Author Topic: 30-30 ai, is it worth it  (Read 1934 times)

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Offline Jason F

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30-30 ai, is it worth it
« on: August 02, 2012, 11:03:28 PM »
Is the 30-30 ai worth doing, i already have a 30 carbine,300 aac blackout,  308x444 improved and a 30-06 ultra comp in handi rifles. I pretty much got the 30 cal range covered.
handi rifles- 22 mag      22 hornet    223      7mm-08      308 chip shot     30-30 x2     30-06 shorty      358 cheez whiz     357 max     35 remington     375-08    410 rifled slug     454 casull     460 s&w     45 smokeless muzzleloader x2     45-70    50 huntsman    50-70 government shikari     20 ga.ush     12 ga.ush    12 ga.3 1/2     10 ga.imp.cyl. slug gun

Offline jeepmann1948

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Re: 30-30 ai, is it worth it
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2012, 11:14:44 PM »
To me  30-30 AI is a means of making the brass last longer and establishing a positive headspace for the case.I have a lot of AI wildcats and I have found that the gain in velocity is not enough to be the means for rechambering (for most cartridges),
 The original version has and continues to do a very good job. As cheap and plentiful as the brass and ammo is I would not rechamber.If more horsepower is needed go to the 308 or 30-06. Just my opinion.
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Offline gendoc

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Re: 30-30 ai, is it worth it
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2012, 11:18:12 PM »
 + what george said................... reach out an touch sumthin witha .308 8)
an thats my OAS's too...... ;D
sea-ya.....
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Offline bikerbeans

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Re: 30-30 ai, is it worth it
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2012, 12:55:40 AM »
If you want to improve your 30-30 make it a 30 govt. ;D
 
 
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Offline petemi

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Re: 30-30 ai, is it worth it
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2012, 02:08:18 AM »
I'm already getting 2400+ fps. with a 168 gr. Spitzer out of my Handi and almost that with a 150 gr. RN out of my levergun.  My .356 easily outdoes that with a .358 200 gr. PSP.  If more than that is needed, the .308s can take over. ;)

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Offline TedH

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Re: 30-30 ai, is it worth it
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2012, 06:58:33 AM »
Sounds like you have the 30 calibers pretty well covered, but then we dont need a "reason" for doing most of the things we do with our guns. Just because I want to, is all the reason I ever needed. 
 
I haven't done a Handi, but I did ream out a little Marlin 30TK to the 30-30 Ackley Improved.  I got about a 200 fps increase in velocity with 150 gr. bullets.  I'm getting right at 2500 fps from the little 18.5" barreled Marlin levergun.  Improved case life is another thing to consider, but not very important to me just because 30-30 brass is so plentiful and cheap. 
 
Any critter shot with it will not know the difference between the standard 30-30 and the Ackley version, and it's not going to do a whole lot for straightening out the trajectory.  So whether or not it's worth it, can only be answered by you.  I like to tinker and have something different, so in my case it was definately worth it. 
 

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 30-30 ai, is it worth it
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2012, 08:08:02 AM »
Heck yeah if that's whatcha want, it's an easy hand rechamber in a Handi and with the GBO reamer donated by Larry, cost ya about $25 and a little time!!  ;D

Tim

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Offline twoshooter

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Re: 30-30 ai, is it worth it
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2012, 12:50:24 PM »
OK OK, cats out of the bag!!! Where did the  300 AAC come from?? Just for thread purposes- probably not- if you want to go bigger and be classy go 30/40 Krag. Now back to the 300............... you need to 'fess up, start another thread PDQ............
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Offline 44 Man

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Re: 30-30 ai, is it worth it
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2012, 02:40:21 PM »
I can't tell you what you should, but I want an AI so bad!  But I'll have to wait until I get another barrel because my old 30-30 shoots so good that I feel I don't dare to touch it.  I have a friend with a Savage 219 in 30-30 AI that he loaned me for a while.  I had a ball working up loads and shooting it!  I have a dummy round from it and it is so cool.  You don't need a reason, just do it!  44 Man
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Offline alan in ga

