Why the 41 cal never caught on

[stimpylu32]

Just don't understand this one , either in rifle or handguns , it just never seemed to jump out there and say pick me , any ideas why ?
 
There were a couple like the the 405 Win and the 411 JDJ , but thats about it , you would think that with bullets that range from 170 to 400 grain it would fit into many different types of hunting & shooting .
 
stimpy

[mauser98us]

Couple of things. I'm talking 41 mag here. Too much for law enforcement to handle,which it was designed for. Dirty Harry movies,which needless to say,sent 44 mags sales booming. Lastly ,If you ever shot one,it pretty much recoils like a 44 mag. Probably bullet selection for handloaders aswell.

[kynardsj]

My opinion was that it was a bridge between the 357 mag and the 44 mag. Like the 16 ga was a bridge between the 20 and the 12. Good guns and calibers and to a select few the best, but just never caught on with a great number of folks.

[Bigeasy]

I think with the advent of high velocity smokeless powder cartridges, peoples perception of what constituted a big bore changed.  Suddenly, .277, .284, and .308 rifles were considered mainstream high power rounds, with the .338 and .358 cartridges becoming the new medium bores, suitable for almost any big game.  Because of tradition as much as anything, I think most considered .458 or bigger as the true stopper rounds for game like elephant and rhino, with the 41's being neither fish or fowl - bigger then needed for large game, to small to be real "stoppers" on the largest dangerous game.  Thats just my guess though, but I'm sticking to it....
 
Personally, I would feel well armed against any game on earth with a 416 Rigby or Remington.
 
Larry

[Empty Quiver]

Civilian chambering plain and simple. Too expensive to catch on to the masses of shooters.


Think about every popular cartridge, they are somehow related to a military round and a few are widely used by LE.


- 30-06 and all of its relatives
- .308 and all its relatives


That covers so many rifle rounds it is hardly amusing. You have cheap surplus rifles, cheap brass, and abundant loaded rounds coming to market as surplus. Don't forget an ammunition factory that is already set up to provide cheap fodder. How else could you explain the popularity of the .30 carbine?


.45, 9mm, 38 special, .357 Mag, .40S&W ( FBI pretty much demanded these last two, or certainly beat the drum for them ), .45 LC


I think Bigeasy hit upon a very important point as well. Smokeless powder and good jacketed bullets supplanted a big hole, as certain medicine to a killing problem. A person tends to forget about the buildup in small bore black powder guns, and jacketed bullets allowed for very fast MV's that brought about hydrostatic shock as a killing force.

[us920669]

I'm also surprised there isn't more interest in the lower 40s.  My African PH called 416 Rigby "brilliant on buffalo".  Of course, it's such a huge case it can't go in a normal rifle, ditto the Rem Mag.  There is 416 Taylor, but in that kind of rifle, why neck down from 458 and give up 100 gr of bullet weight?  I sometimes think 40 S&W is ideal for a carry handgun, but the ugly truth is I don't own one right now.  If I want to throw more lead than 357, next stop is 429.  It's not easy to start something new.

[keith44]

In my opinion, the .41 calibers cover such a wide range of power levels, when hand loaded, and have sufficient sectional density that they should dominate the markets.  The .416 Rigby being more than needed for most North American game and recoils more than the average whitetail hunter is willing to learn to control. 


The .41 Magnum could have been a widely used chambering if the FBI had wanted it.  Look at the history and development of the .40 S&W.  It is a down loaded shortened case version of the 10mm.  The FBI had been looking for a new cartridge to standardize their equipment to.  Testing proved the 10 to be too much of a good thing (IMO).  It simply over penetrated every test media they tried, and the guns were not quite what they wanted either.  So S&W (and others) submitted the smaller round that offered less penetration, but more energy than the 9 mm.   If the same had been done with the .41 Magnum (.41 Special for instance) marketing a revolver capable of firing both high powered hunting rounds, as well as specially designed defensive ammo would likely have made at least one of the .41 calibers more popular.

[Lloyd Smale]

I know John Linebaugh and my buddy Al whos good friends with him will tell you that the 416 rem is probably the best all around big bore rifle out there.

