Global Warming?

[Sourdough]

I have always been a skeptic when it came to Global Warming.  Many of the Scientist here in Alaska debunked a lot of the things the environmental groups were saying.  They refused to join in with "The Sky Is Falling" crowd.  They did agree that the Earth is going through a cycle, but that these cycles are normal.  We here in Alaska are the first to see any Global Warming changes, and we are seeing changes.  Trees growing higher on the mountains.  Birds never before seen in Alaska are showing up. Migrations are slowing down, and animals are staying the winter that used to migrate.  Repeated Rain and Ice Storms in the middle of winter.  OK enough of that.

I was talking with my son last night, he is a student at University Of Alaska Fairbanks.  He has taken courses in Geology, and Biology is his major.  He has attended lectures by world renowned Vulcanologist, and Meteorologist.  We had quite a discussion about global warming and CO2 emissions. 

I had always thought one Volcano eruption would release more CO2 than man ever released.  Also planting trees and raising crops would negate the CO2 releases from Industry and Home releases.  Sky informed me that Volcanos do not release that much CO2, they release a lot of pollutants but CO2 is not one of the major ones.  In the last few years global release of CO2 has risen exponentially, from India, and China, using mainly Coal to power their new found economies.  Unlike America they are not using any form of technological advances to lower the releases of harmful pollutants or gases.  Being so much bigger and with a far higher population, they have rapidly far surpassed the amounts of pollutants America ever released.  With no controls in sight, and refusing to listen to what the rest of the world is saying.

OK, maybe it's time to rethink my views on Global Warming. 

I still hate Albert Gore Jr.  That's his real name given at birth, and what is listed on his birth certificate, according to relatives.

[Conan The Librarian]

If the argument had been presented in a factual way, I'd probably take it seriously, but since it was politicized and the exaggerations were deliberate attempts to deceive, there is no reason whatever to take the argument seriously. There are all kinds of threats, this may be one of them. But I'm not about to pay attention to some liar that is only looking out for his own wealth.
 
As to changes in climate, so what if China and India and similar emerging nations are causing a problem? What are we supposed to do about it? They are going to do what they need to do for growth and advancement, just as the US and Europe did. Just because we polluted the hell out of everything before they did and then changed our ways it doesn't make us right to pressure other countries to revert to primitive societies.
 
Despite the expansion of Chinese industry in recent years, they have been a heavy polluter for decades. It's not new, so any consideration of China's contribution to world air pollution will have to be in the context of incremental effects.
 
The credible science, after you wade through all the BS of which there is a lot, is that climate is changing, man probably has an impact on it, but it is not known how much, and that CO2 is probably not as big a factor as some would have us believe.  Developed nations can reduce world emissions by taking the lead on low-emission energy production methods like nuclear power. They can also negotiate with emerging nations to learn from lessons previously learned to use more earth-friendly methods of expansion, and maybe help with the process.
 
The important thing is that change occurs on a longer scale than our own lifetimes, and it's easy to be blinded to what is normal by focusing on a few things. Keep in mind that Greenland, now under miles of ice, was a good place for agriculture and livestock only 1100 years ago. Florida had mastodons on it. The poles were in different places not that long ago. Wyoming was under the sea.
 
With all the hysteria, lies, and misinformation, we get statements like "the ice pack in the arctic has receded in big areas". The response should be "So what? Is that a problem? It's happened before, so why should we consider it an emergency if it happens again?"
 
 

[crustylicious]

Good for the University of Alaska and good for Sky. There is hope for you yet!

[Rex in OTZ]

I cant swear to what goes on in the rest of the world but I can pretty mauch tell you what goes on in my immediate area.
 
It never gets real till your money goes to fixing stuff that had for generations worked perfictly, the road that becomes impassable from heaving after 40 years of state maintenance, the home you live in 'constructed in 1964' is pitching worse than a Cheyenne Days Saddle Bronc, your sewer has shifted because of warmer temps and now wont drain right costing me thousands of $$ to fix.
 
