All 9 wounded in Empire shooting were shot by police. Great shooting guys.

[SHOOTALL]

you generaly don't take a bullet for a stranger either . what should they have done ? play the gun/bullet free zone card ?

[Cabin4]

The mayor of NY is Blomberg. He is a Liberal who takes his marching orders from obama. Obama, the Liberlas and the Demacrats are directly to blame for all of this.

[SHOOTALL]

The mayor of NY is Blomberg. He is a Liberal who takes his marching orders from obama. Obama, the Liberlas and the Demacrats are directly to blame for all of this.

don't forget soros has a hand in it .................

[finisher]

I have never been too impressed by the attitude or professionalism most of the of cops to whom I've been exposed, but I do see them as a necessary evil; and the job, without doubt has moments that will bring out the best and the worst in any individual.


I've already stated that if someone turned and swept me with a gun, having no option of preclusion, I would without doubt fire because as I said before, I WANT TO LIVE!!


There is a small handfull of guys out there (and maybe a few gals) who actually could double tap an orc in the face, in a pinch, even as far out as fifty feet. But the majority of us just aren't as skillful and that is the reality of it.


I fancy myself a decent point shooter and although I've done it on paper plenty, I could never guarantee that I could pull it off the way I just described...BUT I STILL WOULD HAVE SHOT.


But I also KNOW that I would not have "spazzed" out, what was it... seven and nine shots a piece at close range, but again not everyone has the ability etc. etc.


I suppose trigger discipline is a challenge with semi automatic just as it is with fully.


Those of you who were in the military might recall, if you were one of those that got frustrated at the slow dull pace of some of the more technical aspects of classroom training, the instructors pulling you aside(or dragging you in my case) and telling you that you had to be patient (hurry up and wait, how many remember that) because the class will always be taught at the learning pace of the dumbest guy in the class.


It is no different in any large para military organization including law enforcement.
Those in charge have to train these guys, give them what they can and get them out there without killing their budgets. They have to do it quickly and efficiently and hope for the best because they already have a very limited pool from which to hire to begin with.


All this considered, these two guys produced about the best end result that could have happened...given the law of averages.


It may not have been the best result possible but it was the best that they could do and that's all anyone can ask. And if that doesn't measure up, well then... (and lord, I can hear Cuts Crooked laughing at me for saying this but) NYC should look at themselves because it was there votes that made it possible for these guys to get hired in the first place.

[m-g Willy]

you generaly don't take a bullet for a stranger either . what should they have done ? play the gun/bullet free zone card ?

They should not have confronted him until they could position themselfs to where no pass throughs or miss would indanger  bystanders.
 

[Shu]

I am very sure there are many on this board alone that would make my career look like a tour in the Boy Scouts. You don't have to have served to have been around the block a time or two.
 
From my understanding these two were engaging an active shooter? How would you do it?
 
Sure it is unfortunate that bystanders were injured, it really sucks no one disagrees with that.
I am sure the situation could have been handled much better and much worse. We don't know we can't go back in time. The answer is maybe.
 
Not all cops are heroes, not all cops are jerks. Putting on a uniform sometimes means you have to put up with crap no one else wants to.
 

 
 
 
 

[SHOOTALL]

so how did they happen upon him in the first place ? maybe he came out in front of them ? maybe they didn't have that option .
MAYBE they didn't get to watch the new Border Patrol E-class and take the quizzes and test that instructs them to run from mass shooters , hide if possible until the crisis is over or as a last resort therow objects at them . Shooting is a bad thing to do. 

[Swift One]

Funny thing here with Dee and other "protect the LEO family no matter what" posters is that they fail to remember the training they recieved on use of force.  I just gotta chime in here.  I am a firearms instructor at my facility for tactial teams and line staff.  I know alot of policy reguarding he use of force in other states.  We adopted some of our use of force policies from cities such as New York and Los Angeles.  Concerning shooting in heavily populated areas.  You dont put innocent people in jeapordy- period.  Now, if the bad guy was already shooting at the cops or the civilians they are already in jeapordy.  The cops need to stop it.  This guy was walking down the road- with a weapon albeit. But still wasnt shooting anyone- just walking.  How quick cops today seem to forget their communications skills, less lethal options (pepperspray, Taser, physical handling tactics), and their duty to protect and serve.
 