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Re: 30-30 ai, is it worth it
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2012, 02:08:31 AM »
It's a fun cartridge. Magic kinda...in goes a slope shouldered thutty thutty case, out comes a racing full bodied, short necked 'correct' looking case.
I did it to my Handi Rifle about 15 years ago [don't remember really]. I would recommend doing it in a lathe if you can although it can be done by hand as well if careful [taking care to blow out chips with each small amount of cutting].
I've built several Ackley Improved rifles as well as switch barrel bolt rifles. Your question is one that comes up a lot. I would say yes it's worth it..because: you want to 'try it'. It's not a bad modification to an inexpensive rifle, and if done right it is an enjoyable round. I shot several deer with my Handi in 30/30AI as well as other barrels I had NEF fit to it. My 30/30AI barrel would touch the first 3 shots at 100 yards, and start slinging the 4th and 5th shots 3" and 7" out in the same pattern for every 5 shot group I shot if I shot with the same cadence  between shots. This is totally acceptable as the barrel fit was tight. A tightly fitted Handi barrel has no where 'to go' if it heats up and expands when shot so it was not a suprise to me to see 4th and next shots fly out of the group. First 3 under an inch is TOTALLY acceptable, might say DESIRABLE for a deer hunter. A 10 minute cool down after a group was fired would bring it's capability back to 'first 3 touching'. Actually this had nothing to do with it being an Ackley, it did the same when it was a standard chamber.....it's just a quirk of a tightly fitted Handi barrel, and not a bad thing.
I think one reason to do your 30/30AI is because you are curious, and 'not' doing it may always leave you wondering. Actual advantages to do the AI is longer case life for one, but who wears out 30/30 brass anyway? If your a gun range scrounger, you probably can find and pickup all the once fired 30/30 cases you will EVER need if you visit the range the 2 weeks before gun season opener in your area.
Dies? Now you can buy inexpensive LEE dies in 30/30AI. When I did mine the AI dies were a bit high. I used a .308 Winchester full length die to NECK size my 30/30AI cases, usually just a caliber's length down the neck. I used the standard 30/30 Win seater die to seat bullets. I did FL size my pickup cases in the standard 30/30 Win FL die to start with. After several loadings I still did not need to FL size my 30/30 Ackley fired cases. I had so many once fired 30/30 Win cases that if I did find some AI cases needing to be full length sized I could just start over with once fired 30/30 cases that had been run through a standard 30/30 FL die. I do have a 30/30 Ack Imp die set now but aquired them only recently when I had a Contender barrel in 30/30AI for a while.
When and if you cut your chamber to AI, be SURE to give FULL ATTENTION to the rim recess. The 30/30AI reamer I use will cut a tad larger diameter than the factory barrel rim recess in the barrels I have AI'd. This allows you to see the cutting progress so as to not deepen your barrel's rim recess AT ALL. If you do it will increase the headspace the same amount and most factory barrels in 30/30 are already sloppy and about max in dimension. You or your smith do NOT want to cut it any deeper! The rim recess in the barrel is used for only the first firing as headspace control. All reloads after the first fireforming will be headspaced on the shoulder, or should be. You can 'depend' on the rim to hold the case but a chamber shoulder is the best way to 'hold' the case in place. It will allow longer case life. I neck size only - you don't want to push the shoulder back at all. If you get fired cases that don't want to 'easily' rechamber then you probably are loading to too high a pressure - not a good or safe practise.
I have to agree with the posts that say if you want a 'hot' 30/30, AI or standard, it can be done fairly easily......by buying a .308 Win! Ha!
Just yesterday I gave a box of .375 Win brass away to a friend with a Marlin .375 Win. I had necked them down to 30/30 to fireform for my  [long ago sold] 30/30AI Handi rifle. I was thinking a 50,000 psi design case would allow me to 'bump up' some pressures and velocity. I reconsidered and decided the 30/30 should still be a 30/30 and does not need any spinach [as in Popeye] to boost it up.
I've gotten to like the 30/30 Winchester in standard form. You can load it to almost what you could with it it in Ackley Improved form. Longer case life would be nice with an Ackley Improved, buy hey!....we walk all over fired left behind 30/30 Win cases at the ranges anyway!
So..hmmmm...what you gonna do?!

Offline 44 Man

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Re: 30-30 ai, is it worth it
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2012, 06:19:21 AM »
Well, here's what I learned when using my buddy's Savage 219 30-30AI.  His gun was fun to shoot.  While a standard 30-30 uses 34 gr of H4895, I was able to work up two more in his AI with pointed 150 gr core loc's.  His gun would lock up if you worked much above that.  (I don't know the pressure, Quick could tell you that and est velocity).  So with a 2 gr increase in powder, I'm sure the pressure increase and velocity increase was very modest at best in the larger AI case.  I'm sure with lighter bullets, and in a Handi, you could get up into .300 Savage territory but with a rim.  The cartridge itself really looks neat!  Again, looks a little like a 300 Savage with a rim.  We know that a Handi will easily handle .308 pressures, but I don't feel that 30-30 brass should be pushed that far.  Somewhere in the middle between 30-30 and 308 pressure should result in good case life, good preformance, and a useful cartridge.  Do I need one?  Probably not to shoot whitetail deer at mostly well under 100 yds in Michigan's woods.  Do I want one?  Dang right I do!  44 Man.
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Offline Jason F

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Re: 30-30 ai, is it worth it
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2012, 07:22:53 AM »
Well its settled, gonna ream it
handi rifles- 22 mag      22 hornet    223      7mm-08      308 chip shot     30-30 x2     30-06 shorty      358 cheez whiz     357 max     35 remington     375-08    410 rifled slug     454 casull     460 s&w     45 smokeless muzzleloader x2     45-70    50 huntsman    50-70 government shikari     20 ga.ush     12 ga.ush    12 ga.3 1/2     10 ga.imp.cyl. slug gun

