35-120 quesion.

[noyb72]

This is a question for Quick and others who are in the know. I want a long range handi for elk that is different. The 35 Whelen is fantastic but I'd like some more gas for heavier bullets. I'm thinking a .475 basic case necked to .358 with a standard AI neck and shoulder. My question is how long should the case be? Basically, it seems to me that you can match a higher pressure 45-x case with the same case head thrust as a 45-x+ case. So, would a 45-90 case give me all I can get at high pressure or would the 45-120 have the advantage? I ask because I will shoot this alot and the price between 45-90 and 45-120 is considerable (Norma vs Starline).

Thanks
Ron

[eskimo36]

Look at a rechamber to a 35 WCF. It is basically a necked down 405 Winchester that was originally chambered in the Winchester 1895 lever action.

[LaOtto222]

Random thoughts

The 35 Whelen is not enough...really? It is considered just a baby step below a magnum, big enough for large bears. If you want more punch than that, then you are truly need a very large case. You have to be careful about case diameter and breech pressure. The larger the diameter, the more pressure effects the breech face. When you get so big, the pressure needs to drop to be safe. There are diminishing returns , I would think for going too big. Of course the 45-120 is a big case and people have loaded them up to pretty high pressures...higher than I would like. I know that magnum cases have been experimented with in the Handi rifle and for the most part have had disappointing (failures) results. Putting the 35-120 with enough pressure to out do a 30-06 case may get over your breech face pressure limit. This is all speculation on my part, I have no real experience with large high pressure cases. I just know that the 30-06 is high pressure and the Handi handles it well. I was under the impression, that it was at the upper end of what the Handi would handle.

When Quick sees this he will have a comment, I am sure. He has done a lot of experimenting (first hand experience) with the bigger cases and what it takes to be safe.

Good Luck and Good Shooting
 

[quickdtoo]

A safe round in the Handi is all dependent on breech force, a 270 Win @65kpsi creates a ball park breech force of a little over 11k lbs, keep the load at or below that and it should work fine. Breech force(bolt thrust, see Lilja link) is dependent on inside case head area(not rim diameter) and the pressure, using the outside case head diameter gives you a ball park figure for comparing different cartridges. As LaOtto said, the bigger the case head, the lower the pressure needs to be, the 270 Win at .470" and a SAAMI MAP of 65kpsi is a good one to use as a maximum for comparison. I've tried a 300WSM Handi with reduced loads, case head is .555", I couldn't equal 30-06 150gr velocities without action flex. I have a 376 Steyr Handi, it has a .500" case head(Hornady brass) and a SAAMI MAP of ~60kpsi but Hornady ammo is loaded to 58kpsi which provides just a little more breech thrust than the 270 Win, 11.4k lbs vs 11.2k lbs, and seems to work fine, I've had good accuracy with 235gr Speers at 2700fps just in break-in with only a few rounds fired thru the newly rebore barrel. You can use this hydraulic cylinder pressure calculator for making comparison, just use the cylinder bore and pressure fields. 

Tim


http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/custom_actions/bolt_lug_strength.htm

http://stevespages.com/page8d.htm

http://www.baumhydraulics.com/calculators/cyl_calc.htm

[quickdtoo]

I neglected to answer all your question, 45-90 vs 45-120, the biggest advantage of the larger case is you can achieve the same velocity and lower pressures, for example the 45-120 will push a 500gr bullet 1800fps at~31kpsi, the 45-70 does the same thing at 50kpsi, the 45-90 would be somewhere in between. The trade off is more powder is used which equals more recoil since the weight of the powder is part of the recoil equation.

Tim

[Jason F]

Is there even a reamer available for something like this? 45-120 brass necked down to 35 cal

[tykempster]

You could always have a reamer made for cheap.  And then you'd need to anneal to neck down the brass and fireform.  Then probably turn the necks so it wasn't too thick.  I would try and mock up a case first before you have a reamer made.

It would undoubtedly be fast.  I don't think I'd pick 35 caliber for long range.  Do 338 or 375.

[quickdtoo]

You could always have a reamer made for cheap. 

If $150 is cheap, I guess so, seems to me that's what Clymer and PTG want for a custom reamer, Manson wants $170-$200.

Tim

[tykempster]

I bet he could find one person on this site that would do that caliber with him.  Or split the cost with a smith.  It would certainly be a unique round.

[noyb72]

No, the 35 Whelen isn't enough. I am looking for heavy bullets at several hundred yards. I have done enough wildcats to know the game, I also have a relative that is a master machinest and can turn reamer and dies for the cost of the steel. I have seen some 450 NEs on here, and they actually may be better because there are lots of 35 Rem Ultra mag wildcats I could use. The 404 is nothing but a rimless 450/400. Ross Seyfried made a full length 33G&A #2 for a Farq falling block, I'm basically looking at the same thing.

I have a fast 33, and the 375 I will buy this year will be a H&H. It won't be a H&H centennial but I wish it was.

Thanks Quick, I guess getting quickload will help.

Ron

[LaOtto222]

For a long range cartridge with some punch way out there, it would be hard to beat a 338 Winchester Magnum. You can push a 250 grain bullet at 2600+ fps with a BC in the neighborhood of .430. That will give you a bunch of energy at 500 yards yet. Of course being a large diameter magnum, would not work in a Handy, you would need a good bolt gun. If I recall correctly Sourdough shot a big bear at 600 yards with one, now that is punch.

Good Luck and Good Shooting