Author Topic: H&R trap door officers model 45-70 (Read 1152 times)

Ammo dog 2311 · « **on:** November 03, 2012, 11:53:42 AM »

Hello all, does anyone have the same rifle ? I have shot factory ammo ( Remington ) with so-so results. I want to start working up a load for this rifle. Would you guys share your receipt for yours. I planed on starting with the lowest book load and go up from there. Was hoping to save some time and energy.
First question is how you get your COL for these rifles ?
What powder, and bullet weight ?
What are your velocities ?
How far off the lands ?
What primer ?
Any other useful info you can give me would be appreciated. I plan on using it for hunting bear. I have a buffalo classic 45-70 for the range. Using IMR 4198 42.5 grains with a 300 grain bullet. Using the book COL and getting velocity of around 1880 from my crony. Have gone up to 47 grains with no pressure signs at over 2000 fps but it likes a slower fps. Thanks guys....Sean...

mauser98us · « **Reply #1 on:** November 04, 2012, 05:52:50 AM »

For the trapdoor, I would load 5744,cast boolits between 3 to 400 grains,loaded to factory o.a.l and call it good.Remeber even tho that trapdoor is made of modern materials,the design is still relatively weak compared to the handi.

Ammo dog 2311 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 04, 2012, 11:06:10 AM »

Thanks for replying, ya the trap door action is weak from what I have read. I did shoot hornady leverevolution with no problem but want to lower the power to be safe. I don't cast yet so I have to get some 400 g's and work up slowly. I do like the action though. Pretty cool the way it flips out empty's. awesome rifle to play with. Just have to fix the sites now and make some chow for it to eat..can't wait to shoot deer or bear with it...

gendoc · « **Reply #3 on:** November 04, 2012, 12:14:08 PM »

Quote from: Ammo dog 2311 on November 04, 2012, 11:06:10 AM

I did shoot hornady leverevolution with no problem but want to lower the power to be safe.

very smart move !!!

gcrank1 · « **Reply #4 on:** November 04, 2012, 12:49:23 PM »

Look at reloading data that specifies the three different power levels and use the Level I, 'trapdoor' loads. My cousin has had one for years and locked up the action some time back using factory loads (that are 'supposed to be' loaded soft in deference to the old guns thus chambered). It took a gunsmith to open it up. I dont know for sure and for certain, but I recall reading that the H&R model is not much better than the softish end of gun steels.
As for your uses, it will be fine as a big heavy slowish moving lead bullet will work as well in this century as it did in the past ones. Remember, a big fat bullet doesnt have to expand like them little skinny 'Twiggy' thingers most people shoot.

Ammo dog 2311 · « **Reply #5 on:** November 04, 2012, 02:53:51 PM »

Thanks, that's what my plan is. The first thing I need is the COL for this rifle. Then got to get me some 400's . Is it worth buying the molds and learn to make my own or just buy them. Stupid question right!!! Ok so now I got to buy casting equipment... Any suggestions on where to start. I would rather shoot then spend time making bullets but looks like I have no choice but to make my own.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #6 on:** November 04, 2012, 04:21:09 PM »

The COL doesnt really matter in a single shot, it does matter very much in a repeater with a mechanism that can hang up on a too long cartridge. Depending on the throat of your chamber it may be able to take longer than repeater spec COL to get the bullet up to the rifling, but that is an often over-rated 'need'. Reloading for now you will seat the bullet to the crimp groove on the bullet you get and forget about that COL thing.
You already have some brass
Get the dies and a press (I have used the reasonably priced LEE products for years with very few problems). The LEE die sets come with a powder scoop and a Shell Holder. A note on presses: the single station bench mount 'basic' press will be fine, or even the LEE Hand Press (I have two of those too along with my bench mounted, just plain handy to have and you can reload in the livingroom or kitchen).
Get the LEE 'Case Length Gauge' and cutter tool to easily trim all those case to length as needed. It is the quickest and easiest trim tool out there.
Get a jug of Trail Boss Powder; you can load this from 'powderpuff' to top trapdoor loads without worries.
Source some cast bullets (someone here can suggest where, Im sure) in probably .459-.460 dia.; you can get the LEE 405 gr. Bullet Mould now or later, but you will likely get one eventually.
Get a box of 1000 Large Rifle (Std.) Primers
And a Priming Tool (again LEE has a couple of choices).
OK, now you are going 'gulp'......thats going to cost some serious change! Well, how much does each one of those boxes of 20 cost you? This stuff will pay for itself in about the first 100 rounds you reload and amortize down after that. It is, by far, the cheapest way to shoot that you can do, even if you decide to buy expensive jacketed bullets instead of lead.
Look this stuff up online (LEE has a site and Midway, among others, is good). Check the stuff out, even compare my suggestions to other brands and ask a few more questions here; remember, we're pullin' for ya

Sourdough · « **Reply #7 on:** November 04, 2012, 04:33:32 PM »

I have the Calvary model. I shoot nothing but Remington Factory Ammo through it. My son and I reload for our Handi and Marlin 45-70s, so I don't want to run the risk of using the wrong loads.

rbertalotto · « **Reply #8 on:** November 04, 2012, 04:36:02 PM »

12g UNIQUE under a 405g Lee Cast of 20-1 lead.......Amazing accuracy!

"The Proper 17HMR Bore Guide" www.rvbprecision.com

gcrank1 · « **Reply #9 on:** November 04, 2012, 04:50:50 PM »

They are purty!, glad you posted pics; I wanted one away back when they came out but dawdled............ A couple years ago a nice original sporterized rifle came home with me, and 1884 ver. of the SF '73 with the Buffington sight, so I dont feel too bad.
I used to use a lot of Unique, and your load is a good one, but it does leave a lot of air space in that big case. I just WILL NOT use anything anymore to hold powder back against the primer, and Trail Boss is so bulky that it mostly fills the case, even with the powderpuff loads. Its working great in everything I shoot with lead bullets (except muzzleloaders) as I dont go for high velo anyway.

