Author Topic: which pump gun ? (Read 3080 times)

Scibaer · « **on:** April 22, 2012, 11:27:14 AM »

i have decided that i just dont need a 12 ga for small game and birds.
so, i'm going to replace my single shot , and want a pump gun, but which one ?
the remy 870, the mossy 500 or the pardner pump ? in 20 ga ..
fire off some opinions at me

and help steer me right

blaze · « **Reply #1 on:** April 22, 2012, 12:21:20 PM »

You can't beat a Mossberg 500C or Remington Express 870 for an all round inexpensive (not cheap) shotgun, especially in 20 ga. (3"). Used ones are available for less than $200 (wood stocks) on several of the online sites and at my local GS. You can shoot steel shot, buckshot, slugs (both in smoothbore and rifled bbls.) and any practical size bird shot. Shoot skeet, big game, waterfowl, birds and small game, etc.,etc. They make a very good home defense gun with an 18-20 inch barrel. They will shoot very, very light loads or heavy magnum 3" loads. My Moss. 500C has a variety of barrels for most uses (overall very inexpensive). And, one last note, they are reasonably light in carry weight, 6 to 6 3/4 lbs. As an older, retired country folk my day with the 12 ga are past. What is there not to like?

Scibaer · « **Reply #2 on:** April 22, 2012, 09:10:10 PM »

i guess that is what i am trying to sort out. here is the thing of it, i am reducing my inventory and only keeps specific guns, for the hunting i really do and only reloading for those guns. so from a room full of reloading eqiupment and maybe 40 guns to a few maybe 6 guns.
when it some to shotguns , i figure i have a chioce of mossburg or the mavrick clone, or the remy 870 or the nef pardner ( which i understand to be a 870 clone ).. keeping in mind i want something popular ( parts / availablity wise ) and something thats classic in tradition ( like having a ruger 10/22 or marlin model 60 in a .22 rifle )
i have a NEF pardner single shot in 20 ga now, but i want a pump gun. and other then the shotty i mentioned i cant think of another make that would fit the bill.

1sourdough · « **Reply #3 on:** April 23, 2012, 01:09:29 AM »

Those will work. A Browning BPS in 20 with a 26" barrel is handy too.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #4 on:** April 23, 2012, 02:06:38 AM »

I have owned a BPS upland specail, a Mossy 500, a Ithaca and a couple remmys all in 20 ga. I only still own the remmys. But the ithica was very nice and smooth operating too.

IMHO the Browning although the best looking was stuff and stuburn to cycle and the Mossy far too sloppy. After breaking it's safety for the second time it was sold. I traded it and the Browning in on a very nice short barreled 20 ga Citori. Which I sold cause I could not hit with bottom barrel. I bought a Special Field Wingmaster 20ga Remmy. SUPER gun!!! I have also bought its mate in 12 ga just because I liked it's feel so much!!

The Remington 870 is the quintisencial pump shotgun. It's the gun all other pumps are measure red against and rightfully so.

I would look for a good used say 15-20 year old Remington 870 and never worry again. Current specimens are not up to "par" with quality of older models. I also own a late 60's "Magnum 20" with a full fixed choke. More than a few kids have killed there first turkeys with this gun. It's a keeper to say the least.

The express guns are rougher still, I would again suggest used and say 10 yrs old or so. The advantage is two fold, better workman ship and lower cost. Availability should not be a big issue either as allot of these have been made.

As a second choice a nice older ithica 20ga would make a fine addition to anyone's collection.

Good luck,
CA

JBlk · « **Reply #5 on:** April 23, 2012, 02:48:56 AM »

The 870 will last your lifetime and give excellent service.I have owned and shot many pump guns but the Remington is by far my favorite.

Scibaer · « **Reply #6 on:** April 23, 2012, 09:01:34 AM »

ok so the consus is get a remmy 870. but get a older one ? how do i check the date of build ?
or what would i look for when buying used ?

cwlongshot · « **Reply #7 on:** April 23, 2012, 10:44:11 AM »

Thankfully buying used guns aint as hard as a used car! Its harder to hide the bad things on a firearm..

First is looks, if it looks like it led a hard life... it likely did! This may or may not be a bad thing depending on your intended useage. A beat up gun will have a lo price.
yet still provide years of trouble free service.

Check funtioning, ask for dummy/action proving rounds to test funtion.

Ask to dissassemble OR have counter guy break it down to look inside.

Check the barrel and esp the muzzle.

Does the safety work?

Has the gun been modified?

How is the wood?

Lastly, remember, its a used gun, ask what is the stores return policy. Will they repair firearm if it dosen't work? (EXPECT store credit not cash back) At the very least ask for a 10day return, Meaning you can take to the range and be sure it funtions properly and be able to return with in 10 days for repair/replacement.

