Author Topic: comparing a 45/70 govt. to the S/W 500 for a brush gun? (Read 2333 times)

ashae70 · « **on:** May 12, 2012, 04:35:34 PM »

I have had a 45/70 in the past and loved it but the recoil makes my 12 ga. seem light. I plan to hunt in some thick missouri tree lines and want the kenetic energy and ballistic effects to be dead on at atleast 100 yrd. I will load my own rounds and pretty much know what powders and bullets to use but i am just wanting a good comparison as to which is actually better and wont kill the shoulder.

gendoc · « **Reply #1 on:** May 12, 2012, 11:54:51 PM »

ok, you asked....45/70 for many reasons, in my opinion

petemi · « **Reply #2 on:** May 12, 2012, 11:59:52 PM »

"and ballistic effects to be dead on at at least 100 yrd."

Soon after 100 yards the .500 starts dropping like a rock. It's a pistol bullet. The .45-70's rifle bullet will reach out a long way if you do your homework. I'm confident with mine to 300 yards. I don't understand the recoil problem. Loaded hot with a 405 gr. bullet at 1950 fps. my .45-70's recoil, to me, seems less than a 12 ga. rifled slug. But, I guess everyone perceives recoil differently. I much prefer shooting my .45-70 over the .500's muzzle blast and recoil. If the .45-70 bothers you, I don't think you'll like the .500's attitude at all. You may want to consider another caliber. My shortie .38-55 or .356 would do all you're looking for.

Pete

Dave Pitcher · « **Reply #3 on:** May 13, 2012, 12:40:27 AM »

45/70.

jimbobb55 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 13, 2012, 02:38:22 AM »

45/70 here too.

mo_bio · « **Reply #5 on:** May 13, 2012, 03:11:46 AM »

45-70

thejanitor · « **Reply #6 on:** May 13, 2012, 04:24:19 AM »

To me either bullet will deflect if it contacts anything on the way to the target but a 45-70 is what I have and like. And like Pete says it will take game out a long ways if you learn how to shoot the round to potential. thejanitor

Dave Pitcher · « **Reply #7 on:** May 13, 2012, 05:11:08 AM »

True but to an extent only--
I hunt in woods and brush and a 45/70 bullet doesn't get deflected much by brush----or saplings.

BulletBrain · « **Reply #8 on:** May 13, 2012, 05:30:50 AM »

My recoil pad takes most of the pain away. This is on my Buffalo Classic. It's a 1.375" magnum size medium from Kick-Eze. $45 for the pad with shipping. (you can find much cheaper I am sure) $45 for the install. I think it also made my 45-70 more accurate. I think it is not as dependant on shoulder position as the hooked metal piece that was on there. The recoil made the butt of the gun go up or down if it was not perfectly centered. At least that was a theory presented to me on this board and seemed to hold true in a less than statistically significant experiment. I cut the experiment short and installed the pad and never looked back. Ordered another pad for my 12 guage pardner. I wish you the best shooting with either caliber. Whenever you shoot a Handi, you're cool.

twoshooter · « **Reply #9 on:** May 13, 2012, 07:05:53 AM »

OK. I am happy to go against the grain here. I have shot several 45/70's , Marlin, Ruger, and Handi. Anyone who tells you that a 405 gr slug at nearly 2000 fps in a handi has reasonable recoil is just blowing smoke up your kilt. The guys here are great, helpful and courteous, but there is still a group that is somewhat masochistic, and delights in pouring ever more powder into cases an stuffing heavier and heavier bullets on top. If you are into punishment, go for it.

I have been hunting deer here in Missouri for 44 years now, and I have killed many deer with the 45/70, my longest kill was 188 yards, one shot, DRT. The load was 33.5 gr of 4198 and a 322 gr HP Lyman 457122 bullet. The last deer I killed was the 10 pointer that I posted a picture here of in the "Handi success stories" last fall. It was taken at 92 yards with a 500 S&W, a 435 gr Lee cast bullet, and 21 gr of Blue Dot. The bullet passed cleanly through both shoulders and went 16" into the ground, and I recovered it, minimal deformation. It kicks about like a standard field load in a 20 ga, maybe a little less. That load in my gun produces a 1.5 " 5 shot group @ 75 yards, which is what my sight in distance is.
If you want a bigger bang, that is quite fine, but dont let anyone tell you that the 500 wont work just fine out to 150 yards, and is a great deer and hog gun. I will not argue that the 45/70 is not also excellent, and works better once you start stretching the yardage out, you can use lighter, faster bullets. No deer was ever killed deader by 3000 foot pounds than by 1000, just damaged more.
I have both, and I tend to take the 500 out more, it is lighter and shorter, and I think easier and cheaper to reload a bit. I can use either LR or magnum pistol primers, and I have loaded some cases 12-15 times and you cant tell them from new coming out of the tumbler.
I hunt mostly in heavy timber where there is a lot of bowhunters around, and if you can kill them with a bow, range is not much of an issue, you say you are here in Missouri also. If you are north of the river, maybe go long, but here in the south, the 500 works just fine. Get whatever strikes your fancy or comes up first or best deal, you will soon love either one.