I too am also wondering if they engaged with a few rounds, assessed the situation, then engaged again.  OR just dumped a mag into the perp- which by the way was walking down a street not shooting anyone.
 
These guys let there emotions control their actions.  It looks as if they played judge- jury-executioner.  They didnt think about or take a very good look at the big picture. There was a threat- but no immediate threat which warranted this kind of action. They at no time followed any use of force continuum that I could see.
 
Some folks here get on other that persecute cops and their actions. I say this, show me in policy (NYPD Policy) that what they did was justified, what a reasonable nd responsible person would have done, and utilized the minimal amount of force necassary to stop a situation.

[Cuts Crooked]

They were following him, he turned and point a .45 at them...big difference from your scenerio.

Lemme see here.......NYC, yup a busy pace, easy to lose someone in a crowd, better stay fairly close or you're gonna lose this guy, unfortunately that also means he can tell he's being followed....... stay back and hope you can find him before he decides to kill again maybe? He's already killed one, he ain't much too lose does he?

Tell ya what, I wasn't there and I won't try to second guess the officers, but let's stick with what we've been told, instead of making up s#!+. Speaking of which......what we were told and what really happened is two different things as we now no that 9 people were NOT shot by the officers. Wonder what else the article got wrong?

[m-g Willy]

What we know is 9 people were hit by bullets or bullet fragments.
Three people were hit by direct fire.
All those wounded were wounded by the two NYPD officers.
Just by your standard ,,how many innocent people can the cops shoot before you start to question the tactics that were used?
 

[SHOOTALL]

one item not mentioned is how many bullets bounced off something else before hitting anyone ? I have no clue but it could be no innocent people were in direct line of fire and the cops thought it safe to shoot .

[finisher]

So from what I've read, it comes down to this: The suspect turned with gun in hand and pointed in the direction of the officers.


Now I'm usually one of more vocal critics of police professionalism here, but in this case you can "shyte can" all the speculation of what should have been done up to that particular point.


The only thing these guys did wrong was not being "Hop-Along Cassidy" with a pistola.


They did the best they could with the training they got and the ability that they had.


People were wounded, no one but the orc killed...an unfortunate chain of events, yes. But it is done.


If I were to punish the officers in any way (if I could) I would force them to buy 1000rounds out of their pockets and do some none stop point shooting drills. At close range (I'd say 25 feet or less), double taps to the noggin. Forget all this center mass crap.


I think of the movie "A Time to Kill". Anyone remember that one? The injured officer said that he felt absolutely no malice at all for the father and seemed to actually empathize as to the fathers state of mind. In that case I wouldn't have used an M16 but ones state of mind definitely comes to bare. Diminished capacity or not, I certainly would found some way to make those dogs dead.


Another issue that I think people may be subconsciously equating this incident with is the idea of officers firing on a FLEEING suspect which is most certainly NOT the case here.


I cannot recall the specific precedent setting case but it was within just the last 20 years , I believe, that it was established that an officer could not shoot a fleeing suspect in the back. Of course that is an entirely different debate.


Like I said, I'm usually very scrutinizing of these occurrences but in this case, I say leave these guys alone, send ammo donations to them so they can hone their shooting skills. If the suspect has an estate, split it up and give it to the wounded.

[Jack Ripper]

Almost every man in my family has been in law enforcement, and I can assure you none of them would have fired more than two shots in that situation. Those two officers have NO EXCUSE for their actions. Anybody who thinks or tries to justify their actions needs to have their head examined.

[Swift One]

I dont care if the guy did infact pull a weapon out on the cops.  Fact is, the public was there.  Let's say, it's confirmed that the guy did actually pull a gun and the cops just arent making that sh*t up.  The cops pulled their weapons shot a couple times assessed, still saw a threat target shot a few more times, assessed and shot again.  I'm all on board with that- besides the fact that they cant shoot for sh*t. But, at least they didnt get all rambo on the suspect.
 
Now, they just ran up behind him, ordered him to stop, the guy reaches for a pistol, and the cops dump bookoo rounds in him with a crowd present and danger close? If that's what happened, the cops in my eyes, and I would think by most physical force and legal aspect policies are wrong wrong wrong.
 
