Author Topic: Russian ammo for the 7.62 Nagant revolver. (Read 6386 times)

coyotejoe · « **on:** July 28, 2012, 09:18:47 AM »

If anyone is looking for some cheap factory loaded ammo for a Nagant Revolver, Graf & Sons has the Russian FMJ military ammo in 14 round boxes at $4.59 per. Of course it is Berdan primed and corrosive but if you don't intend to reload and don't' mind cleaning your gun this is about as cheap as it's likely to get and the original Russian ammo is pretty good stuff.
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/24718

Airsporter · « **Reply #1 on:** September 22, 2012, 07:57:10 AM »

I'm going to give it a try - just bought some from AIM. The Serbian commercial stuff has a wierd case mouth configuration (compared to original Russian ammo). It does not allow my Nagant to lock-up/fire reliably - except in double action mode. Seems like it is too fat at the front and doesn't let the cylinder go forward enough in single action. The old 'yellow box' Russian lead target ammo works fine. Maybe a throat issue. But I plan to reload it and those cases are the only boxer primed stuff around

coyotejoe · « **Reply #2 on:** October 25, 2012, 05:02:33 AM »

As a bit of an update, I got four boxes of that from AIM at $4.75 per box. That price seems attractive until they added on the $15.51 for shipping, that made the total price 61 cents per pop. I broke down one cartridge to see what it contained. There was 5 grains of a short stick powder and a 106 grain FMJ bullet. The case has the long taper crimp ahead of the bullet and two dimple crimp spots into the bullet to prevent it receding deeper into the case. Those two dimples actually squeezed the bullet out of round, it measured .305" across the dimples and .307" the other way. That seems pretty undersized for the Nagant bore, my own revolver has a groove diameter of .311" and I've heard others run larger but they are what they are. I ran one cylinder full through my chronograph and got an average velocity of 908 fps. and the seven shot group at 25 yards measured 3 1/4". Fired cases didn't quite fall out but needed only a tap of a fingertip on the case mouth to pop them free, I didn't have to resort to the Nagant ejector rod.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #3 on:** October 25, 2012, 05:06:08 AM »

Forgot to post the photo! This shows the Nagant bullet and powder charge. If you look closely at the bullet you can see a dimple where the case was crimped into the bullet hard enough to squeeze the bullet out of round.

Airsporter · « **Reply #4 on:** October 25, 2012, 10:40:59 AM »

Quote from: coyotejoe on October 25, 2012, 05:02:33 AM

As a bit of an update, I got four boxes of that from AIM at $4.75 per box. That price seems attractive until they added on the $15.51 for shipping, that made the total price 61 cents per pop.

Ammo is heavy and shipping is a big factor, as are hazmat charges for powder ($27.50 + shipping). A case of this ammo (1092 rds) from AIM to my address comes in at 31 cents a round. So, my question is: Is it worth 31 cents per round (about $15/50)?
I bought 10 boxes, with some other stuff, but have not shot any yet.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #5 on:** October 25, 2012, 11:04:07 AM »

Well, it does fire and seems reasonably accurate despite the bullet being out of round and under bore size. If you can get it for $15.00 per 50 rounds, that's pretty good for any factory loaded ammo these days, if you really want to shoot a Nagant that much. It is corrosive but you probably will never find a better price.

darkgael · « **Reply #6 on:** October 28, 2012, 12:45:28 AM »

Quote

Well, it does fire and seems reasonably accurate despite the bullet being out of round and under bore size.

Bore size vs. bullet diameter is always a conundrum with regard to the Nagant ammo. Grafs also sells bullets for the Nagant revolver....a 98 grain jacketed DEWC at .308".

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/5400
I have used them. They work.
Go figure.
Pete

coyotejoe · « **Reply #7 on:** October 28, 2012, 03:51:28 AM »

When you say "they work" I would like to hear "how well". Can you give us some idea as to group size at 25 yards?