Global Warming? who knows, I couldent tell you what happens in Africa or Europe, I really dont care, Mabe I would if I lived in them places.
 
 Alaska Warming? Oh yes definately!
 
Warming permafrost threatens Arctic ice cellars
http://www.newsminer.com/view/full_story/7914711/article-Warming-permafrost-threatens-Arctic-ice-cellars-
http://www.adn.com/2012/08/07/2577036/arctic-villages-hit-hard-by-climate.html
http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/our-alaska-wainwright-ice-cellar
http://seagrant.uaf.edu/map/climate/docs/permafrost.php
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uNQnYF3Olxk
 

 
 
 
 
 

 
 
 
 
 

A retrogressive thaw slump on the Bonnet Plume River, which flows into the Peel River in northern Yukon Territory. The top of the feature is about a half-mile-wide. The mudflow extends more than one mile.
http://www.sitnews.us/1009news/100109/100109_ak_science.html
 
Selawik River Mud slump
 

http://www.fws.gov/refuge/Selawik/about/climate_change.html

 

Village of Shishmaref, Alaska. Notice the trash can in the image on the left, before the storm, and in the image on the right, after the storm.

 

Why do beach ridges errode?, How are Beach ridges made?

http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/detect/human-shishmaref.shtml

 

http://independent.academia.edu/OwenMason/Papers/583698/Beach_Ridge_Geomorphology_at_Cape_Grinnell_northern_Greenland_A_Less_Icy_Arctic_in_the_Mid-Holocene

 

  Arctic Lakes Are Disappearing June 3, 2005
   Global warming appears to be causing lakes to drain and disappear in Arctic regions, a UCLA-headed team of researchers report in the latest issue of Science.
If the pattern persists, it may imperil migratory birds and wreak further havoc on the region's weather, warns Laurence Smith, the article's lead author and an associate professor of geography at UCLA.

 

http://phys.org/news4378.html

 

http://nsidc.org/data/arcss143.html

     

Indicator #13  Appearing and disappearing lakes in the Arctic and their impacts on biodiversity

http://www.arcticbiodiversity.is/index.php/en/ecosystems/appearing-and-disappearing-lakes-in-the-arctic-and-their-impacts-on-biodiversity

 

Vegetational Change and Ice-Wedge Polygons through the Thaw-Lake Cycle in Arctic Alaska

http://www.jstor.org/stable/1550492

 

Methane emissions from permafrost thaw lakes limited by lake drainage

http://www.nature.com/nclimate/journal/v1/n2/pdf/nclimate1101.pdf?WT.ec_id=NCLIMATE-201105

 

Whats this about road beds that settle and heave all topsy turvey after they been used for over 40 years ?

http://nsidc.org/cryosphere/frozenground/how_fg_affects_land.html

 

How about them funny bannana shaped culverts that wont drain during spring breakup?

http://ascelibrary.org/doi/abs/10.1061/9780784412121.458

 

Some of you may scoff if you want, We in NorthWest Alaska havnt the luxury of ignoring the ravages of the warming trend impacting our city's public works its just to darn real of a problem especially with the higher costs of equipment/fuel/and products, just this spring we actually considerd the warming trend when drafting the City of Kotzebue Comprehensive plan.

[Cuts Crooked]

Global warming may be occuring. It HAS occured in the past, it WILL occure again.

Meanwhile we are experiancing the coolest August in living memory here.

[magooch]

My question is, who the hell wants global cooling?

[Doublebass73]

My question is, who the hell wants global cooling?

The idiots warning us about the impending doom of global warming must want it (I would think) although if that were the case they'd be warning us about the impending doom from global cooling like they did in Newsweek back in 1975:

http://denisdutton.com/cooling_world.htm

Back then they were actually proposing to cover the Arctic ice caps with black soot to melt them and also diverting arctic rivers.

[rkeltner]

global warming happens, global cooling happens....at the end of the day, climate control is about the control...not the climate!