A great scenario that someone brought up before.  Get eyes on the guy and follow until he is in a more secure location to apprehend- with lethal force if necassary.  As long as your following the guy and he is not putting others in danger- you are good.  Sounds like this guy's mission was complete and he was heading back home for a few victory drinks anyways.  Of course that is pure specualtion and the cops had NO WAY of knowing the full chain of events.  However, the cops still have a duty to not put the community in jeopardy- I dont care what the fed court says about not obligated to protect a civilian.

[flintlock]

Bottom line...They took care of the perp without loss of life to themselves or bystanders...
 
 
 
 

[Graybeard]

Stick to the topic. STOP the name calling and personal attacks or this thread is going to be locked and some folks are gonna get a ten day ban from the site. I'm tired of having to constantly remind folks who supposedly are adults to stop acting like three year olds.

[SHOOTALL]

so can we assume that those complaining the cops were wrong would take a bullet before fireing at the bad guy if they were in the same situation ? Trying to close on the bad guy from behind when for no apperant reason he spins around with gun in hand . It is asking alot IMHO.

[Shu]

From reading a statement from one of the people wounded by the cops, he stated the gunman pointed his weapon at the cops. The cops then fired.
 
Does anyone really think they can point a gun at a cop and not get shot at when the cop is responding to a shooting?
 
Any time there is an officer involved shooting there is a huge investigation up to and including could it have been avoided or could better tactics have been used.
 
I would love to see the after action reports and the results of the internal affairs reports on this shooting.

[m-g Willy]

so can we assume that those complaining the cops were wrong would take a bullet before fireing at the bad guy if they were in the same situation ? Trying to close on the bad guy from behind when for no apperant reason he spins around with gun in hand . It is asking alot IMHO.

No one should fault the cops for shooting someone that points a gun at them.
But the cops were 100% wrong in their tactics that led up to the shooting.
I wouldn't chase a made dog into a  school yard just to corner it so I could capture it.
And I wouldn't pressure a man with a gun that was just walking away into a confrontation on a busy sidewalk.
 

[yellowtail3]

And I wouldn't pressure a man with a gun that was just walking away into a confrontation on a busy sidewalk.

you might, if you were LE with de facto lic to do all kinds of things that get normal citizens thrown into jail!

[williamlayton]

HUMMMM! andThen what the hay.
I had always assumed that most of us here were fairly realistic--at least conservativeand above all defenders of the 2nd ammendment.
I read all the time about shoot first and ask questions/be tried by 12 is better than being carried by six/bring back public hangings---all the John Wayne stuff that men should strive to live up too.
Then let the Police get in a shootout and it sounds like the Democratic National Convention.
Folks--oh FOLKS--we are all going to die someday. Some with their boots on and some in an icecream parlor with their face buried in ice cream.
Innocent folks die every day--one way or the other, and, some good folks die and the bad get away.
Get a grasp on life and understand that it is not fair or perfect--there is only one way for one to be a part of a Hollywood ending.
The cops did a good job and some folks got hurt---life goes on and from all that I read, it was a good shooting---not like the Martin/Zimmerman sideshow going on in Fla. and everyone here aplauded that shooting.
Blessings

[finisher]

HUMMMM! andThen what the hay.
I had always assumed that most of us here were fairly realistic--at least conservativeand above all defenders of the 2nd ammendment.
I read all the time about shoot first and ask questions/be tried by 12 is better than being carried by six/bring back public hangings---all the John Wayne stuff that men should strive to live up too.
Then let the Police get in a shootout and it sounds like the Democratic National Convention.
Folks--oh FOLKS--we are all going to die someday. Some with their boots on and some in an icecream parlor with their face buried in ice cream.
Innocent folks die every day--one way or the other, and, some good folks die and the bad get away.
Get a grasp on life and understand that it is not fair or perfect--there is only one way for one to be a part of a Hollywood ending.
The cops did a good job and some folks got hurt---life goes on and from all that I read, it was a good shooting---not like the Martin/Zimmerman sideshow going on in Fla. and everyone here aplauded that shooting.
Blessings

********
I think I'd be ok with going out like that .

[m-g Willy]