ashae70 · « **Reply #10 on:** May 13, 2012, 07:34:01 AM »

thanks for advice, I will be loading my own rounds either way. I guess it all depends on what load and bullet recipe i decide on. I know the 45/70 has the potential for a 500 yrd shot but i am just gonna get a handy so it will just be a brush gun anything more i will use my 7mm mag. I dont know what part of missouri you are in but here in and around franklin county or down around texas county where i some times go its no place for a high power rifle. good penetration and knock down power with a barnes expander pistol bullet knowing what kind of soup i will make in the chest cavity with minimal meat damage or just take the neck out. I guess it will be a matter of decision when i order the gun and see what the cost difference will be with powder and bullet and brass.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #11 on:** May 13, 2012, 08:04:53 AM »

As Brush gun.
I like the cowboy loads in my 45-70 that are mild but have a huge heavy bullet moving at slow speeds that just transfers energy to the animal.
I am not sure you are going to get more out of a larger bullet.
.499 Vs. .458
You may just want to spend the money you would on a new gun or barrel and the ammo you were going to spend on shooting the new gun into ammo for hte 45-70 and shoot the softer cowboy loads that are more than enough for deer.

bearbeater · « **Reply #12 on:** May 13, 2012, 08:41:10 AM »

Most people here already said it al, I would use 45-70 3 gr 4198 405 cast or 20 or 12 GA shotgun
BB

bikerbeans · « **Reply #13 on:** May 13, 2012, 10:16:19 AM »

Within your stated 100 yard limit, the 45-70 or 500 S&W would both be fine choices. For that matter a rifled 12 or 20 ga shotgun would also be just as good at up to 100 yards. The 45-70 would be my choice if shooting past 150 yards.

BB

twoshooter · « **Reply #14 on:** May 13, 2012, 02:11:42 PM »

Very familiar with both locations, I hunt in Crawford and Phelps Co, which take up the space between Franklin & Texas

, I also have worked in both of your counties, still do in Texas quite a bit. I bought the 500 as a gift for my now ex- son in law, as he lived in Indiana, but they split up before the delivery date and so I had it. Was going to sell it, but that fell through, so I just went ahead and bought Lee dies and a mold, and 100 brass. The ammo is insanely expensive for factory, and I had to use 50/70 load data to start with. Once I fired an inch group @ 50 yards with iron sights and 12 gr of unique, that just went "whoompp" and was like my 28 ga, there was no way I was going to let it go. I love my BC 45/70, it is the only rifle I own that does not have a scope, but for thick stuff, I really like the 500. I would not trade one for the other if I could only have one, whichever I had. Happy quandary........

woodchukhntr · « **Reply #15 on:** May 13, 2012, 02:47:26 PM »

Quote from: ashae70 on May 12, 2012, 04:35:34 PM

I have had a 45/70 in the past and loved it but the recoil makes my 12 ga. seem light. I plan to hunt in some thick missouri tree lines and want the kenetic energy and ballistic effects to be dead on at atleast 100 yrd. I will load my own rounds and pretty much know what powders and bullets to use but i am just wanting a good comparison as to which is actually better and wont kill the shoulder.

Since you reload, recoil shouldn't be a problem since you can load it to whatever level you are comfortable with. I'd go with the .45-70 since components are readily available and should always be since it passed the test of time.

KIMBER45 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 13, 2012, 03:55:00 PM »

You don't need alot of powder nor speed with the 45/70. My hunting load is 1620 fps with a 405 gr Remington bullet. I hunt in an extremely thick area loaded with greenbriar and saplings. Have killed deer after shooting through brush and saplings, As long as the deer was only 2 to 3 yds behind the thicket. That's all both my friend and I use and we have no complaints. My avatar is a 405gr. Remington that passed through a deer and than hit the tree.

ironglow · « **Reply #17 on:** May 13, 2012, 04:01:55 PM »

I think the 45/70 is a good round, but brush bucking is in question. Some think it is a factor, some don't. I,ve never used a 45/70, but I have had a 1 oz, 12 guage foster slug deflected badly by a 1/4" twig at 30 yards.

Dave Pitcher · « **Reply #18 on:** May 14, 2012, 12:11:02 AM »

What KIMBER45 said above.

To each his own but to me, it's not even a matter up for consideration. The 45/70 is a great old cartridge and is at home in the woods as well in the open at longer ranges.

I, for one, never said it has "mild recoil." (Someone above sads that those who like the 45/70 were "masochists.) Granted, it's not a plinking round and yes, it has a lot of recoil. But, I've really never noticed recoil when I'm shooting at a deer.

I've been using a Handi 45/70 for my deer hunting for years, even before NYS permitted rifle hunting in our area. I bought a Handi 20 ga. slug gun quite a few years ago, sent it out for a 45/70 accessory barrel and this became my main deer hunting rifle. Put some 45/70 cartridges in my pocket, grab a knife and off I went and it always served me well.