BUGEYE · « **Reply #8 on:** October 28, 2012, 05:21:55 AM »

backwoodsman magazine recently had a good article on this gun, along with all the different modern ammo that's usable in it.
it seems that this durable old gun would make a good backup SHTF gun.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #9 on:** October 28, 2012, 10:44:02 AM »

When people hype the use of the wrong ammo in Nagant revolvers they always seem to leave a few points unsaid. Like the point that .32 S&W, .32 S&W long and .32 H&R magnum ammo is hardly more widly avalilable than the 7.62 Nagant ammo and generally those "alternatives" cost more than proper 7.62 Nagant ammo. The larger point left unsaid is that while those substitutes may go bang you can't expect ever half-assed accuracy. The Nagant revolver and its ammo are designed to work together as a system. The 38 mm long cartridge case extends out the front of the cylinder and enteres a recess in the rear of the bore. It not only serves as the gas seal, which is the whole point of the Nagant design, but it also serves to guide the bullet straight and centered into the bore. The Nagant chamber is cut large enough to accomodate both the bullet and the surrounding cartridge brass. Take away the brass, as when firing a shorter case, and the bullet is left to wobble unguided through a chamber some .020"-.030" larger than bullet diameter with nothing to keep it running straight and centered before it slams into the bore, which has no forcing cone to help center up a cockeyed bullet.
The Nagant can be a fine, light weight and accurate small game gun but only with proper ammo. I've been working with handloads for my Nagant and have been getting groups of 1.5"-3.0" at 25 yards, none of those "alternative cartridges" will do that well at 25 FEET! Firing the wrong ammo just because you can is really not very bright. One can, for example, fire 25/35, 30/30, 32 Winchester special, 32/40, 38/55, .375 Winchester and 44/40 rifle rounds from a .410 shotgun. But is there ever a good reason to do that?

1911crazy · « **Reply #10 on:** October 29, 2012, 09:28:54 AM »

I been buying the 7,62 nagant russian ammo for a while now but i never shot it yet.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #11 on:** October 29, 2012, 09:52:51 AM »

Well cheezewhiz Mr. Crazy, get out and shoot some, that's what it's made for.

BUGEYE · « **Reply #12 on:** October 29, 2012, 09:57:30 AM »

well coyotejoe, didn't mean to piss you off. of course the gun shoots best with nagant ammo.
but the various .32s can be cheaply reloaded and brass is available.

that wasn't too much HYPE was it??

coyotejoe · « **Reply #13 on:** October 29, 2012, 10:17:49 AM »

Oh hey not pissed off that's just my style of writing, I lay out the facts and let the chips fall where they will. It's good though that you mention reloading the .32's. Aside from the fact that accuracy is so poor it's not worth firing them in the first place, you also can't reload them once fired in a Nagant revolver, at least that was the case with the seven .32 S&W Long rounds I fired in mine. The Nagant chamber is so much larger that the .32 brass expands too much to start into a .32 S&W size die. In addition to hopelessly poor accuracy the wrong ammo also looses power due to gas blow-by in the grossly oversize chamber. There is just not a good word to be said for the practice of shooting the wrong ammo in any gun but especially the Nagant which is designed very specifically for only it's own ammo.

BUGEYE · « **Reply #14 on:** October 29, 2012, 10:47:01 AM »

Quote from: coyotejoe on October 29, 2012, 10:17:49 AM

Oh hey not pissed off that's just my style of writing, I lay out the facts and let the chips fall where they will. It's good though that you mention reloading the .32's. Aside from the fact that accuracy is so poor it's not worth firing them in the first place, you also can't reload them once fired in a Nagant revolver, at least that was the case with the seven .32 S&W Long rounds I fired in mine. The Nagant chamber is so much larger that the .32 brass expands too much to start into a .32 S&W size die. In addition to hopelessly poor accuracy the wrong ammo also looses power due to gas blow-by in the grossly oversize chamber. There is just not a good word to be said for the practice of shooting the wrong ammo in any gun but especially the Nagant which is designed very specifically for only it's own ammo.