[kennyd]

There may indeed be "climate change" going on.  How much did man contrubite, and how much decrease in quality of life would we face to fix it? 


There ha,ve been stories about the biggest piece of ice breaking off some glacier in the last 20 years--wht made the larger one break off 20 years ago?


There was some expert on the radio telling how we MUST eat less meat, take shorter showers, and drive small boxes when we can't walk to where we need to go.   So, the doc told us to eat more red meat as wife was low on iron, one of the pleasures (no vacations as such with out economy) I get is a HOT BATH after work, and my truck hauls stuff when  I need to, and the bus does not go to work.


We do not have the killer fogs of London as in days of old, few cars gag you when you follow them (old trucks come to mind).


A lot of this is the elite telling us to back off and let them do whatever it is that is fun; they will let the rest of us see the video.

[Val]

There is indisputable geological evidence that shows that the earth has had cycles of global warming and cooling (ice ages). The issue today is whether man is the cause of the current warming trend. The current warming trend could reverse itself or continue on. In the early 1900s the sky is falling crowd were screaming about an ice age is about to happen that one stopped and we started warming again. If you listen to climatologist that don't have a political agenda you hear that global warming and cooling are a function of the earths orbit around the sun (it varies and sometimes the orbit is closer to the sun (warming) and sometimes farther from the sun (cooling). Aso the amount of energy the sun puts out varies (sometimes more energy ((warming)) sometimes less ((cooling))). Ninety five percent of the greenhouse gas in the atmosphere is water vapor, CO2 is a mere 5%.  So man's burning of fossil fuel contributes to the 5% component which is pretty insignificant in the grand scale of things. I also read a report that the increase in greenhouse gases lags the warming of the earth. The earth warms due to orbital and sun energy and sice the earth is warmin, more evaporation of water occurs, therefore more greenhouse gas. Since global warming and cooling have occurred in the past, why all of a sudden is man the cause of what's happening today?

Bottom line: If indeed global warming continues, there's not a damn thing man can do to stop it.

[Empty Quiver]

I have yet to hear an even mediocre answer to this question. Would someone here please respond.
 
What exactly should the global temperature be?

[thumper113]

Berkeley is the only one who's had the guts to release their full study.  They put it in nice pretty graphs that show without a doubt that global warming is occurring.  You can see that while there have been hot/cold cycles, the cooling cycles aren't as effective as they used to be.

The volcanic eruptions mentioned earlier are the major factor behind the cooling cycle.  The eruptions put sulfur dioxide in the atmosphere which causes the cooling.

Big question they raise in the study is why the difference between daytime and night time temps is growing so rapidly.

And to answer the question, we're about 2.5 degrees warmer than the graphs show we should be based on earlier trends of heating and cooling.

[Conan The Librarian]

There is huge money to be made brokering carbon credits. That's probably what this is all about.

[ironglow]

From Rkeltner;
  " global warming happens, global cooling happens....at the end of the day, climate control is about the control...not the climate!"
  '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''   
 Amen, Amen...  The truth in a nutshell..         
 
 I will start to take the myth seriously when I see Al Gore and his Hollyweird buddies get rid of their Cadillacs in favor of Fiat 500s, dump private jets and move out of their mansions into a fuel-efficent, 2 bedroom ranch.  Then if they start takiong the train instead of flying first class...then they may convince some thinking people that they are not "walking piles of BS", trying to wangle power any way they can. 

[oldandslow]

Mother Earth and the solar system run on their timeclock, not man's. Man has only existed for an eyeblink in that time system. Throw in the fact that he hasn't been smart enough to keep records or even study the earth for a tiny fraction of the time that he has been here and I wonder how he became so sure of his knowledge so quickly.

I totally agree that the climate changes. Man has become smart enough to figure that out from study the evidence provided him. Maybe, just maybe, our emmissions have some tiny, tiny impact on the speed with which the changes occur but I can't believe that it does much at all on such a vast thing as the solar system we exist in.