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 30-30 ai, is it worth it
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2012, 07:40:03 AM »
I used 375 Win brass in my 30-30AI Handi, QL predicted my max load runs 60kpsi which is about what the 375 Win operates at(52kcup).  ;)

Tim
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Offline LaOtto222

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Re: 30-30 ai, is it worth it
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2012, 01:51:10 AM »
I used 375 Win brass in my 30-30AI Handi, QL predicted my max load runs 60kpsi which is about what the 375 Win operates at(52kcup).  ;)

Tim

I have the 30-30 AI dies (Hornady) and 200 375 Win brass. The chamber still needs to be reamed. If I remember correctly, you needed to neck turn the cases, so they would fit in the chamber....yes or no? If you did, how much did you take off?

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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 30-30 ai, is it worth it
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2012, 03:30:59 AM »
I have the 30-30 AI dies (Hornady) and 200 375 Win brass. The chamber still needs to be reamed. If I remember correctly, you needed to neck turn the cases, so they would fit in the chamber....yes or no? If you did, how much did you take off?

Good Luck and Good Shooting

Wasn't much, maybe .0005"-.001".

Tim
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Offline Jason F

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Re: 30-30 ai, is it worth it
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2012, 09:44:02 AM »
Got the reamer today.  Thanks tim. Already fired some new brass loaded with trail boss and some ftx bullets. Pretty neat looking cartridge. Got some regular 30-30 brass in picture for comparison.
handi rifles- 22 mag      22 hornet    223      7mm-08      308 chip shot     30-30 x2     30-06 shorty      358 cheez whiz     357 max     35 remington     375-08    410 rifled slug     454 casull     460 s&w     45 smokeless muzzleloader x2     45-70    50 huntsman    50-70 government shikari     20 ga.ush     12 ga.ush    12 ga.3 1/2     10 ga.imp.cyl. slug gun

Offline Jason F

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Re: 30-30 ai, is it worth it
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2012, 12:19:05 PM »
Just wondering if my 308x444 improved sizer will neck size this.
handi rifles- 22 mag      22 hornet    223      7mm-08      308 chip shot     30-30 x2     30-06 shorty      358 cheez whiz     357 max     35 remington     375-08    410 rifled slug     454 casull     460 s&w     45 smokeless muzzleloader x2     45-70    50 huntsman    50-70 government shikari     20 ga.ush     12 ga.ush    12 ga.3 1/2     10 ga.imp.cyl. slug gun

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: 30-30 ai, is it worth it
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2012, 12:56:45 PM »
It should at least partial neck size.

Tim
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Offline Jason F

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Re: 30-30 ai, is it worth it
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2012, 01:49:42 PM »
I just tried it, it will only do about 1/4 of neck thats it. Gonna have to order a die set.
handi rifles- 22 mag      22 hornet    223      7mm-08      308 chip shot     30-30 x2     30-06 shorty      358 cheez whiz     357 max     35 remington     375-08    410 rifled slug     454 casull     460 s&w     45 smokeless muzzleloader x2     45-70    50 huntsman    50-70 government shikari     20 ga.ush     12 ga.ush    12 ga.3 1/2     10 ga.imp.cyl. slug gun

Offline alan in ga

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Re: 30-30 ai, is it worth it
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2012, 02:26:01 PM »
1/4 of the neck may be plenty for a single shot rifle.

Offline Ranch13

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Re: 30-30 ai, is it worth it
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2012, 03:22:31 PM »
You'll find that powder that is usually considered to slow for the 30-30 really make the ai shine. After all you're not shooting a 30-30 anymore you're shooting more of a rimmed 300 savage.
RL15 is the best in accuracy and velocity in my rifle. Ramshot biggame while not exceptional in the velocity dept is spectacular in the accuracy. H 414 has shown some hints of really wanting to work great with heavy bullets.748 works well across the spectrum and 2400 with 22/30sabot rounds .
Keep an eye on your chrono when doing load work up, and when you hit 150-200 fps over what you got with the original chamber it's time to slowdown and proceed with caution if at all.
 Hornady's 30-30 ai die's work quite well for me.
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: 30-30 ai, is it worth it
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2012, 05:10:33 AM »
{the voice in my head speaking}
" No no no, you don't need a improved 30-30. If your thinking along these lines go 30 govt. then your so close to the 307/308 you ALREADY own..  Yea yea you do have the extra 30/30 barrel.... NO NO you DON'T. Need another caliber..."

;)

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Offline 44 Man

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Re: 30-30 ai, is it worth it
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2012, 11:00:20 AM »
CWLongshot, I agree.  Once you have a 30-30 and an '06 or .300 win mag, you have no need of anything else.  But that has nothing to do with our decision does it?  We WANT it!!!!!!!  That's all the reason we need.  Heck, if we just bought rifles we NEEDED, the rifle industry would be dead!  Good thing it's alive and well, and good thing we buy according to our wants, not our needs.  :)  44 Man
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