[RevJim]

 I had a .416 Taylor, a .416 Remington and a .404 Jeffry for a short period of time. I was supposed to get the chance on cull buffalo in South Africa, back in the '90s. The .416T was too light/too short/waaay too loud. Sold it. I then tried a .416 Remington in a Mod 700; too brutal for me! A couple years later, had a Mauser 98 modified to the .404 J. I liked it alot, 400gr bullet at 2200 was awesome, but before I could use it, I had a non shooting related tear in my left retina. Well, that put the quietis on my big bore shooting for a couple years. The buffalo hunt fell apart, and I settled on my .35 Whelen AI for a big gun, which does quite well, and is legal even on buff in SA.
 I was going to use the .416T on elk even, which is why I had it made up light/short, but God almighty! too much sugar for a dime! The .416 Remington was OK for weight but kicked the snot out of me for some reason. Out of nostalgia, I had that .404 made up, and in that particualr rifle it recoiled like a .375 H&H, shot flat, hit hard. But alas, no more for me. For big bears, I think a .411 to .416 something makes more sense than a .458 win, and no doubt they would thump an elk like crazy. I would like to play with a .405 Win in a Ruger #1 someday, but I don't know if I could lay down my .35 whelen AI when it actually got time to go hunting,ha.

[Ranch13]

Prior to the depression and world war 2 the "40's" like the 40-72,40-65,40-82, and the 405 were quite popular as was the 38-40. After that time period the world was caught up in the 30 caliber, namely the 30-06, most everything else didn't fair to well, and those old 40's were just obsolete and not much good.....
Then just like now the outdoor press controlled much of what people thought/think about what's good and what's not.
 Those of us that shoot the various 40 somethings know how good they work...

[mcwoodduck]

My opinion was that it was a bridge between the 357 mag and the 44 mag. Like the 16 ga was a bridge between the 20 and the 12. Good guns and calibers and to a select few the best, but just never caught on with a great number of folks.

If you look at the ballistics.
It is much closer to 357 than 44 mag.
I think if you are going to spend that much on a revolver the 357 and 44 both come with a special version for practice and plinking.  Maybe if Law enforvement built a Special version first and then made a mag or came out with both at the same time the 41 would have made a better showing.
 

[Ranch13]

There's not a heck of alot of difference in felt recoil between the 41 and 44 mags when loaded with like bullet weights at roughly the same velocity, and I think that was the biggest downfall to the 41 magnums success.
Strange how things work, the 10mm/40 craze for le and selfdefense stuff became all the rage, yet the grand old 38-40 which offered the exact same bullet diameter and weight at the same velocity area is a no good obscolete oldtimer.

[woods]

     As I stole and added my personal touch to it. " They can have my 41 mag when they pry my cold dead fingers off it" Love 41's especialy the smith's with 240 gr cast bullets.  My favorite 657 with 7 1\2 " barrel is about to sport a set of stag antler grips that I have on order. As far as rifles I have been watching for a 416 ruger in an alaskan model to show up on the shelf at a local gun store, may just have to justify the purchase with the wife, but I think I can sway her. Never know when one of those mangey looking zombies I see on SiFi may come visiting my humble bunker.  Lol.
     woods

[Brithunter]

Whatever happened to the .41AE?


Before they banned pistols here a Tanfoglio Ultra .41AE was my comp pistol.

[mcwoodduck]

Whatever happened to the .41AE?


Before they banned pistols here a Tanfoglio Ultra .41AE was my comp pistol.

40 S&W won out. 

[charles p]

I guess there wasn't much of an application in the US.  Most people shoot deer, black bear, moose, and elk with smaller diameter bullets.  If we had 600 lb African plains animals or dangerous bison herds, the 41 might have taken off.  We have been slow to accept 6.5mm and 8mm for some reason.  Maybe the 6.5 was trumped by the 270 and the 30-06 did everything the 8mm Mauser did, thus we never really needed the 6.5, 8mm, and .41s.  We are just slow learners I suppose.  I'm sure the firearms industry would love nothing better than to have a very successful offering in those diameters so the gun writers could convince us we had to have them in our arsenals.

[mannyrock]

 
   As far as handguns, I was never aware that we needed a "bridge" between thee .357 mag and the .44 mag.   For self defense, the .357 is far more than enough, with a 98% one-shot kill record and more recoil than the average person can master.  For hunting, the .44 mag is about all anyone could ever ask for in a handgun.
 
   As for rifles, please.   Give me a break.  Outside of Africa, is there really anything that a .358 Winchester Magnum won't kill stone dead?  If there is, just grab a .458 Winchester.
 
   We already have about 30 more different rifle cartridges than we could ever need.  A new .41 caliber would just make the number of needless cartridges 31.
 
Best, Mannyrock
 
 
 
 

[Don Fischer]

My opinion was that it was a bridge between the 357 mag and the 44 mag. Like the 16 ga was a bridge between the 20 and the 12. Good guns and calibers and to a select few the best, but just never caught on with a great number of folks.

