Handi shorty for bear? .500, .45-70, 12 ga slug?

[quasne.inc]

Not that I am going to go bear hunting anytime soon, what will take down a bear just seems like a good benchmark to compare power to.  So I want to make a Handi shorty for just walking around the woods, we do have blackies and on rare occasion grizz will come down this way.  So my long winded question is which from the factory handi barrel would be more powerful, .500 s&w, .45-70, 12 ga slug, or another one I am not thinking of.  Sorry if this is a rehash, I didn't find anything quite like this in the search.

[knight0334]

Given the allowed working pressures and workable case capacity - the .45-70 has the potential to be the most powerful of all three.

Most .500S&W factory loads are already at max pressure.  ...where as the .45-70 is just starting to get warmed up.   The 12ga has a max pressure in the low to mid teens, back can hurl close to 2 ounces of lead.

However, given the logistical and tactical aspect - a Handi is a poor gun for defensive uses against bears, or 2 legged critters, because of it's capacity and reloading time.    If you're using to hunt bear, it's likely you'll be ambushing or stalking the bear.   In a defensive situation, you're the one that likely to be ambushed or stalked.

[guns-o-fun]

If you are going to use a single shot for bear protection, you are a better man than me Gunga Din.  Even the best of us tends to miss the mark once in a while, especially under the pressure of a bear charge, black or brown.

[Jimbo47]

What you wish to carry is your business, but of the three you mentioned I would go with the 45-70 hands down.

[Couger]

 
The .45/70 might be a good choice for what you're considering, but don't discount using a 12ga - just offhand!
 
One of my Handi projects is to build a similar gun as yours (a 12ga "Survivor!" camp/truck gun), that I can use in a multitude of ways, with slug and buckshot ammo, but also some 2 or 1.75inch birdshot loads and some aerial marine red flares!
 
The bear slugs I've selected, already have are 3" Winchester Partition Gold slugs that weigh 385 grains and generate 3400+ foot-pounds at the muzzle!  (a 3" Remington Buckhammer with a 602 grain slug (1 3/8 oz), that generates 3200+ foot-pounds of ME; a .375H&H generates 4300+ fpe.  I went with the WW Partition Gold's because the slugs are .50 cal, 1.5" long and are Partitions!).
 
But along with my single 12gagg in bear country I'll be packing a .357 or .44 too.  Hoping that first slug will make mr bear mighty sick - if I don't crap my drawers in the process!
 
Some 12ga loads like the .45/70 are quite potent! 

[quasne.inc]

I'm not going to hunt bear with it and I doubt I will ever come across any while out hiking, my family is very loud and would prob let any wild animals know we are coming for miles around.  I was just curious to the power comparisons for those three in a short barrel config and figured that having to stop a bear as a worse case scenario would be a good indication of which people think has more punch to it.  For some odd reason I just think it would be fun to have a big booming shorty.  Thanks for the replies.  Keep em coming.

[Sourdough]

I live with Bear Protection on me all the time.  Of the three you mentioned, 45-70 is the only one to even consider.  Most Bear Guides here in Alaska carry a 45-70 so there must be something about it they like.

[cwlongshot]

To my mind, a defensive bear is 12g pump. Hands down, a good reliable, slicked up, short barreled 870.

Second choice, a short stocked, Marlin Guide gun in 45/70, 444 or 450 Marlin interchangeability.

If all I could choose was a H&R, ANY of your three choices. PROPERLY LOADED. Would be, IMHO, your best choices.

Like Cougar said, some slugs are better than others. Some years back there was a story of a brave gent who went buff hunting with a shotgun. He used Brenneke 3" Mag shells with special hardened projectiles. (Black Magic Magnum) They still make them today IIRC they are over 600g and produce near 1500 fps and over 4K FP of energy.  That's a serious slug!!

In the 45/70 I would want 350RN Hornadys at 2250-2300 fps.

In the 444, probably a Barnes 300 SP at top vel (vs accuracy) Say 2100fps

In the 450, the same 350 RN Hornady bullet. 2100fps

The 500, 400g bullet at 2000 fps

In this "game" big bullets that disrupt the most tissue and drive deep to break down big bones will stop fights the quickest. YES accuracy matters too, but with practice comes consistancy. With consistancy accuracy and confidence. These are all things you must have to live thru such an encounter.
The single firearm, I rely on is my 870 with me running it.