As for how old it may be, you will see the difference, if you look at some brand new guns first. Seventies and earlier wingmaster's had impressed checkering and walnut wood. Keyed safeties started in the late 90's.

CW

KAYR1 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 26, 2012, 03:23:08 PM »

My 870 (not sure when it was made) was purchased used 15 or so years ago. It has served me well from rabbits to turkeys to black bears. Mine looks the part, but I have not been able to make it quit. It will never be mistaken for an English "Best" gun, but they will last several lifetimes

Scibaer · « **Reply #9 on:** April 27, 2012, 01:44:49 PM »

yeah i dont doubt it, and after talking to a few fellas about thier mossburgs ( and mavericks ) i think the remmy is the way to go.
but.. i wonder about the NEF pardner pump , say in comparsion to the 870

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #10 on:** April 27, 2012, 03:37:13 PM »

They are ugly but work well.
The Benelli Nova.

Scibaer · « **Reply #11 on:** April 28, 2012, 12:54:32 AM »

a relative of mine bought one, .. looks like something from star wars, shoots great and cost is on par with its quality..
but its not for me. i handled a benelli m90 and a spas 12 in the service, they are not what i'm wanting in my collection at all.

so far i have .. a marlin model 60 .22 a marlin model 336 rc .30-30 for big and small rifles. now im looking at shotguns.

luckydawg13 · « **Reply #12 on:** April 28, 2012, 04:30:00 AM »

my vote rem 870 it's just a work horse of a gun it dint look as good as my BPS
but it allways goes bang

Wyo. Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #13 on:** April 28, 2012, 06:27:18 AM »

$:-\$ I love pump shotguns...sold about 8 doubles several years ago, and decided for the rest of my shooting, I would stick with my first love, the pump..after my first single barrel the pump gun was my next purchase...a 20 ga. Ithaca model 37..the a whole line of 12'a...the 12 ga. is still my favorite..but have had all ga. s but the 16...my choice would also be the 870 and perhaps and older one...but my 20's have chokes and I like that feature...my favorite 870 12 also has choices and that is one of the reasons it is my favorite..I can put and IC in for quail, a mod. for general upla nd game and a full for gobblers ..it is an old model 870, but I put a new barrel on it to take chokes...so far I have collected most of the famous American pumps, and love them all..but the 870 12 ga. field would be my choice if I had to have just one...If I were going to hunt only upland game, no waterfowl, no steel shot, then the 20 ga. three inch would look good..I doubt I would use many 3" shells but I want that option...finally, I would look at the used gun market...you won't take the loss on one of those you will on a new one if you don't find it to be what you want...and there can be some real deals out there..in my country, shotguns are down the list from rifles, and handguns...at a recent gun show, I picked up a beautiful model 37 Ithaca with a solid rib for $200....for me a real buy..in other parts of the country I have looked them over for twice the money and not in as good a shape as this one...

Scibaer · « **Reply #14 on:** April 28, 2012, 07:10:22 AM »

with modern ammo and choke selections , is the 12 ga really needed ? short of maybe taking a goose ?

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #15 on:** April 28, 2012, 07:50:13 AM »

Quote from: Scibaer on April 28, 2012, 12:54:32 AM

a relative of mine bought one, .. looks like something from star wars, shoots great and cost is on par with its quality..
but its not for me. i handled a benelli m90 and a spas 12 in the service, they are not what i'm wanting in my collection at all.

so far i have .. a marlin model 60 .22 a marlin model 336 rc .30-30 for big and small rifles. now im looking at shotguns.

Then a search of the used racks for an 870 wingmaster in 20 ga.
Hard to beat the classic.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #16 on:** April 28, 2012, 07:57:00 AM »

Quote from: Scibaer on April 28, 2012, 07:10:22 AM

with modern ammo and choke selections , is the 12 ga really needed ? short of maybe taking a goose ?

Most pumps will allow you to go to 3" shells for the 30 ga.
Where the 12 ga has a superoirty is in the payload and more shot means longer distance.
You can change this with heavier shot. So while a 12 ga shell can pak 100 #2 steel pellets a 3" 20 ga shell can pack the same 100 Pellets in #4 Heavy shot that weigh the same as the larger #2 steel pellets.
The other advantage the 12 ga has is price for the speciality shells.
A box of 20 ga and 12 ga of standard trap and upland game loads when you look at the duck and deer loads the 20 ga gets more expensive and harder to find.

mannyrock · « **Reply #17 on:** April 29, 2012, 02:00:54 AM »

The Remington 870 Wingmaster is top of the line, but even the older used ones are pretty expensive. Plus, there is an issue of being able to change barrels. The older ones (the standard weight, pre-1971?) will not take the later barrels.