HUMMMM! andThen what the hay.
I had always assumed that most of us here were fairly realistic--at least conservativeand above all defenders of the 2nd ammendment.
I read all the time about shoot first and ask questions/be tried by 12 is better than being carried by six/bring back public hangings---all the John Wayne stuff that men should strive to live up too.
Then let the Police get in a shootout and it sounds like the Democratic National Convention.
Folks--oh FOLKS--we are all going to die someday. Some with their boots on and some in an icecream parlor with their face buried in ice cream.
Innocent folks die every day--one way or the other, and, some good folks die and the bad get away.
Get a grasp on life and understand that it is not fair or perfect--there is only one way for one to be a part of a Hollywood ending.
The cops did a good job and some folks got hurt---life goes on and from all that I read, it was a good shooting---not like the Martin/Zimmerman sideshow going on in Fla. and everyone here aplauded that shooting.
Blessings

So if a few innocents get shot we should just blow it off?
How about if I was walking down the street and two cops opened up with their guns and bullets were flying by me....what would you say about me if I returned fire on them,, for shooting towards me? (How did I know they wern't shooting at me? How would I know they were real cops, and if they were real cops ,,why were they shooting at me?)
 
 
 

[williamlayton]

Well now---suspose that you were walking down the street/sitting in a resturant/driving down the road and someone opened up on you---what would you do if armed--knowing that there were innocents who would be harmed by them?
1) call the police on your cell phone
2) duck
3) Talk to them in a civil manner, knowing you could reson with them
FOLKS---dead is dead and wounded is wounded no matter who is at fault--the attempt would be to limit the dead to the other guy.
Some would raise a question about your killing yourownself by eating food that was dangerous to your health, start a campaign to outlaw ice cream, collect money to support the campaign and retire wealthy.
Blessings

[Brett]

I'm not 2nd guessing these cops too much.  All I know is NYPD has a rich history of unloading alot of lead on bad guys, armed or unarmed, in spray and pray fashion. My belief is this is a function of the automatic service sidearm...easy to let loose alot of lead and reload fast.  Likely, if these cops had service revolvers they would have each fired a round or two, or maybe just one round....perserving their other 4 or 5 rounds if hostilities continued without risky reloading.
Just saying in historical context.....maybe cops use to be better marksmen back then
.
.
..TM7

 I think this may be the second time this year that I agree with something TM7 said.   

[m-g Willy]

Well now---suspose that you were walking down the street/sitting in a resturant/driving down the road and someone opened up on you---what would you do if armed--knowing that there were innocents who would be harmed by them?
1) call the police on your cell phone
2) duck
3) Talk to them in a civil manner, knowing you could reson with them
FOLKS---dead is dead and wounded is wounded no matter who is at fault--the attempt would be to limit the dead to the other guy.
Some would raise a question about your killing yourownself by eating food that was dangerous to your health, start a campaign to outlaw ice cream, collect money to support the campaign and retire wealthy.
Blessings

My beef isn't the cops shooting at someone that points a gun at them.
I am saying that the two NYPD should not have pressured a confrontation  on a crowed street.
 

[Cuts Crooked]

 
My beef isn't the cops shooting at someone that points a gun at them.
I am saying that the two NYPD should not have pressured a confrontation  on a crowed street.

Hmmmm? And how do you know that's what they did?

As mentioned earlier They were following him, a crowd in NYC is a pretty easy place to lose someone, so I'm guessing they had to follow reasonably close, he realized they were there and turned and pointed a gun at them............ You ever try to follow someone in a crowded NY street? I haven't, but I've been on a crowded NY street and, Shamus the Super TV Detective not withstanding, I don't think I could follow someone from a distance, in a crowd in NYC, and not lose them.

Meanwhile, he has already killed someone, and still has the means to do it again......what's his mindset? Is he going to kill some more people? We don't know, but his actions have shown that he's willing to kill. Are we going to take a chance that he's done killing? we do know that we have to stop him and we haven't always got the opportunity to chose the "where and when".

Lot's a questions, lot's of factors.........I ain't gonna second guess the guys who were there and in the middle of it.

[m-g Willy]

Hmmmm? And how do you know that's what they did?

I seen the video.

[Cuts Crooked]

Hmmmm? And how do you know that's what they did?

I seen the video.

Cool, there's video from beginning to end? Where? And does it address all the possible factors involved?

[Cuts Crooked]

Ok, I found the vid. It shows darned little and does not seem to indicate that the police created the "confrontation". They were following him, not confronting him. He appears to realize they were following, turned and pointed his gun at them.

The vid really doesn't clear up anything.