CW

[streak]

I say the 45-70, judiciously reloading can put you at low level .458 Win Mag territory!

[quasne.inc]

So what load level of the .45-70 can the Handi take?  Is it in the marlin range, ruger #1, or in between?

[Airsporter]

So what load level of the .45-70 can the Handi take?  Is it in the marlin range, ruger #1, or in between?

On an SB2 action the Handi is good to go on all the 'reasonable' high-pressure loadings.  The Lyman manual lists all 45-70 loads for the Ruger No. 1/No. 3 under 40,000 CUP.  Cartridges such as the 35 Whelen (a factory chambered Handi round) run about 50,000 CUP by comparison.   I think your shoulder will give out before the Handi. 

[quickdtoo]

So what load level of the .45-70 can the Handi take?  Is it in the marlin range, ruger #1, or in between?

The Handi is available in 500S&W which has a larger case head than the 45-70 and a SAAMI MAP of 60kpsi, most data goes to about 52kpsi, so do the math on what a 45-70 will handle, Hodgdon and Hornady data goes to 50kcup which is equivilent to 50kpsi, Barnes data loads the 45-70 to 55kpsi, I've shot both in my H&Rs, it's no fun tho from the bench, as previously stated, you'll likely give out before the SB2 frame will! 

Tim

[quasne.inc]

I can guarantee my shoulder would prob be done after one shot of the ruger #1 loads.  Especially since my shoulder is not back to 100% after hurting it a few months ago.  This is a lot of great info guys.  I need a couple of projects to keep me from getting bored during these long winters here.  Now I just gotta decide if I want to chop and red dot it or leave it be and use the irons. 

[bikerbeans]

+1 with Sourdough, if it works in AK I think it would work fine in the lower 48. 
 
BB

[clearwater]

Here is a photo someone posted of a 25 cal nosler BT versus a Federal Premium Barnes Expander 12 ga slug shot
at 1/8" piece of plate. Ballistic Tip went through, Slug did not.

http://www.noslerreloading.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=19327

[Dinny]

http://dixieslugs.com/products.html
http://www.dixieslugs.com/forum1/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=247&sid=77d6e6cbd40ccfd8432fa4c77d005746

A 870gr heat-treated lead 12ga slug at 1200fps is nothing to sneeze at either.


Thanks, Dinny

[twoshooter]

I would not feel ad with any of them, but personally I would go with the 500. It has a lot more frontal area than the 45/70 to start with, and I think it a bit more accuracy than a slug. It also loses less velocity in the shorter barrels than a 444 or 45/70. If you look at what you get from a BC versus a ported Guide gun (which I dearly love), and the 444 Timber carbine vs a full 24 " in the 444, you see there is abig difference. There is very little difference in the 500 due to case capacity vs bore diameter, a 15" encore barrel shows an accuracy load with a 400 gr jacketed as 37 gr of H111, for 1656 fps. Same bullet from a 10" S&W barrel and 34.5gr N110 which is also a max load, 1s 1640 fps. You could cut a handi down to 16.5" and expect pretty much that performance.
   A 45/70 out of a 16" contender carbine, the accuracy load/max load and a 400 gr bullet is 34 gr of RL7 for 1354 fps. The same bullet out of a full sized marlin 1895 with 51gr of 3031 is just over 1700fps. Out of a 28" test barrel and over 57 gr of 4895, they got 1880 with a 500 (five hundred) gr RN soft point. Now, that is a Ruger level load.
    Point here is that you asked specifically which "factory barrel" would be the most "powerful". A: Without question a BC barrel , hands down. You then mentioned a "shorty" for "walking around". Apples and oranges. Best SHORT gun would be a 16" 500 S&W. If you went real radical with a synthetic stock and ghost ring peep, it would probably weigh less than a BC barrel alone. VERY (pun)  Handi indeed. The only thing better would be a change in the 1934 law that prohibits barrels under 16" on a stock. A 15" Encore barrel with a Pro-Hunter buttstock would be nifty also. My 2 cents.

