Author Topic: 458 Winchester?  (Read 5829 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline hex

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 42
  • Gender: Male
458 Winchester?
« on: May 10, 2012, 05:53:01 AM »
I was strolling through reloading books on MidwayUSA and came across a Loadbook for "375 and 458 Winchester". Now I know what the 375 Winchester is, but I have never need a 458 Winchester "non magnum" round. I've looked over the web and can't find any reference to a 458 Winchester non-magnum. Does anyone have any info on this apparent mythical beast?


http://www.midwayusa.com/product/504354/loadbooks-usa-375-and-458-winchester-reloading-manual
“Life is and will ever remain an equation incapable of solution, but it contains certain known factors.” - Nikola Tesla

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2012, 06:23:19 AM »
I have heard of some loading it down to 45-70 power for plinking or deer.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2012, 06:24:54 AM »
I have shot a 458 WM its an experince .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline KIMBER45

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1648
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2012, 06:46:32 AM »
I shot one in my late teens. About knocked me off my feet. I was a whopping 158 lbs. at that time.
"In the final analysis, it is between you and God.  It was never between you and them anyway."__Mother Theresa
-----------------
Not everyone will understand your journey. That"s fine. It's not their journey to make sense of. It's yours.
--------------------------------
Hawkeye: My father warned me about you...
Chingachgook, he warned me about people like you. He said "Do not try to understand them".
 "do not try to make them understand you. That is because they are a breed apart and make no sense".
-------

-------

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2012, 06:54:46 AM »
I shot some 350 gr bullets which were a handful then we tried a 500 gr bullet just one was enough to complete my education on the 458 that day.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline KIMBER45

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1648
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2012, 07:18:27 AM »
I shot some 350 gr bullets which were a handful then we tried a 500 gr bullet just one was enough to complete my education on the 458 that day.
My dad was smart enough that he made sure I was standing and not shooting from a rest in a sitting position.
"In the final analysis, it is between you and God.  It was never between you and them anyway."__Mother Theresa
-----------------
Not everyone will understand your journey. That"s fine. It's not their journey to make sense of. It's yours.
--------------------------------
Hawkeye: My father warned me about you...
Chingachgook, he warned me about people like you. He said "Do not try to understand them".
 "do not try to make them understand you. That is because they are a breed apart and make no sense".
-------

-------

Offline gendoc

  • SWAMP GROCERIES RULE !!!
  • Trade Count: (329)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3957
  • TRUTH AND HUMOR, thatsa what i'm talk'n bout
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2012, 12:14:49 PM »
once upona time, i hada 458wm ina fallen block ruger... very nice piece
 and very glad it went to someone else :o
sea-ya.....
in tha meen time, i'm wait'n for tha  7th trumpet ta sound !!!

gotta big green tractor ana diesel truck, my idea of heaven's chasin whitetail bucks and asa country boy, you know i can survive............

hey boy, hit this mason jar one time...
burn ya lil'bit did'nt it. ya ever been snipe hunt'n ?  come on...

I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.

Offline Jason F

  • Trade Count: (261)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2105
  • Gender: Male
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2012, 12:18:47 PM »
I have never shot one, but my 45-120 with 77 grains of i3031 with 300 grain hollow point is starting to get some punch to it
handi rifles- 22 mag      22 hornet    223      7mm-08      308 chip shot     30-30 x2     30-06 shorty      358 cheez whiz     357 max     35 remington     375-08    410 rifled slug     454 casull     460 s&w     45 smokeless muzzleloader x2     45-70    50 huntsman    50-70 government shikari     20 ga.ush     12 ga.ush    12 ga.3 1/2     10 ga.imp.cyl. slug gun

Offline vk4ale

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 41
  • Gender: Male
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2012, 06:08:46 PM »
Hi Hex,I have a 458 Zastava with scope and bi pod 11lb weight very pleasant to shoot off the bench, and and if you down load and use 405rem bullets,. very accurate. With that load magic on red deer,pigs, goats and more then comfortable to shoot.Cheers all vk4ale.ps 405 rem, cci mag prima, 68gn ar2206h, 2000fps.