Again it's about the money and Algore and others have done a very good job of milking the system.

[Shu]

The earth is a giant machine set to function in certain ways. Man is such a tiny player globaly that can effect some change.
Should we dump garbage every where and fill streams with toxic run offs- absolutely not.
When the politicians and other folks start to minimize their carbon foot print then I'll start to be concerned. As a previous poster said when they give up the limos and private jets and stop flying first class I will see the integrity of their concern. Until then, they can shut their lying mouths and let the earth machine work itself through yet another of its cycles.

[BBF]

I watched a program last night that went into this from the  alarmist side of the argument. According to them we will reach the tipping point if the earth temp increases another 2 deg C and huge changes start to happen.
 
 We are 0.8 deg C warmer then it was 100 years ago. The glaciers are melting all over the world now in an increased rate and there is a definite migration of plants and animals northward to find temps. that they are accustomed to.
 

 
 When you gain 3 or 4 extra degrees according to them we will not recognize our world anymore. Northern Canada will be the corn/grain belt of North America and the central USA a dust bowel

Nobody in the scientific world dares to think what may happen if we heat up to an extra 6 deg.
 
If I recall a 2 deg C drop from the present would take us back to another ice age.   
 
Sometimes it is good being old. !

[crustylicious]

It's not about Al Gore, the Bible, errors made during the infant stages of a new field of study, or conspiracy theories. It's about real science.
What should the global temperature be? There is no set temperature. As noted conditions change all the time as the planet goes through cycles. The issue is the rate of change. Temperatures and concentrations of greenhouse gases are rising at unprecedented rates. The souce has been proven to be the burning of fossil fuels.
Believe what you want. Every major scientific organization in the world supports the theory. Governments, corporations and enlightened individuals  are taking steps to address the issue. Questioning the evidence is a time honored scientific process but don't be left thinking the world is flat.
 

[Conan The Librarian]

I'd be delighted if this were a scientific issue. It's not. It's about money. Here is the full argument:
1) Climate is changing
2) Therefore we need to spend trillions of dollars on boondoggles that will have little to no effect other than enriching a few people.

Don't let a sentimental attachment to scientific method cloud your reasoning.

[twoshooter]

OK, lets think about this logically. I believe that if you take the total number of humans alive and divide them into the number of square miles on the planet, the number is greater than 1.0. If everyone were equidistantly spread out, one would never be out of possible sight or sound of another person. That is rather remarkable when you think about it.
    On the farm, one learns the carrying capacity of the land, how many animals can exist there without beginning to starve, or exceed the water supply, or exceed the capacity of the land to reabsorb the waste products. People treat this idea as a joke simply because they have never actually had to experience it first hand. Most out there have simply been able to shift there needs or costs on to someone else. You ask about what one can or should do. If you live up stream from me and continue to dump things into my environment to the point that you are endangering me, then anything I do is self defense, no difference than if you set fire to the field next to my house, poisoned my well, or pointed a gun at me. As is widely acclaimed here, the right to self defense is the FIRST right, the most fundamental. It really does not matter the method of the attack. Nor for that matter does it need to involve intent, nor illegal action. You are not required to allow yourself to be hit by a drunken driver if you can prevent it. Nor by a sober one. Nor by the driver of a bus loaded with tourists.
    So. India, China, what would you do.........................

[jimster]

I'd be delighted if this were a scientific issue. It's not. It's about money. Here is the full argument:
1) Climate is changing
2) Therefore we need to spend trillions of dollars on boondoggles that will have little to no effect other than enriching a few people.

Don't let a sentimental attachment to scientific method cloud your reasoning.

That's about the sum of it all.  It does not matter if there is global warming or not, what causes it or not.  A government emptying our wallets simply won't have an effect either way, except to empty our wallets.  The government could not possibly do anything to help, they can't even close up border, let alone change the earths temperature.  They will however empty our wallets.
 