[gcrank1]

So, you wanting to scare the bear off or kill it? I would never argue with Sourdough, but I cant help but wonder with Blackies if a well pointed load of shot in front of them might stop an approach, or if needed a head shot wouldnt be worse than a bunch o' bees to make him/her reconsider? Under stress of a charge and likely close distance I doubt Id have a reload in and I am not sure of my marksmanship then either. A little forgiveness in accuracy with large shot might not be a bad choice?
Just askin.....Im curious too.

[twoshooter]

Actually if you are going to try that , I used to load 3 cast 150 gr 30 caliber bullets in a 1 1/4 ounce shot wad out of a 3" 12ga shell, they created quite a mess when they hit , usually about a 4" spread @ 25 yards from a IC bore.

[quasne.inc]

Interesting info.  You know to be honest I really dont have a specific purpose for this, I just was curious how these three calibers compared and wanted help deciding on which to get for a project gun this winter.  I already have a pardner 12 ga I might chop but if I decide to go with one of the other two I might sell it to offset the cost of the new one.  So many choices and so little time and money.  I wont be going looking for bears and if by some chance I do come across one I plan to do whatever I can to get out of there without a confrontation, but I was a Scout so I try to be prepared for the worse. 

[quasne.inc]

And yes I should have been more specific in my original post, I should have said most powerful factory barrel after cutting it down to 17 in.

[jeepmann1948]

 A 12ga would be the most versatile.Many choices of loads from mild to wild and in between also. With a Handi with a 18" barrel, screw in chokes,fiber optic sights and a shell belt with an assortment of shells , plenty of toilet paper and comfortable running shoes you will be well equipped to have a chance encounter with anything.

[KIMBER45]

It's very thick where I hunt. No shots over 100 yds. Because of that, I use a12 ga. slug gun.

[Jimbo47]

As for versatility the 500 and 45-70 is also as verastile as a 12 gauge if not more, since you have a lot more options, and can load them down for bunnies or just plinking with super mild loads using Trailboss powder, or full house heavy thumping bear loads with a bullet and powder of your choice, as well as everything in between.
Can't get much more versatile than that!

[LaOtto222]

I know this a Handi forum and the choices were for a Handi....but personally, I would not rely on a single shot for an unexpected bear charge. I would want fire power and it better be quick with follow up shots. I am with CW on this, it would be hard to beat a shorty 12 gauge pump. I have one with a 18" barrel and rifle sites. I would carry it with some of those special slugs for deep penetration that have a full .700+" frontal diameter. Believe me, at short range, these are very deadly. I would also have some hulls with shot in them along for small game hunting or just for fun. A shotgun is all we could hunt with in my state for decades, you would not believe how much damage they can do with just the plain lead slug, let alone a large heat treated slug. If you really have a problem with a shotgun, then a 45-70, 444 or 450 Marlin with proper bullets in a lever action would be hard to beat.

Good Luck and Good Shooting

[quasne.inc]

I dont have a problem with shotguns.  I do have a 6 shot 18 in barrel Mossberg.  If I ever go into an area known to have bears in it that is definantly what I would take along with my .357 mag and a couple of friends, and if we were on our four wheelers I would prob have my mosin as well.  But more likely than not I will be avoiding known bear hangouts.   

[quasne.inc]

Seeing as I have the short barreled mossberg and I still have a few hundred .452 bullets from my .45 colt that I sold I think I am going to go with the .45-70.  I can load up the .452 for plinking and maybe bunnies and then I need to load up on some quality .458 bullets. 

[gcrank1]

Those .452s are way too small a dia. for a 45-70

[quickdtoo]

What they said on the .452" bullets, I've used em to check the bores on my H&R 45-70s(7 of em) they'll drop right thru the bore onto the floor on most of em, some stop mid bore, might as well throw rocks!  The 45-70 uses .457"-.460" bullets.

Tim

[Shu]

In my mind the 45-70 works because it is slightly tapers and the thinner front end gives you a chance at a faster reload. I will be the first to say I am no expert when it comes to bears. I have seen a couple in the wild but haven't rubbed shoulders with them like Sourdough. If I was going to pick a bear gun I would want to listen to the guy that killed several.
There are a few black bears where I hunt they are small, and run off pretty fast. I haven't been closer than 75 yards to them.
 
The 45-70, 500 SW and the 12 guage all have enough oomph to get the job done. Just pick your favorite and practice snap shooting. A lot of practice if you intend to go in harms way.