Offline bikerbeans

  • Trade Count: (168)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4070
  • Gender: Male
  • BANDIT - North American Snake Hound
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2012, 12:38:49 AM »
Several of us big bore Handiholics have exceeded 458 WinMag performance with their 45-120 BCs at considerably less pressure, albeit just as much recoil due to increase in powder which adds to the recoil factor.  ;D

Tim

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

I like Tyler's Gold Standard 45-120 Load, 405 Rem SP, 85 grain I4320 @ 2,550 FPS. ;D 
 
BB
RIP Tom: Tom Nolan, ( bikerbeans) passed away this afternoon (02-04-2021).

Why be difficult, when with a little extra effort you can be impossible?

Wife's Handis;  300 BLKOUT

MINE:  270W, 308x444, 44 Bodeen, 410 shorty rifled slug gun, 445 SuperMag Shikari, 45 ACP shorty,  45-70 Shikari, 45 Cal Smokeless MZ, 50cal 24" SS Sidekick, 50 cal 24" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Sidekick, 50-70 Govt Shikari, Tracker II 20 ga shorty, 20 ga VR Pardner, 20ga USH, 12ga VR NWTF, 12ga Tracker II shorty WITHOUT scope, 12ga USH, 10 ga  Pardner Smoothbore slug gun & 24ga Profino Custom rifled slug gun.

Offline Dinny

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (268)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5524
  • Gender: Male
  • "Medics Save"
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2012, 12:52:36 AM »
I don't know of any non-magnum .458 Winchester cartridges. I believe the manual is for the .458 Winchester Magnum. Many times the "Magnum" is dropped from cartridge names especially if there is little chance of mistaking it for something else.  ;)

Thanks, Dinny at KAF
Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace"
Thomas Paine

Offline AtlLaw

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (58)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6462
  • Gender: Male
  • A good woman, nice bike and fine guns!
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2012, 04:06:15 AM »
I like Tyler's Gold Standard 45-120 Load, 405 Rem SP, 85 grain I4320 @ 2,550 FPS. ;D   

 ;D ;D ;D   I was thinking that when I read this Tom!!!   ;D ;D ;D   But correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't that Tyler's 'possum round?   ???   As I remember it was a little to "explosive" on deer for my taste...  :-\
 
I sure wish I had saved those pictures...  :(   or knew how to search 'em up...  :-\
 
Timmy me boy?   ;D
 
I think they just left off the Mag.  The only other 458 round I can think off off hand was the 458 American.
Richard
Former Captain of Horse, keeper of the peace and interpreter of statute.  Currently a Gentleman of leisure.
Nemo me impune lacessit

                      
Support your local US Military Vets Motorcycle Club

Offline hex

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 42
  • Gender: Male
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2012, 04:14:17 AM »
I don't know of any non-magnum .458 Winchester cartridges. I believe the manual is for the .458 Winchester Magnum. Many times the "Magnum" is dropped from cartridge names especially if there is little chance of mistaking it for something else.  ;)

Thanks, Dinny at KAF


Yeah, I'm not sure but I find it interesting its in the same book as the 375 Winchester. I went ahead an ordered the book and will let everyone know what I find.
“Life is and will ever remain an equation incapable of solution, but it contains certain known factors.” - Nikola Tesla

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2012, 01:51:30 AM »
I shot some 350 gr bullets which were a handful then we tried a 500 gr bullet just one was enough to complete my education on the 458 that day.
My dad was smart enough that he made sure I was standing and not shooting from a rest in a sitting position.
The 350's were from a sitting position with a lead sled and over 50 lbs of lead on it. The last three shots were standing 2-350 and 1-500. To be honest the little over 6 lb O/U I had with 3.5 chambers loaded with 2 oz 3.5 shells kicked harder.
 
 
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Smokin Joe

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1230
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2012, 05:11:28 AM »
Quote
But correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't that Tyler's 'possum round?   ???   As I remember it was a little to "explosive" on deer for my taste...

Last I heard, he was shooting at a buck.......the slug crossed a shadow on the way and vaporized!
Deo duce, ferro comitante
With God as my leader and my sword as my companion

Offline corbanzo

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2405
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2012, 07:58:13 AM »
Sounds like somebody made the title before you were required to call everything that used over 60 grains of powder a "magnum"   ::)





"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline moorepower

  • Trade Count: (14)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 518
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2012, 08:27:28 AM »
I don't know of any belted rounds that are not magnums. It is a true magnum, and very popular in Africa.