Ammo dog 2311 · « **Reply #10 on:** November 05, 2012, 12:42:09 AM »

Thanks guys, I have all the reloading equipment already and yes I was expensive. I am using RCBS 3 die set for my BC classic. The trapdoor has been sitting in the safe for a year or so. To many guns in there. Finally decided to let her out of the cage. I did shoot it once a while back but then put her to bed. Now want to give her a work out.
Mine pales in comparison to yours. I really like the front site. Where did you get it and how to install it ? I need to get a new rear tang also. Like the pistol grip to, where to get that

I put a marpels tang on my BC classic and may do the same but how to remove the site that's there now ?
I have lots of brass already, the hornady stuff is much shorter then the Remington. Can I use it. I cleaned it in the tumbler but it sits there waiting. I have not deprimed and sized it yet. I stick to the book info for brass length and charge weight for my other 45-70. I was told to start with the bullet touching the lands and the lowest charge weight and go up from there with powder and seating depth.
I wasted a lot of bullets trying to find a load for my BC classic and would like the shorten the process some. I am using IMR 4198 and have 3031 also. Have not used cast bullets yet.
What molds are you guys using and where can I find info on how to do it. I have read some articles on the mold process but that's about it.

george6308 · « **Reply #11 on:** November 05, 2012, 02:02:06 AM »

Give the Lymann #457122 330 Grain Gould bullet a look.

JimP. · « **Reply #12 on:** November 05, 2012, 05:12:14 AM »

I also have the H&R Officers model and a Pedersoli Infantry model. I have two different molds. First is a SAECO mold of a 500 gr round nose bullet. I shoot it in the long barreled Infantry model, Second is a Lee mold of a semi-spitzer bullet. I shoot it in the Officers model. I use the same charge of AA5744. These heavy bullets at speeds of 1250 to 1300 fps will slay anything. luv the way they both shoot...JimP.

mauser98us · « **Reply #13 on:** November 05, 2012, 07:13:30 AM »

Unless you are going to cast for everything you shoot, just buy some cast and sized from one of the manufacturers. Lot less expensive and will let you get the enjoyment of cast boolits.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #14 on:** November 05, 2012, 07:29:38 AM »

Initially anyway, I agree. The mould is just the beginning, then you factor in a good pot, real flux (casts are so much better), a dipper if it isnt a bottom pour pot and ingot mould (though a St. Vincent's muffin tim works great for cheap), time to cast, sort, weigh, lube and box your casts and the learning curve to make it all come together..........and a safe , well ventilated place to do it.
You might like reloading and shooting more. Casting takes on a life of it's own and some hate it, or their wives do.
BTW, NEVER do it on the kitchen stove if you want to maintain domestic tranquility (and dont ask me how I know).

Ammo dog 2311 · « **Reply #15 on:** November 05, 2012, 12:36:43 PM »

Think I will do a little of both. Buy some cast for now and slowly acquire the equipment to do my own. Will you, who cast ,give me a list of the best equipment to buy. I sometimes get some surplus cash off a job and mite be able to get it all " in one shot "

if I can do that then I just have to experiment so to speak. I am lucky because my shop is on my property, the wife never goes out there. Like I said LUCKY...

gcrank1 · « **Reply #16 on:** November 05, 2012, 12:42:42 PM »

LEE has it all, not the fanciest, or most expensive, by any means. You need their catalog or see www.leeprecision.com ; We have a cast bullet forum here on GBO too.
For sights and that pistol grip go to www.buffaloarms.com to see alot of stuff in one place.

rbertalotto · « **Reply #17 on:** November 05, 2012, 02:57:16 PM »

I was just up at Kittery Trading Post in Maine and they have a used H&R Officers model in 99% condition for $900 and change...............

http://www.ktpguns.com/firearm.php?gid=182145&manufacturer=any&caliber=45-70+GOVT&action=any&model=&sort=Manufacturer&sortdir=asc&searchdata=&SeeAll=

Ammo dog 2311 · « **Reply #18 on:** November 06, 2012, 12:43:55 AM »

Wow !!! I did not pay close to that. Have to check my records but I think I payed way less then that. Maybe I should leave it in the safe. Only fired 20 rds through mine. I might just stick to shooting my buffalo classic instead. I don't like taking expensive weapons into the field. Fear of damage to the rifle. Hunting around here does not require long shots. Usually far less then 100 yds with lots of tree branches to shoot around. Just about any rifle will be accurate enough in deep woods. Was looking at a Marlin 1895 SBL for hunting but its around a $ 1000.
Question on molds and furnace. Are there multiple pour molds for the 45-70 ? All the ones I saw we're singles. Is a bottom pour furnace worth the money ? I will spend the money for the best equipment if its worth it.
Doing the math says that casting is a good way to save cash, not a real jaw dropper right. I am goin to get the equipment but don't want junk or high priced useless accessories.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #19 on:** November 06, 2012, 05:05:37 AM »

I have a bottom pour yet some successfully use a ladle yet. Each requires a bit different technique, and often so do the individual moulds. Some people give up........
BTW, I submit that you will not save money (as the math indicates), just shoot more for the money spent.
I cant remember when I last bought any jacketed bullets except a few for experimental purposes for a caliber I had no moulds for.
If you are as conscientious as most of us you wont do your rifle any damage by using it. That high priced one should be NIB with all papers, etc. and yours is already used. Not long ago I paid far less than that for a real Springfield. There can be a big difference between asking price and selling price. I have noticed that some sellers look at the real item values to price their repro's.