[mechanic]

Recent archaeology in Greenland shows a temperate climate under the ice cap, with the remains of grape vinyards, and a much higher sea level 1000 years ago.  What caused the global cooling now, or the warming then? 
 
Because I believe God created the earth, I also believe He placed safeguards upon it.  We can make it uncomfortable for ourselves, and even pay a high price for stupidity, but the earth will heal itself.  It will continue as long as God desires it.
 
A documentary on global warming a couple years ago on Nat Geo showed a man standing beside a tree stump where a glacier had retreated.  The story line was that ice had remained here for hundreds or thousands of years and was now retreating.  The tree stump had definite axe marks in it.  It was cut down by man.
 
Ben

[oldandslow]

I'd be delighted if this were a scientific issue. It's not. It's about money. Here is the full argument:
1) Climate is changing
2) Therefore we need to spend trillions of dollars on boondoggles that will have little to no effect other than enriching a few people.

Don't let a sentimental attachment to scientific method cloud your reasoning.

That's about the sum of it all.  It does not matter if there is global warming or not, what causes it or not.  A government emptying our wallets simply won't have an effect either way, except to empty our wallets.  The government could not possibly do anything to help, they can't even close up border, let alone change the earths temperature.  They will however empty our wallets.

I'll agree with you about everything except closing the border. They could close the border if they wanted to. There might be a few able to slip thru because it's so long but they could do a hell of a lot better job than what they are doing.

[Empty Quiver]

And to answer the question, we're about 2.5 degrees warmer than the graphs show we should be based on earlier trends of heating and cooling.

And these trends were recorded from what earlier time? Turn of the century? Beginning of recorded temperature? Beginning of written records? Beginning of Homo Sapiens? Exactly what context is this in?
 
And again 2.5 over what we should be? Is this an opinion or fact? Because what we should be certainly sounds like a very scientific figure.   I'm guessing today we should be 81 degrees and yesterday should have been 74 degrees, unless of course I was in the twin cities in which case should it have been 83 and 76 or still 81 and 74?
 
Who was around taking and recording these precise temperatures during the pleistocene era? Am I to assume since we were not around those temperatures were and are irrelevant? It would seem that by these expert panty wetter standards mans existance is irrelevant. If that is so, how important is the temperature at all? It seems those Whooly Mammoths would have a few thoughts on the environment suited to T-Rex.
 
You are being played for a fool. Send all your money to a politician, and smother yourself. Both proponants of this crap ( the greedy and the human haters ) will be pleased and you can rest assured you are no longer the problem ( nor the solution ).

[P.A. Myers]

Here in CA the real concern is how melting icecaps will affect the surf. We like the big waves only to a point. If the magnum waves take out the beach bars [i dont mean sand] that is a disaster. The entire state of Hawaii may wash away, not good either.

If gore is correct and the world goes full-bore soviet communism, will that cause an ice age?

ride the wild surf!          P.A. 

[Conan The Librarian]

PA Myers:
 
I have the same thoughts about coastal fishing. Forget the apocalypse and anarchy, what's it doing to the spanish mackerel and pompano!!!!???!!!

[kinslayer1965]

This a link to some interesting reading on the global warming issue. Most interesting part to me is that in the data collected from the Vostok ice cores (the source for much of the info in the ICC report to the UN) they show that the rise in CO2 lags behind the rise in temperature and preceeds a cooling trend and has done so for many cycles of heating and cooling. One of my biggest problems with the ICC's report was that they cherry picked a 200year part of the graph that showed the temperature rise to its current level and did not show all of the information from the core data which showed a rise and fall in temperature and co2 that almost looked like a heartbeat when you look at the entire graph.
 
 
 
http://www.petitionproject.org/gw_article/GWReview_OISM150.pdf
 
 

[Curtis]

I have yet to hear an even mediocre answer to this question. Would someone here please respond.
 
What exactly should the global temperature be?

