Author Topic: 35 whelen update again (Read 1635 times)

bucco921 · « **on:** May 05, 2012, 09:50:49 AM »

Ok, since my last thread on the whelen it came back from brian who basically replaced all the internals and reamed the firing pin pocket. took the gun out and had a couple bullets that took double strikes. some factory, some reloads with rem 91/2 primers. Emailed brian and he said send it back, I did and it came back the other day and invoice said hammer spring was replaced. So I took it out today and had 3 out of 20 took double strikes, these were brass that were once fired in my chamber full length resized and rem 9 1/2 primers. Shot 10 factory loads- 5 remington and 5 federal nickle plated, all the factory loads fired but the primers were pushed halfway out of the pocket. Does all this spell headspace issue? Ive fired well over 1000 handloads thru my 223 and no issues. probably 300-400 through 44/445 and no issues. Im ready to throw this gun in the river.....

gendoc · « **Reply #1 on:** May 05, 2012, 09:59:47 AM »

Quote from: bucco921 on May 05, 2012, 09:50:49 AM

Ok, since my last thread on the whelen it came back from brian who basically replaced all the internals and reamed the firing pin pocket. took the gun out and had a couple bullets that took double strikes. some factory, some reloads with rem 91/2 primers. Emailed brian and he said send it back, I did and it came back the other day and invoice said hammer spring was replaced. So I took it out today and had 3 out of 20 took double strikes, these were brass that were once fired in my chamber full length resized and rem 9 1/2 primers. Shot 10 factory loads- 5 remington and 5 federal nickle plated, all the factory loads fired but the primers were pushed halfway out of the pocket. Does all this spell headspace issue? Ive fired well over 1000 handloads thru my 223 and no issues. probably 300-400 through 44/445 and no issues. Im ready to throw this gun in the river.....

no !!! throw it my way !!!! i'll pay tha postage............

bucco921 · « **Reply #2 on:** May 05, 2012, 10:03:29 AM »

Lol^^^ I really am ready to give up on this one tho. On a bright note tried out some new handloads for the 223 ultra and had great results. 55 gn sierra soft point with 25.5 gns of varget gave me the tightest groups ive ever achieved in any gun!

gunther66 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 05, 2012, 11:59:40 AM »

Put a rim on it. You said you reload so have a rim cut done and form the cases from 7x65R.No more missfires. End of problem.
I've done this on 7mm/08, 308win, 30/06 and 35 whelen. It will still shoot rimless if you need to. G66

bucco921 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 05, 2012, 12:04:59 PM »

Truthfully at this point i want the gun replaced. It was bought brand new and has been back to factory 3 times. I dont have enough need for the 35 whelen to justify spending more money on tools and brass etc especially since i bought it brand new. I just always wanted a whelen. Thanks for the input tho.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #5 on:** May 05, 2012, 12:47:14 PM »

I am sorry to read you are STILL having problems!!

The protruding primer can be a couple things. But knowing the ignition problems, my thinking is, yes the chamber could be reamed a bit deeply.

Did you remove the barrel form the gun. Then remove the extractor and insert a FL resized case or factory loaded bullet. It should be flush or every so slightly below flush. Below flush as a correctly seated primer will sit in the primer pocket. IF its more than that then YES its excessive.

Is the primers sticking out upon firing primers only or live ammo. If just popping primers then it could be nothing. If live ammo, it still could be nothing if the loadings are very light. In these light loads the case cannot adhear to the chamber walls properly and it allows the primers to pop out a bit.

NOW in a perfect world, the primers should not "pop" reguardless of the above senerio.

You could also go to a gunsmith and have the action checked with "go/no go" gauges. If your gun closes on a "no go" it has excessive head space.

This is a new gun and H&R / Remington should make it right if in fact the chamber has been cut too deeply.

Again get Brian involved and let him know about what you have found and what you think.

CW

bucco921 · « **Reply #6 on:** May 05, 2012, 03:42:58 PM »

Yes I guess monday I will call again.Frustrated beyond belief with this thing. I wish I didnt have so much invested in reloading supplies for this gun or the barrel would be gone and something else fitted to that receiver. Actually been tossing around the idea of reaming to brown whelen or whelen improved.

YRUpunting? · « **Reply #7 on:** May 05, 2012, 04:47:07 PM »

I don't remember seeing this in your previous posts, so please ignore this if it's already been suggested or you've tried it. Does the Whelen barrel work on your other receivers? I've had a similar problem with trying to move my Max to a different receiver. I tested this at home. I loaded some primers and wrapped the end of the barrel in an old disposable bath towel and fired them in the garage. They don't make much noise, you won't need ear plugs (and I am a hearing protection freak). I live in town, the police didn't come knocking so it must not have disturbed the neighbors. If your are worried about the noise fire up a power tool and test the rifle. A compressor or table saw will easily drowned out the primer.

bucco921 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 05, 2012, 04:58:21 PM »

That is my only problem. The whelen only fits that receiver. I can swap my other barrels between my ultra and my bc classic but this one is the oddball.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 05, 2012, 05:12:39 PM »