I wish I still had that issue of backwoodsman, the author didn't seen to have those problems. but then authors can embellish the facts some...

coyotejoe · « **Reply #15 on:** October 29, 2012, 11:20:18 AM »

Well it's like I said, they tend to leave a few points unspoken. Also, lots of people just don't really expect much accuracy from a handgun, if they can hit a 5 gallon bucket at 20 feet as often as not they are happy campers. I do expect accuracy, if a handgun won't keep all it's shots in no worse than a 3" group at 25 yards I just see no point in owning it, much less carrying it. I will make exception for a big bore weapon strictly for personal defense since that normally is a very close range affair, with fairly large targets and no one shoots really well under stress of life & death. But for a small caliber pistol, good only for small game, accuracy is what it is all about, and the Nagant is capable, but only with proper ammo. Substituting the wrong ammo in a Nagant is exactly like the example of firing 30/30 cartridges in a .410 shotgun, you can safely do that but don't expect it to be good for much. I have an article on reloading the Nagant about finished and ready to send off to the Backwoodsman and I will definitely stress the point that only Nagant ammo really "fits" a Nagant revolver.

BUGEYE · « **Reply #16 on:** October 29, 2012, 11:25:55 AM »

Quote from: coyotejoe on October 29, 2012, 11:20:18 AM

I have an article on reloading the Nagant about finished and ready to send off to the Backwoodsman and I will definitely stress the point that only Nagant ammo really "fits" a Nagant revolver.

I'll be watching for it.

darkgael · « **Reply #17 on:** October 30, 2012, 02:47:36 AM »

Quote

When you say "they work" I would like to hear "how well". Can you give us some idea as to group size at 25 yards?

No, unfortunately, I can't. The Nagant pistol is not one that I have ever shot for group size.
Pete

coyotejoe · « **Reply #18 on:** November 06, 2012, 08:11:49 AM »

This is what you get when you fire .32 S&W long from a 7.62x38mm Nagant revolver. It was a handload of an 85 grain bullet over 3.2 grains of Unique, which according to the Lyman #49 manual should do about 800 fps. They averaged only 669 fps from the Nagant, indicating that not only accuracy but also velocity is lost when .32 caliber ammo is fired from the Nagant revolver. The cases which didn't split were expanded to .354" just ahead of the base, that's .020" over spec.
This is a dumb idea, leave it to Bubba and his less bright brother.

S.S. · « **Reply #19 on:** November 12, 2012, 12:24:17 PM »

I decided to try it with .32 S&W Long cartridges.
Fired 3 rounds, all three split the case. Decided not to damage my gun
by firing any more

BUGEYE · « **Reply #20 on:** November 12, 2012, 02:21:55 PM »

If there is problems with firing other ammo, I wonder why backwoodsman allowed it to be printed.
in todays law-suit-happy atmosphere it could be trouble.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #21 on:** November 13, 2012, 03:09:39 AM »

The "Backwoodsman" magazine is good reading but some of the suggestions presented therein may be a bit sketchy.

With that said however, I don't think there really is any great danger since .32 S&W long ammo is factory loaded to very mild pressures out of respect for all the flimsy old top break .32 revolvers still floating around. When .32 long ammo is fired in a Nagant revolver pressure is still further reduced due to powder gas blowing past the bullet in the greatly oversize chamber. The cartridge never builds full pressure nor achieves normal velocity. You can safely fire .30/30 rifle cartridges from a .410 shotgun for that reason, the gas blows past the bullet and pressure is vented away. But just because you can do it doesn't make it a good idea.

cybin · « **Reply #22 on:** December 06, 2012, 10:39:06 AM »

There is a guy who comes to this board that will dispute you Joe. He has 2 nagants that he changed the cylinder for the one that shoots .32 auto--he then reamed out the bores of the cylinder to take the .32 H&R mag. He claims both of them out shoot his ruger .32 Mag. This discussion has gone on for years. Look into past post concerning the nagant revolvers to see his post.
Once you get your revolver set up to shoot the .32 mag. it does become reloadable--and thus a bit cheaper to shoot. How accurate--all depends on the barrel--and the shooter.

cybin

coyotejoe · « **Reply #23 on:** December 06, 2012, 12:07:46 PM »