I heard one of the "science guys" get asked that question.  His answer was that there was no "right" temperature, but the problem is that in the last few centuries mankind has developed infrastructure (coastal, agriculture, etc) that depends on the present climate not changing.  I thought that was a very good answer.  What are we going to do when our "breadbasket" will no longer support crops and our "timber reserves" will no longer replenish?  Not to mention coastlines that advance and rivers that change course.
 
Curtis

[ironglow]

  Makes one wonder how the vikings explained the warming period, when they farmed Greenland..and how it got it's name?
  http://www.john-daly.com/hockey/hockey.htm
  Then of course, the Greenland colony was doomed as the cooling period set in  (1300-1500)
 
...But things warmed considerably....temporarily.. (1500-1560)
 
    But then, how did Napoleon explain the unexpectedly cold temperatures as he retreated from Russia and buried many of his troops in Finland.. in a time called "the little ice age".. (1560-1830) 
 
  Then things moderated for a few years..(1830-1870)
 
   But the chill started again..many trains snowed in in the mountains..the blizzard of 1888  (1870-1910)
 
   Now we are in a warming cycle  ..(1910-? )
 
   We have a lot of politicians & celebrities screaming about our fuel use habits bringing on "global warming"..
 
   I think we should ignore what they say...and watch what they do...   As I said previously:
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
     " I will start to take the myth seriously when I see Al Gore and his Hollyweird buddies get rid of their Cadillacs in favor of Fiat 500s, dump private jets and move out of their mansions into a fuel-efficent, 2 bedroom ranch.  Then if they start takiong the train instead of flying first class...then they may convince some thinking people that they are not "walking piles of BS", trying to wangle power any way they can."
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
 
  Until these self-promoted "experts"..Spartanize their personal lifestyles drastically... it's just a phoney-baloney SCAM.

[Empty Quiver]

We will do the same thing as if it were not the fault of man made warming. We will either adapt or not. You are not so foolish as to believe we have any power over this climate change thing do you? How will we go about raising the temps when the inevitable cooling trend comes along? And it would seem that this warming thing is pretty short lived if recent climatology experiences  are any indication.

I have yet to hear an even mediocre answer to this question. Would someone here please respond.
 
What exactly should the global temperature be?

I heard one of the "science guys" get asked that question.  His answer was that there was no "right" temperature, but the problem is that in the last few centuries mankind has developed infrastructure (coastal, agriculture, etc) that depends on the present climate not changing.  I thought that was a very good answer.  What are we going to do when our "breadbasket" will no longer support crops and our "timber reserves" will no longer replenish?  Not to mention coastlines that advance and rivers that change course.
 
Curtis

  Makes one wonder how the vikings explained the warming period, when they farmed Greenland..and how it got it's name?
  http://www.john-daly.com/hockey/hockey.htm
  Then of course, the Greenland colony was doomed as the cooling period set in  (1300-1500)
 
...But things warmed considerably....temporarily.. (1500-1560)
 
    But then, how did Napoleon explain the unexpectedly cold temperatures as he retreated from Russia and buried many of his troops in Finland.. in a time called "the little ice age".. (1560-1830) 
 
  Then things moderated for a few years..(1830-1870)
 
   But the chill started again..many trains snowed in in the mountains..the blizzard of 1888  (1870-1910)
 
   Now we are in a warming cycle  ..(1910-? )
 
   We have a lot of politicians & celebrities screaming about our fuel use habits bringing on "global warming"..
 
   I think we should ignore what they say...and watch what they do...   As I said previously:
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
     " I will start to take the myth seriously when I see Al Gore and his Hollyweird buddies get rid of their Cadillacs in favor of Fiat 500s, dump private jets and move out of their mansions into a fuel-efficent, 2 bedroom ranch.  Then if they start takiong the train instead of flying first class...then they may convince some thinking people that they are not "walking piles of BS", trying to wangle power any way they can."
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
 
  Until these self-promoted "experts"..Spartanize their personal lifestyles drastically... it's just a phoney-baloney SCAM.

Would that be leading by example? I agree whole heartedly Ironglow.