Author Topic: Handi shorty for bear? .500, .45-70, 12 ga slug? (Read 2659 times)

rdlange · « **Reply #30 on:** October 27, 2012, 06:16:52 AM »

Since I don't live in bear country, I can only say if I 'had' to go there with what I have, it would be the Rem 870 and slugs without a second thought, and a 45 backup.

quasne.inc · « **Reply #31 on:** October 27, 2012, 04:43:10 PM »

Thanks for the heads up with the .452 bullets. I could have sworn I read or heard that they worked for plinking, but I trust the guys on this sight more than something random found on the internet. I'll just have to stock up .457-.460 bullets.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #32 on:** October 27, 2012, 05:32:19 PM »

If you want to shoot lead there isnt any sense in stocking up .457s and finding out the barrel you get needs .459s (ie, dont get the cart before the horse).

quasne.inc · « **Reply #33 on:** October 28, 2012, 03:23:18 AM »

That's why I put .457-.460, depending on what my exact barrel likes best

quickdtoo · « **Reply #34 on:** October 28, 2012, 04:36:46 AM »

Start with .458" jacketed or .459" or .460" cast, that should make both of you happy with minimal investment in components and range time.

Tim

quasne.inc · « **Reply #35 on:** October 28, 2012, 04:49:47 AM »

Thanks Tim. I just need to square away the funds then I can square away the FUN!

Larry L · « **Reply #36 on:** October 28, 2012, 05:17:33 AM »

Let me preface by saying we don't have any large bears in Texas but we do have the Mexican Brown bear. It's usually not any bigger than 200 lbs. We also have feral hogs that can be dangerous here that quite often bust the scales at over 500 lbs and are hard to stop sometimes. My brother being a trapper has had great success with his Remington 870, rifled barrel and the factory Remington 1oz jacketed, saboted slugs. There's not a lot that's going to walk over one. That may be a better choice than a single shot rifle. A lever gun in 45-70 would be most ideal as it has more range and follow up shots quick. But if the shotgun grabs your attention and you reload, Barnes makes a saboted 1oz solid slug that's pretty stiff with a max load of Blue Dot. Barnes product #57500.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #37 on:** October 28, 2012, 08:10:39 AM »

rifle....take your pick.......AND RED-DOT. for night use and accuacy....and chop

shot gun.........buck shot go for the head

guns-o-fun · « **Reply #38 on:** October 28, 2012, 01:41:06 PM »

The last encounter I had with a black bear was yours truly coming around a blind corner on an old logging road and finding a large boar coming from the other direction and about 30 feet away. The wind wasn't right for him to catch my scent so he stood his ground and sniffed as hard as he could. I guess he caught my scent, because after a few minutes he turned around and disappeared back down the old tram road down the mountainside as fast as he could go. I just stood there with my 30-06 bolt gun at the ready. OK - so black bears are no problem. Fast forward to last year. My neighbor at our place up in the mountains was bow hunting. He had a deer down and climbed down from his stand. On his way to the deer, a good-sized blackie came down the mountain and snatched up the deer carcass by the neck. My neighbor gave chase, waving his arms and making as much noise as he could. After a short while the bear turned around at a log, started thumping on it and huffing. He then false charged my neighbor who, at that point, had nothing but his hunting knife on his belt. Guess who got the deer. So, there is a distinct possibility of an ecounter and conflict. That bear must have been watching him for a while. From now on, when I am hunting with a single shot, I will also be carrying my Glock 10mm or my Ruger 357 mag Speed Six loaded with Double Tap 180 grain hardcasts. The 357 is so loud, I am hoping that would be enough to drive the bear off. Thank God we don't have brownies around here.

surehuntsalot · « **Reply #39 on:** December 05, 2012, 03:10:42 PM »

12ga slug gun here

hoytcanon · « **Reply #40 on:** December 05, 2012, 05:52:08 PM »