If you look at the ballistics.
It is much closer to 357 than 44 mag.
I think if you are going to spend that much on a revolver the 357 and 44 both come with a special version for practice and plinking.  Maybe if Law enforvement built a Special version first and then made a mag or came out with both at the same time the 41 would have made a better showing.

In the 357 mag, you can shoot 38 spec and the 44 mag I understand will handle 44 spec. Dirty Harry in one of his movies said that his gun was a 44 mag but he shot 44 spec in it.

[dakotashooter2]

The 41 and 10mm really suffered the same fate... they were too much for law enforcement to handle. The 40 was the compromise for the 10 mm but since law enforcement never really requested the 41 to start with, no efforts were really made to downsize it.. Frame size might have been an issue too. The 41 wasn't quite suited to a small frame and got lost in the large frame.We know now that a 41 special  can work well in a small frame 5 shot but it's too little to late.
I think the 40 caliber rifles succumed to bolt and semi auto actions. Outside of large bear and maybe large moose they really couldn't do anthing the popular 30 calibers could not do with  the bonus of better balistics. Hunters have gotten on the speed craze and want their guns to be able to shoot table top flat.  That is just not going to happen with a 40 cal rifle cartridge.
 

[shinjin]

I am a 41 Mag nut. Have killed a slew of whitetail with 41 mag handguns over the three decades I've hunted West Texas. The ONLY reason I don't own a Marlin in 41 Mag is the price (I am cheap).  I like the caliber so much I would jump on a 41 special revolver in a Medium frame if I could afford to have one rechambered (see preceding self-description).
 
When Colt failed to produce a .41 Special from the .41 Long Colt it BLEW IT. It might have beaten out the .38 S&W Special with its reputation as a not particularlly accurate but effective manstopper. A proven manstopper (ask J W Hardin) VS a failed .38 Long colt manstopper (see Spanish American War reports Philippine Insurrection, etc.). Yep, Colt BLEW IT and lost to Smith & Wesson the chance to dominate revoler and ammunition sales.
 
I would love to have a ruger new model BH or Vac 357 rechambered to .41 Special for the PPP as Tappin calls them. But then I'd love to have a Republican in the White House, too.

[timothy]

Because when you move up from whitetail to bears, elk and moose its 44mag time.

[bkraft]

At one time I had a "CRAZY" idea influenced I'm sure by the bowls of lead based paint chips that I was fed as a child while being exposed to more second hand smoke than a ham, to convert a .410 side x side shotgun into a .41 double rifle. Just sayin...

[shinjin]

Timothy, Timothy Timothy...?
I am certain if a Moose was about to stomp me into a muddle puddle I could put myself out of my misery with my 41 just as easily as with a 44. C'mon, its all about bullet placement.

[DDZ]

I think the .41 is actually closer to the .44 than the .357. If you look at case capacity the .357 is 25.6 gr. the .41 is 35 gr. and the .44 is 39.5grs. More case= more powder, and there is only 4.5 grs. difference between the .41 and .44 Its kind of the same with the '06 and the .308 more case capacity can push bigger bullets faster.  Or the 38 spec. and the 357 Can't make a 38 into a 357 because the case isn't big enough.
Looking at bullet dia. the .41 is also closer to the .44 than the .357.  .357 .410 and .429

I just wonder if the Dirty Harry movie would have used the .41 instead of the .44, would the .41 have been more popular. It didn't help the .41 that the .44 was first and it had an Elmer Kieth, and a bunch of years with a previous (special) cartridge behind it.  Also around the time the .41 was adopted, the semi-auto craze was starting. If you reload, the .41 mag is a great handgun cartridge, but if you don't its tough finding factory ammo, in anything besides a 210 gr. load.
 
The .41 isn't the .44 but its close in bullet weights to 240 grs. Shooting the heavier weights in the .44 is where the .44 surpasses the .41. I have both, and I normally shoot the .41 more often than my .44 Both guns are about the same weight, and there is less felt recoil in the .41. With a redhawk in .41mag you can seat heavier bullets, out further, which leaves more room for 110 or 296, which makes it pretty close in performance to the .44 up to the 265 gr weights. Doesn't really matter though, Variety is the spice of life.       

[Ranch13]

Elmer Keith had a big hand in the developement of the 41. His account of using the first gun out of the S&W factory and the first factory ammo from Remington, on a couple of Caribou is some interesting reading.
 Skeeter Skelton and others had a part of the developement of the cartridge and they all swore by it.