Well yes, of course you can get aftermarket cylinders for .32 ACP and for a couple of hundred dollars you can get a gunsmith to recut those chambers to .32 H&R mag. Or, for about the same money you could buy a .32 H&R mag revolver in the first place. I guess I assumed too much when I assumed we were talking about unmodified Nagant revolvers. And I still very much doubt that modified revolver will outshoot an unmodified Nagant with proper ammo. Nagant revolvers have done very well in international target shooting, holding their own with the very best and beating most, but they did it with proper ammo. Oh, and by the way, even with a modifed aftermarket cylinder the barrel still has no forcing cone, if you want to correct that it's going to cost you another hundred or so. Now you have a 500 dollar custom .32 H&R Nagant that won't do anything any better than the one hunderd dollar Nagant with proper ammo.

cybin · « **Reply #24 on:** December 26, 2012, 05:31:54 AM »

The one thing I guess I do over look is that I do most of my own gunsmithing--reaming a cylinder isn't that difficult to do. A forcing cone isn't much of a problem either--but for people with few skills,and no machinist friends--well it could be a problem. But for those who posess a few skills and have access to either a good drill press or better yet a milling machine--the few tools you would need are readily available---either from Brownells--or Manhatten supply, and I bet that there are people using the gun smithing forums who can walk someone through the precess in easily understandable language.
cybin

coyotejoe · « **Reply #25 on:** December 26, 2012, 05:59:58 AM »

You also overlook the fact that one can't just "ream" a proper forcing cone into a Nagant barrel. You would first need to face off the rear of the barrel to eliminate the case seat, then turn down the OD at the rear to match the Nagant cylinder recess, modify the ejector housing to allow the barrel to be threaded deeper into the frame and for all of that you still won't be improving the revolver, you'll only be making it work with different ammo. So yeah, for five or six hundred bucks over the original cost of the gun, you will have a Nagant which fires .32 H&R ammo, but it still won't actually do anthing better than the stock one hundred dollar Nagant with Nagant ammo.

cybin · « **Reply #26 on:** December 26, 2012, 02:38:39 PM »

Wrong. All you need is a back counter bore and champering bit--you won't be making a competition revolver out of it--but it will do the job very well. Gosh you sure go to a lot of work to do something simple. As for boring out the cylinders--you need the appropiate size reamer--there isn't all that much to remove--you are only going a bit deeper.
cybin

coyotejoe · « **Reply #27 on:** December 27, 2012, 02:47:47 AM »

Now that's a laugh. I was talking about doing the job right. If you want to "keep it simple" that would be to leave the gun alone, it works fine as is and the Nagant revolver is capable of competition accuracy just the way it comes, why ruin it with a half assed conversion? Nagant ammo is available, can be reloaded and is what the gun was designed to fire. The difference in cost between a Nagant and let's say a new Ruger SP-101 would buy a lot of Nagant ammo.

cybin · « **Reply #28 on:** December 27, 2012, 09:36:56 AM »

If I remember correctly from over a year ago you didn't like these guns at all, and was totally down on them--so why even get into a discussion about them? You have little credability IMO--so let the folks read all of the post on the Nagant revolver and draw their own conclusions. IMO a .32 caliber handgun is just a toy anyway--something to play with--and since the last Nagants I saw for sale was at Cabela's going for $100 --a cheap toy to play with.
cybin

coyotejoe · « **Reply #29 on:** December 27, 2012, 10:35:07 AM »

Well if you are capable of comprehending what you read you would understand that I have always considered the Nagant revolver to be a sick joke as a military handgun. It is underpowered, unshootable in double action, terribly slow and difficult to reload and was obsolete before it was adopted as a military handgun. None of those criticisms effect the Nagant for use as a small game and trail packing gun, but use of the wrong ammo does, since a small game and trail gun needs to be accurate. The hundred dollar Nagant is capable of excellent accuracy, with proper ammo, it is light weight, safe to carry and shoot and for the price of the gun one shouldn't be too put out if they have to go to the bother of ordering ammo online. Realistically you probably won't go through a ton of ammo anyway so why not shoot the good stuff?