Offline quickdtoo

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (149)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43304
  • Gender: Male
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2012, 08:49:03 AM »
I don't know of any belted rounds that are not magnums. It is a true magnum, and very popular in Africa.

450 Marlin is belted.  ;)

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2012, 09:02:11 AM »
the belt helped in double rifles but what does it do in a bolt gun ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline corbanzo

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2405
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2012, 09:08:26 AM »
It helps helps you need special dies to full length size.  And.... Uhm.... 

.50 bmg isn't belted. Must be a squirrel gun.
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline hex

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 42
  • Gender: Male
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2012, 09:38:34 AM »
Must be a squirrel gun.


Squirrel artillery.
“Life is and will ever remain an equation incapable of solution, but it contains certain known factors.” - Nikola Tesla

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2012, 09:51:07 AM »
It helps helps you need special dies to full length size.  And.... Uhm.... 

.50 bmg isn't belted. Must be a squirrel gun.
BMG 50 ? how bout 20MM  ;D
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline corbanzo

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2405
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2012, 10:09:05 AM »
Not to start another belt vs non-belt discussion.... But the truth is the belt on a lot of cartridges is a left-over of old design, and since it's source was double rifles and headspace issues, and the design of the 375 hh in that era,  it would make sense that the children of the 375 HH, lots of them, would have a belt.

Gladly new cartridges have figured out that current designs don't need a belt, but calling something a magnum based on one part of their design isn't effective.

But what about when you design the .458 Lott?  Isn't that the magnum of the 458 win mag?  Magnum by definition is something that is larger than normal. And what is the 458 win mag larger than?  It's a blow out of the 375 that is also a "mag."

And since the 450 marlin is also based on the 375 hh magnum (being a cut down 458 win mag) is it a magnum because it's parent case is?  Or is it not since it is a smaller of a magnum?   And does it being smaller than the .458 win mag make .458 a magnum?

And if that's true does the 243 make the .30-06 a magnum? 

Did the invent of the 416 barret make the 50 bmg a magnum?

So newer cartridges are not throwing in magnum. Chey-tac, lazzeroni, the new proprietary cartridges figured out "magnum" is a played out marketing term.

So if by "true magnum" you are referring to a term over coined based on companies trying to market their cartridges as African type and capable cartridges, then the children of those, including their .2xx caliber kids kept that designation, than those "true magnums" really aren't based on their power or their capacity or their design, but the era of their originating design.

I and then smith and Wesson had to use it to sell handguns.... Casull didn't need to steal any marketing terms. ;)

So I guess the 450 marlin is a magnum!  ;)
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2012, 10:14:36 AM »
After we decide on a definition we can agree on for magnum can we hash out one for tatical ?  ;D
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline corbanzo

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2405
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2012, 10:27:24 AM »
Yeah yeah yeah. I shouldn't of started.... Again. My bad. And no we don't!! 

So if I put a reddot on my 458 Lott, does that mean I have a .458 Lott tactical magnum???
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline SHOOTALL

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23836
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2012, 10:30:31 AM »
paint it camo and call it a super tatical mag stalker !
 
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline corbanzo

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2405
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2012, 10:38:01 AM »
I'm done. Sorry hex. ;)
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline moorepower

  • Trade Count: (14)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 518
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2012, 01:20:33 PM »
Lots of double rifles still used. Over 5k lb. ft. of energy seems like a "magnum" to me. I guess they could have called it .458 Thunberboomer/shouldersmasher, but it would have been hard to print on the brass. I almost bought one on an auction, that was on a Mauser action with a +++walnut stock, but thankfully someone else started bidding.

Offline hex

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 42
  • Gender: Male
Re: 458 Winchester?
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2012, 08:35:25 AM »

So if I put a reddot on my 458 Lott, does that mean I have a .458 Lott tactical magnum???


Only if you're in sales... got to go for the "wow" factor.
“Life is and will ever remain an equation incapable of solution, but it contains certain known factors.” - Nikola Tesla

Offline corbanzo

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2405
458 Winchester?
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2012, 08:47:45 AM »
Love it don't want anybody buying it.

I own a cz550 in 458 boreathon won't kill squat deluxe  non-magnum.
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."