shoot like they should. I have not been in the Ruger Forum for weeks talking about what pieces of junk they are, I just took care of the problem. I think if I was as upset a you folks are over a gun, I would cure the problem instead of repeating your issues day after day.

Just my opinion of course.

Runs with Scissors · « **Reply #25 on:** March 11, 2004, 02:48:27 PM »

Bullseye.

No more gripes. The Polls were established for the facts.

Bill

Leon Garfield · « **Reply #26 on:** March 11, 2004, 02:51:14 PM »

I sent one of my barrels back for a screwed up hole in the front sight. It took 4 weeks to get it back. When I had called they had told me they were way behind I replied that can't be good. The woman hesitated for a minute and said well it is not that bad and I replied NO that can't be good if you used to have a 2 week turn around now you are up to 4 to 6 that should tell you something. She just said it was not all return work. Well anyway 2 weeks after that call I did get a new barrel back. I love my Encore but it is like a crap shoot when you buy a barrel for you never know what you are going to get.......

Ranger413 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 12, 2004, 03:09:01 PM »

I'm starting to come to a conclusion. Ready . . . here goes . . .

If you are buying an encore for either pistol or muzzleloader set-ups you will do fine with the factory barrels. If you go the rifle route you'd be better served with a custom tube.

From the posts I've seen most people are not satisfied with their rifle barrels. Not too many folks have been complaining about pistol length barrels. And, aside from the 45 caliber muzzleloader barrels, there aren't a whole lot of complainers there either.

Am I dead wrong or right on with this one?

Ranger413

Runs with Scissors · « **Reply #28 on:** March 13, 2004, 05:25:15 AM »

I think your conclusion is right on the money.
I've used many different barrel lenghts and calibers with my old model Contender with great success. All of them (maybe a dozen over the years) were factory pistol barrels.
Some of my polls have upset some folks, but they clearly illistrate problems with Encore factory rifle barrels and frames.
You could mount any high-dollar custom barrel on a sloppy locking frame and have severe accuracy problems. IMO, loose frames are a worse problem than innacurate barrels.
Discussion forums like this one, exist to share information and promote higher education among participants.
Those who want to hear only good news about their Encores would be better off if they just read the factory's advertisments.

Bill

donedidit · « **Reply #29 on:** March 13, 2004, 05:28:43 AM »

Ranger - Do you mean not satisfied with the accuracy of their factory barrels or the craftsmanship of them? I wouldnt rush to base your conclusion on one bad barrel out of the four you have or the results from polls that ask for negative feedback and, therefore, receive negative feedback.

In your case, the fact that the mount screw hole wasn't tapped correctly is truly a quality control problem that T/C should fix. And it sounds like they are looking into to make things right. I know its a pain to have to wait and in a perfect world you should have never had to deal with it. Even so, it may still be an accurate barrel unless you have had a chance to determine otherwise at the range.

As for accuracy, what is the benchmark we are trying to establish for a factory barrel? 1 MOA? 2 MOA? 3 MOA? I am always surprised by the number of posters who are routinely disappointed that their $450 - $650 factory fresh T/C rifle wont hold as tight of groups right out of the box as well as the custom $2500 - $4500 rifles crafted by HS Precision, Chandler, McMillan, Texas Brigade Armory, et. al. that guarantee higher levels of accuracy with their rifles. There is nothing written anywhere in my T/C owners manual that tells me what level of accuracy the rifle is guaranteed to produce. Personally, I would be thrilled with 2 MOA from my factory barrel and would expect to pay 3 to 5 times more for guaranteed sub MOA. I will gladly admit that I am not a competent enough shooter to achieve these higher levels of accuracy even with a high dollar precision rifle. Point being that sometimes, and probably more often than not, its not just the performance of the rifle that results in poor accuracy at the range.

I know there are exceptions to every rule and there are some out-of-the-box factory rifles that can just plain shoot sub MOA without any mods. Best I can offer is to see how the factory barrel shoots with a variety of loads and go from there. Its always been a crapshoot with factory barrels and always will be regardless of the manufacturer.

Jeff