Have you tried backing off your FL resize die a turn and resizing a fired case incrementally until it 'just fits' flush? Some situations call for an alteration of the 'normal' die setting instructions. In a perfect world, with perfectly reamed chambers, this wouldnt be necessary, but reality sometimes rears its ugly head. If this was an expensive custom barrel with 'excessive headspace' I would want it replaced, but this is a single shot Handi Rifle......adapt and adjust and see if you can overcome.

bucco921 · « **Reply #10 on:** May 05, 2012, 06:29:18 PM »

gcrank, I have thought of doing what you suggest but have never had to do this before and would need to read up on it a lil more. I have to disagree with the end of your post, expensive custom or cheap handi i bought it brand new and expect it to function properly. Factor in the fact that I have gone through 3 boxes of factory ammo 90$, 1lb of powder 25$, 2 boxes of 100 hornadys 60+$, 35$ rcbs dies, 30$ for all kinds of different primers and probably around 50$ in brass. add in those cost plus cost of gun and that puts me at around 600$- lot of money for a gun i still cant trust to fire reliably enough to take hunting. Ive gone through all these supplies and still have no clue if the gun shoots for a lick.

Dinny · « **Reply #11 on:** May 05, 2012, 09:03:27 PM »

G66,
Could you elaborate more on the 7x65R conversion for the 35 Whelen? I just looked over Steve's Page on cartridge case dimensions and see some differences in the two cases. I had a Whelen that had the same FTF issues and often wondered about a rimmed version.

Thanks, Dinny at KAF

cwlongshot · « **Reply #12 on:** May 06, 2012, 01:16:36 AM »

I started to write a post on how to "live" with a barrel with slightly deep chamber cut. BUT I remembered this is a NEW gun and SHOULD function properly! I agree, it should be fixed, NOT learned to be lived with..

Re-cutting it to AI may cure it. But it dependes on how, "too deeply" the chamber is cut.

Cutting a rim and changing nothing else, may stop the FTF, but will not change the wrongly, cut too deep chamber and in time WILL experience case head seperation. You see, the shoulder is still too far from the rim.

I agree and sympathize with your issues. I am confident Brian will make this correct. He just needs your information. He needs to know that this issue is NOT resolved, This one appears to have slipped thru the cracks and he simply needs to keep a hands on thru the factory to be sure correct things are done by the correct people.
In this case and if its what I think, it needs a new barrel.

CW

bikerbeans · « **Reply #13 on:** May 06, 2012, 01:22:23 AM »

bucco,

IF you have a too deep chamber then as gcrank1 say backing off on your FL size die might solve your problem. I would suggest you take a few of your fired brass w/o resizing them and see if they chamber and the gun locks up correctly. If they do then just go with a neck size so you don't push the shoulder down on the brass. Run your FL die down till it touches the shellholder then back off a couple of turns. Now cycle a piece of brass and remove it and look at the neck. You should be able to see how much of the just the neck was re sized. I would then keep slow turning the die down until I can see I have sized at least 75% of the length of the neck. You just want to stop before you get down to the shoulder. When you have as much neck sized as you want lock your die in place. I have a few Handi rimless and this technique has eliminated FTFs with my 270 & 22-250 & 35 Rem. Note that you need to check this neck sized brass after each firing to make sure the brass hasn't grown to the point you have to push the shoulder down a bit. The hotter you load the more likely you will need to push the shoulder down.

Good Luck.

BB

bucco921 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 06, 2012, 03:42:42 AM »

Thanks guys.

gendoc · « **Reply #15 on:** May 06, 2012, 12:51:18 PM »

Quote from: bikerbeans on May 06, 2012, 01:22:23 AM

bucco,

IF you have a too deep chamber then as gcrank1 say backing off on your FL size die might solve your problem. I would suggest you take a few of your fired brass w/o resizing them and see if they chamber and the gun locks up correctly. If they do then just go with a neck size so you don't push the shoulder down on the brass. Run your FL die down till it touches the shellholder then back off a couple of turns. Now cycle a piece of brass and remove it and look at the neck. You should be able to see how much of the just the neck was re sized. I would then keep slow turning the die down until I can see I have sized at least 75% of the length of the neck. You just want to stop before you get down to the shoulder. When you have as much neck sized as you want lock your die in place. I have a few Handi rimless and this technique has eliminated FTFs with my 270 & 22-250 & 35 Rem. Note that you need to check this neck sized brass after each firing to make sure the brass hasn't grown to the point you have to push the shoulder down a bit. The hotter you load the more likely you will need to push the shoulder down.

Good Luck.

BB

good on you BB... i'd try that bucco !!!!

i'd try that before i'd blame it on "other mentioned things"....

i (we) have hada problem whelen or 2 sent to us to figure out... WHATS UP !!!
from a local distributor. notta handi.. but, much more wealth. an hellno, notta tc........

j2 is gone now

so his secret is with him @ tha skirts of stan

hex · « **Reply #16 on:** May 09, 2012, 08:10:40 AM »

Have there been a lot of reports of the Whelens having issues from the factory?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #17 on:** May 09, 2012, 10:00:28 AM »

Yup, see the service notice in the FAQs, 35 Rem is included in the notice.