My $.02

twoshooter · « **Reply #19 on:** May 14, 2012, 04:15:33 AM »

Hey Dave, sorry for the confusion, never said 45/70 lovers were "masochists", just people who insist on compressing powder into them and then putting heavy bullets on top. I can load my Ruger #3 up to 458 Win levels, and it will rock your world and shoot pretty flat. Just like a BC with stock features, which is why both my #3 and BC barrel is on a stock with a good recoil pad

I just have had very good experience with the 500, and do not want people to just discount it without trying it. In a handgun it is a monster, and brass is not found all over, but in a handi it is a great brush gun. The 357 max was a pistol cartridge also, did not work out in a handgun, but is great in a handi. It is now very rare and brass hard to get. I would hate for that to happen to the 500. It is similar to a 20 ga slug gun in performance regarding power and killing ability, but very easy to cast for and reload, the 20 ga is not. I am not talking down the 45/70, just up the 500.

YRUpunting? · « **Reply #20 on:** May 14, 2012, 05:26:32 AM »

A better title for this thread would be "Which sledgehammer is better for swatting flies?"

gcrank1 · « **Reply #21 on:** May 14, 2012, 06:33:57 AM »

I like my 45-70s, but I think if I didnt have one (and all the stuff to reload one), and recognized the 500s limitations, that getting one and set up for it would be a blast. I know I have the option of longer shots, but find that the older I get the shorter I am shooting. Hey, for that matter the old 50-70 was used to good effect at some longer ranges too.
Beware the man with one gun and dance with who ya brung.......

Swampman · « **Reply #22 on:** May 14, 2012, 07:13:02 AM »

The .45-70 is cheaper to shoot and easier to find stuff for. The .500 S&W just doesn't seem as accurate. I do love the .50-70.

Dave Pitcher · « **Reply #23 on:** May 14, 2012, 07:20:24 AM »

two shooter-

Got ya!AandIi understand your clarification. Thanks.

I guess my bottom line would be that a person should use what they like and what they are comfortable with. I think there is a little bit of a psychological component involved in rifles and cartridges and the person selecting and using them. Like me-no one can convince me that there is a better varmint cartridge out there than the 22/250 even though I know for a fact that a .223 and others are just about as good. As I said-it's probably psychological. I love my 45/70 Handi. It just simplifies things for me and I enjoy carrying it whether I get a shot that day or not.

So--whatever one likes. Enjoy and be safe.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #24 on:** May 14, 2012, 07:36:54 AM »

the 45-70 is just a fad

5 years from now you will be lucky to find brass let alone loaded ammo

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #25 on:** May 14, 2012, 07:53:47 AM »

Comparing a 45/70 to any other gun or cartridge on this forum is like walking into a catholic church and asking the parish father if being Catholic is better or is being Methodist better? Both are Christian, but the father is going to have a little bias toward his way of thinking.

BTW of the two you asked about, I would opt for the 45/70

Good Shooting and Good Luck

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #26 on:** May 14, 2012, 09:45:28 AM »

Quote from: KIMBER45 on May 13, 2012, 03:55:00 PM

You don't need alot of powder nor speed with the 45/70. My hunting load is 1620 fps with a 405 gr Remington bullet. I hunt in an extremely thick area loaded with greenbriar and saplings. Have killed deer after shooting through brush and saplings, As long as the deer was only 2 to 3 yds behind the thicket. That's all both my friend and I use and we have no complaints. My avatar is a 405gr. Remington that passed through a deer and than hit the tree.

1620 with a 405. WOW.
the cowboy loads are only about 1350 to 1380 FPS
No wonder you go through deer and almost fell trees.

Buckwheat Jack · « **Reply #27 on:** May 14, 2012, 02:08:16 PM »

I love my 45-70 out to 200 yds using a 450grain Lee cast bullet over 24 grains of 4198 (28 grains works OK, too). I don't know the velocity, but the recoil is OK and I get good enough field accuracy using open sights.
For just fun plinking, I use the same bullet and 9 to 10 grains of Unique.

tacklebury · « **Reply #28 on:** May 14, 2012, 03:37:29 PM »

I love the .45-70, but for closer in hunting, my .45 Colt reigns supreme for me. I typically carry the .45-70 if going into an area that may require 125 yard plus shots, but my .45 colt is my go to gun for shorter range stuff. I rarely shoot past 70 yards on actual game anyway. I use the 300 gr. XTP Magnums and push them with Reloader 7 to around 1800 fps, so I'd think that the .500 S&W with a similar load would be a great sub 125 yard gun, but I haven't had my hands on one to test that.

demented · « **Reply #29 on:** May 14, 2012, 03:53:43 PM »

Anyone tried the FTX bullet with the 45-70? IMO, its the best thing since sliced bread. Flattest shooting bullet I've tried, good accuracy and it knocks deer off their feet as well as anything I've fired at them.