I do live in bear country... prime bear country, but I am talking blackies not grizz... and I am not disregarding their ability to do damage, but I am not overly concerned either. Blackies in general, do not have an agressive demeanor, although I have run across a few grumpy bears, and a few protecting a food source over the years. I have taken more than forty bears, all with a bow. Folks hunting with me have taken more than 100 others, with bows, rifles and shotguns (one with a spear). I will stick to your original question... of the three calibers, I would choose the .45/70 to HUNT with and the 12 gauge as a DEFENSIVE weapon... but will echo what most have said... as a defensive weapon, you would be much better off with an 870 with ghost ring sights and large florescent front bead. (and a roll of toilet paper and clean underwear)...

nanuk-O-dah-Nort · « **Reply #41 on:** December 05, 2012, 09:04:06 PM »

Quote from: hoytcanon on December 05, 2012, 05:52:08 PM

...of the three calibers, I would choose the .45/70 to HUNT with and the 12 gauge as a DEFENSIVE weapon... but will echo what most have said... as a defensive weapon, you would be much better off with an 870 with ghost ring sights and large florescent front bead. (and a roll of toilet paper and clean underwear)...

+1 ^^^

+2 on the TP and undies.

when I lived in Polar Bear country, the Defensive weapon of choice was a 12ga pump, with slugs.

I'd think 12ga with pumpkin balls or Dixie Triball load would do well also.

with the Pbear, 3030 RN's have been known to literally deflect off the skull.

if using a slug, or RB, Weight is key. if using a rifle, a FP or Spitzer is called for.

the Conservation Officers, and Guides all carry 12ga pumps with premium slugs. And a large caliber handgun.. and a high powered rifle for reaching out there if need be.

quasne.inc · « **Reply #42 on:** December 05, 2012, 09:07:50 PM »

hoytcanon I like the way you put it: 45-70 for hunting and 12 for defense. That is kinda what I was thinking from the get go.

Ganjiro · « **Reply #43 on:** December 06, 2012, 08:04:49 AM »

Remember 18" is the shortest you can go in a shotgun barrel legally vs 16" in rifles. I lived in Idaho several years ago, and had an encounter with a black bear. In a defensive situation with a bear 100 yard of even 50 yard minute of angle accuracy is irrelevant, you should not be shooting at a bear defensively at these distances. They will make false charges, and usually stop, turn tale, and run away. Shoot only if they keep on coming. In selecting a round for bear defense I prefer the 12 gauge shooting a 3" 1-3/8 oz slug. For comparative purposes I like to take the Thornily Relative Stopping Power formula into consideration. Muzzle energy figures leave out an important component from the equation- the projectile diameter. The Thornily formula takes this into account. No formula is perfect allowing for bullet design and construction into the equation but for comparative purposes which to me reflects more accurately field performance over raw energy figures the Thornily formula comes in handy:
http://beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/thornily.htm

12ga. Remington Buckhammer 3" 1-3/8 oz. slug @ 1500 fps = 344 TRSP
12ga. Brenekke Black Magic 3" 1-3/8 oz. slug @ 1502 fps = 345 TRSP

500 S&W Corbon WFN 440 grains @ 1872 fps = 244 TRSP
500 S&W Corbon WFM 500 grains @ 1643 fps = 245 TRSP

45/70 Garret Hammerhead 420 grains @ 1850 fps = 218 TRSP
45/70 Garret Hammerhead 540 grains @ 1550 fps = 235 TRSP

I do own both 12 gauge shotguns and an awesome 45/70 boltgun based on a SMLE action and wouldn't feel undergunned with either in bear country but if push came to shove in choosing bear defense I personally prefer a 12 gauge loaded with slugs. I'd hunt bear with 45/70 SMLE.

guns-o-fun · « **Reply #44 on:** December 07, 2012, 03:24:45 AM »

If this is primarily a bear defense gun, then there is a lot of consensus and practical experience in favor of the 12 ga with good slugs. If you are talking about a lighter weight shotgun with 3-inch magnum slugs, just remember that the beast is going to have one hellacious recoil. I discovered this with a 12 with a 21-inch slug barrel. The socalled "long-eye-relief" scope turned out not to be and I crept up close enough to receive the mark of the beast right between the eyes. Scared a little kid in the emergency room because I still had blood running down my face when I got there after a 20 minute drive! If you scope it, buy a couple of those scope eye rubber buffers to have and use - and be certain that the scope really is long eye relief! Live and learn, duh...