[Empty Quiver]

 I'll tell you why it has not caught on.
 
 $23.90 for 20 rounds of ammo  , thats why! For that kind of money and a bit of shopping I can shoot my 300Win Mag. Four ammo choices at Cabelas today none was under $1 a pop, the worst was very nearly $1.50 a pop for Barnes ammo. I want a kiss.
 
I left with a pound of powder, 200 Hornady XTP bullets, a thousand large pistol primers, 100 pcs.of brass, a Dr. Pepper, and a set of RCBS carbide dies for $201.  No doubt one of you could have bought all that for $38.78 and free shipping to boot. My point is this, for less than the cost of 200 rounds I get a set of free dies, add a bit of labor and some scrounged wheel weights and I have very nearly 1000 rounds for a few $'s more (some assembly required).
 
I was proud of what the reloader saved me on the .325WSM, ha, chump change compared to this prima donna round.
 
Well now down to the dungeon to assemble my jewels. I had planned to reload all along. I assure you this thing will not see a factory round.

[keith44]

Sorry EQ, .41 Mag was introduced in 1964.  Todays prices are not a consideration of why the caliber never caught on.  It was once a police caliber (in very limited use) but was generally considered too much for that use (guns too heavy, and too much penetration). 


According to this article: [size=78%]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.41_Remington_Magnum[/size]


Elmer Keith had planned for a 900 fps 200 gr SWC as a police round.  That would have likely been the mythical .41 Special that would likely have brought it more popularity.
Oh well it still has several of us who know what it is, and how to use it.

[Empty Quiver]

Sorry EQ, .41 Mag was introduced in 1964.  Todays prices are not a consideration of why the caliber never caught on.  It was once a police caliber (in very limited use) but was generally considered too much for that use (guns too heavy, and too much penetration). 


According to this article: [size=78%]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.41_Remington_Magnum[/size]


Elmer Keith had planned for a 900 fps 200 gr SWC as a police round.  That would have likely been the mythical .41 Special that would likely have brought it more popularity.
Oh well it still has several of us who know what it is, and how to use it.

Was it outrageously priced back in the 20th century? About like .45GAP or .357 SIG, or 5.7 FNH rounds are today?
 
Back to my original opinion of not a military round, no cheap milsurp, no Gov't bought and paid for tooling at Lake City.
 
When the SHTF, I will only chuckle as the hordes discover the ammo stash is full of .41Mag, .325WSM, .40 S&W, and .300 WM. I feel they are all over achievers, tuned up sporty versions of what came before them.

[keith44]

Sorry EQ, .41 Mag was introduced in 1964.  Todays prices are not a consideration of why the caliber never caught on.  It was once a police caliber (in very limited use) but was generally considered too much for that use (guns too heavy, and too much penetration). 


According to this article: [size=78%]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.41_Remington_Magnum[/size]


Elmer Keith had planned for a 900 fps 200 gr SWC as a police round.  That would have likely been the mythical .41 Special that would likely have brought it more popularity.
Oh well it still has several of us who know what it is, and how to use it.

Was it outrageously priced back in the 20th century? About like .45GAP or .357 SIG, or 5.7 FNH rounds are today?
 
Back to my original opinion of not a military round, no cheap milsurp, no Gov't bought and paid for tooling at Lake City.
 
When the SHTF, I will only chuckle as the hordes discover the ammo stash is full of .41Mag, .325WSM, .40 S&W, and .300 WM. I feel they are all over achievers, tuned up sporty versions of what came before them.

I don't recall exact prices, but no it was in line with .357, and .44 Mag.  I've never bought factory ammo for it, nor most other centerfire handgun calibers so I really can't relate.  The .41 has a cult following that keep it around, but we are few.  Prima donna round?? Hardly, just a middle of the road working magnum.

[shinjin]

With the right load a 41 Mag gives me the hit of a .44 with the recoil of a 357.
 
As for it being a police laod, yes, there was a police load but most folk bough the hunting load and that's where it got its reputation as too much for most folks. the police load was closer to a 41 special and I believe that had Colt developed a 41 Special like S&W did the 38 Special they would have done quite well chambering it in their 357 frames. S&W would have jumped on the wagon and then we'd have had reasonably priced handguns in a 41 cal that out hit the 38 and was more accurate than the 44 Special.

Well its past and all we are left with is our dreams of faded glories and that hot chick at the drive thru that flirted with us 30 years ago.