Tim

beaverslayer · « **Reply #18 on:** May 10, 2012, 12:06:17 PM »

I would use CCI primers to start with. Another thing I would do is get you some 30/06 brass and just neck size it. It will be tight going in, but once you fire form it to your chamber you are good to go. When you reload it a second time, don't push the shoulder back. If it's your chamber, then your FTF's will be gone. Those brass will last you quite a while and you won't be nearly as frustrated. If you stick with the factory brass, leave a little oil in the chamber so it will grow to the chamber when fired and then don't push the shoulder back again, till you have trouble closing the action. Only do this for the first firings. Not sure which powder you are using, but I like to use Rel 19 powder with this cartridge, cause you can get excellent velocity with lower pressures and not nearly the recoil. Also, don't use any bullets lighter than 200 gr. If you use 250's, it will also help with the FFL's since the extra weight will help keep the cartridge stationary upon firing. Hope this helps.

Jason F · « **Reply #19 on:** May 10, 2012, 12:55:20 PM »

Do you think 250's would stabilize in whelen handi twist

quickdtoo · « **Reply #20 on:** May 10, 2012, 01:14:56 PM »

They do in both of mine, this is from the RMEF with the 250gr Speer spitzer.

Tim

beaverslayer · « **Reply #21 on:** May 10, 2012, 02:47:50 PM »

Quote from: Jason F on May 10, 2012, 12:55:20 PM

Do you think 250's would stabilize in whelen handi twist

Yes

bucco921 · « **Reply #22 on:** May 10, 2012, 03:40:05 PM »

beaverslayer thanks for the input. Ive tried every major brand of primer out there( win, cci, federal, rem) and still no luck. Neck sizing is the only thing I havent tried. I am in the process of negotiating a trade with a member here. I just think im done with it. Too busy at work to keep dedicating so much time to it. It sucks because ive wanted a whelen since I was a child,but it will give me a "reason" to buy another handi:)

Jason F · « **Reply #23 on:** May 10, 2012, 03:44:49 PM »

abolt-fan · « **Reply #24 on:** May 11, 2012, 05:33:52 PM »

I have a barrel that was fitted to my gun in Gardner. I took it down to the range tunnel and checked it. Had five misfires. Fit was checked again and tested with the same results.

I took it to the tool maker to see what he could do. He had the lug welded up and recut and fitted the barrel himself. Sad to say we ended up with the same results. I told the guys to heck with it and took it home. I stuck the barrel in a box and forgot about it.

Fast forward four years. I've been thinking of sending in to Illion and having another 35 Whelen barrel fitted. Just for the heck of it I decided to try that old barrel on a different frame. It wouldn't close so I had to fit it. Before wasting ammo I primed 20 new cases and tested them. 20 out of 20 fired. Today I went to the range with two boxes of factory 250 gr. ammo. I didn't bother scoping, I just fired them to make sure the barrel stayed locked and to see if I got any misfires. 40 rounds of factory ammo and no misfires.

I don't know what's different, but whatever it is works. I had seriously thought many times of throwing that barrel away. Now it's functioning perfectly. Go figure.

Sourdough · « **Reply #25 on:** May 11, 2012, 09:35:43 PM »

I had FTFs when I first got the gun, back in 97 (I believe). Sent it to the factory and they fixed it. Have not had any issues since. I used up all my Remington ammo and reload now using CCI primers.

In fact taking it out for Bears next week. I really like the way those .35 cal 250gr Nosler Partitions put them down. I'm taking the .35 Handi, my son is taking a Ruger in .350 Rem Mag. We are shooting the same bullet, at the same velocity.

LONGTOM · « **Reply #26 on:** May 13, 2012, 04:55:56 AM »

The Handi rifle is not the only brand gun to have FTF problems with ammo using Rem primers.
I have 3 Whelens and all have had FTF with ammo loaded with Rem primers.
As a test I pulled bullets and dumped powder from factory Rem ammo and replaced the primers with Win and Fed primers, put the factory powder and bullets back together and what you know, the problem disappeared.
Nothing was changed on the guns, just the primers.
Not saying that everyone with 35s and Rem ammo have the exact same problem as my guns had but does make one think why it seems to be that so many different brands of firearms seem to have the FTF problems with REM ammo?
I have never had a FTF with reloaded 35 ammo but I don't use Rem primers.
Just my experience with the 35 Whelen.

LONGTOM

gcrank1 · « **Reply #27 on:** May 14, 2012, 04:24:28 AM »

Hey Remingtom!, thats just the kind of thing a guy dont need when a 'kill you' is bearing down...........

(you think they'd fix that.....)

Sourdough · « **Reply #28 on:** May 14, 2012, 05:21:02 AM »

That's why I use my handloads when hunting. Here is Alaska, even when hunting Moose and Caribou, you can quickly become the hunted.