nanuk-O-dah-Nort · « **Reply #45 on:** December 07, 2012, 12:50:59 PM »

Quote from: 45-70.gov on October 28, 2012, 08:10:39 AM

rifle....take your pick.......AND RED-DOT. for night use and accuacy....and chop

shot gun.........buck shot go for the head

I'm not sure I'd trust a buckshot load to break down a bear

and a head is a pretty small target when it is coming at you at 30mph, and moving side to side.... and the **** is rolling down my leg inside my jeans...

FPH · « **Reply #46 on:** December 07, 2012, 01:01:25 PM »

When my friend hunted PBs, the latrine weapon for defence that the guide provided, was a 12ga. loaded with slugs.

noyb72 · « **Reply #47 on:** December 08, 2012, 11:01:22 AM »

Quote from: Sourdough on October 26, 2012, 06:42:02 AM

I live with Bear Protection on me all the time. Of the three you mentioned, 45-70 is the only one to even consider. Most Bear Guides here in Alaska carry a 45-70 so there must be something about it they like.

I think the 45-70 works well for guides because they often have to help a sport out with a killing shot. The heavily loaded 45-70 is without question what you want of the 3 for a killing shot at range, for protection from a charge I like the frontal area of the 12 ga. A lot of guys spot and stalk bear where I'm from and the 12 puts them down quick.

Ron

SB2 · « **Reply #48 on:** December 29, 2012, 03:50:53 PM »

I shot a black bear w a bow in ontario....after that experience I would use a 12 ga. w slugs given 100 yds or less to shoot.

jeepmann1948 · « **Reply #49 on:** December 30, 2012, 02:17:14 AM »

Best way to keep a bare female attacking is to keep feeding them dollar bills.....It sure works in the "Gentlemen's clubs"

ihookem · « **Reply #50 on:** December 30, 2012, 03:10:51 AM »

When I went to Minnesota I was surprised to see so many people used shotguns to huntbear. One lady that had the biggest bear ( 200 or so) used a 20 ga. The guy I was with used a 20ga. the year before and it was 400 lbs ( his estimate

) but it worked. This is over bait however, not over humans.

Jimbo47 · « **Reply #51 on:** December 30, 2012, 03:56:54 AM »

Given a choice I'd have to choose the 45-70. The shotgun is basically a close range gun, and I've shot and hunted with both, and when talking about bears and shotguns it's a little too close for me. The 45-70 would help keeping them at my feel good range which would definitely be the outer edge of shotgun range, and still knock them cold if it came to close range.
I will say that it wouldn't be a single shot! I've emptied three shots from a 30-30 Winchester at a big sow feral hog that was running straight toward me, missing with the first two shots, and finally connecting with the third and final round, dropping her at 40 feet, so bears in my opinion deserve a little more fire power.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #52 on:** December 30, 2012, 04:56:28 AM »

I fully appreciate the desire to keep a bad bear at a distance, but how does one know. We hear about, and watch the programs regarding bear body language, and one at 100, 75 or even 50yds is not considered a threat, correct? By definition, I think, a life endangering scenario is going to be close, way too close, but I have no business shooting a bear that is not threatening (unless hunting bear, of course; not what this thread is about).
So, CLOSE, or closing fast to CLOSE, is what we are really talking about and sometimes that will be when we are totally not in mental prep for it to be happening! What do I want in my hand(s) then other than my hat, which may be as good as anything at that point.
Ive watched some video of lion charging and making 1st shot hits is not a given, and as Jimbo said 2 misses on a charging hog before the drop shot at a CLOSE 40 feet. A 45-70 repeater wouldnt have changed that outcome at all. From 40 feet in Im thinking 12ga. buck, or alternating buck and slugs?
It happens FAST and at this point Im old and slow.......or maybe bait

.