For what you are talking about, I would get a Mossberg 500. A used one in very nice condition in 20 gauge with wooden stocks and 26 inch barrel sold on GB last night for just $189! Wingmasters in this condition go for $400 to $500!

Yes, the Mossberg 500 has a plastic safety button will occasionally break. But, Brownells sells a steel replacement one for pretty cheap. So, just install a steel one and forget about it.

Do not under any circumstances buy a Maverick 88 or other cheapened Mossberg 500. Some work great, others have big problems. A used in 500 in great condition can be had for the same price as a new 88.

Hope this helps.

Mannyrock

Scibaer · « **Reply #18 on:** April 29, 2012, 02:44:42 AM »

i am finding out that's very true.
i went to all the local gun shops yesterday, used 870's in any condition are $300 plus. wingmasters are closer to $450 and more.
the 500's can be had for 1/2 those prices, and the older ones seem to be just as good function wise.
i handled , the 500, 870 and the parder. the older 500's and 870's are nicer then the new ones for sure.
the pardners felt as nice as the rest of them, but i have some concerns over availibilty for parts, repairs and any resale value, long term.
and i thought about picking up a nice older 500. now that i know i can get a steel safety , that makes me more inclined to get the 500.
its a tough decision though . and i still need to go and visit williams gunsite in davison and dick williams in saginaw and his sons shop in auburn .. they have the most used guns in my area before i buy anything .
keeping in mind this will be my only pump gun , for any hunting i will do. i do have a truck gun shorty single shot, but thats another story

Buckskin · « **Reply #19 on:** April 29, 2012, 03:00:52 AM »

I have had an 870 Wingmaster since 84' and used it for everything until about 12 years ago, since then it has been designated as a slug gun with rifled barrel on it. I would like to know how many deer it has put down... I also have a Nova which I bought for the 3 1/2" loads for goose and turkey. I hate that gun. Part of it is me as I tend to short stroke it, being so used to the three inch stroke of the 870... But also it has a tendancy not to lock the chamber, really have to slam it. I won a BPS last fall, great looking gun which I bought a 30" barrel for it and used it for trap over the winter. Good shooting gun, but AA hulls stuck in the gun quite a bit for some reason. If I were a left it would be my choice. But I would say hands down, 870 is the best pump gun around. I am looking for a nice 20 gauge Wingmaster for my boy.

GEMSTATE · « **Reply #20 on:** April 30, 2012, 07:34:32 PM »

I've had my 870 wingmaster for 42 years. Still goin strong. It didn't know it needed 3 and 3 and a half inch chambers back then. By all means get what you can afford but your not going to top an 870 IMO.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #21 on:** May 01, 2012, 01:45:59 AM »

Quote from: Scibaer on April 29, 2012, 02:44:42 AM

i am finding out that's very true.
i went to all the local gun shops yesterday, used 870's in any condition are $300 plus. wingmasters are closer to $450 and more.
the 500's can be had for 1/2 those prices, and the older ones seem to be just as good function wise.
i handled , the 500, 870 and the parder. the older 500's and 870's are nicer then the new ones for sure.
the pardners felt as nice as the rest of them, but i have some concerns over availibilty for parts, repairs and any resale value, long term.
and i thought about picking up a nice older 500. now that i know i can get a steel safety , that makes me more inclined to get the 500.
its a tough decision though . and i still need to go and visit williams gunsite in davison and dick williams in saginaw and his sons shop in auburn .. they have the most used guns in my area before i buy anything .
keeping in mind this will be my only pump gun , for any hunting i will do. i do have a truck gun shorty single shot, but thats another story

You may find a steel safety but it's attached to plastic... You will not get around the plastic fire control that WILL break rendering your gun useless.

You may save a few $$ going Mossy but you will not get a better gun.

It's not really a sporting gun. But for defense I would take a 590 equip up for a 870 in terms of reliability. In other words I would stake my life on the 870 OR the 590. NEVER the 500...

CW

Scibaer · « **Reply #22 on:** May 01, 2012, 10:26:00 AM »

cw, i dont doubt what your saying at all, infact i was hoping you'd comment when i made the original post.
and as of right now, i have not bought anything, i'm still shopping for the right gun.
but the 870's are considerably more spendy then the 500's . infact, i saw new 870 express' for less then used ones at some gun stores

i guy i know has both and he said i could shoot a few shells thru them to see how they felt to me..

cwlongshot · « **Reply #23 on:** May 01, 2012, 10:40:13 AM »

Thats the best deal!!

Shoot them side by side.

I am not a Mossy hater, I actually shoot them very well. Its just if the chips are down, I would not be my first or even second choice. BUT many many are out there serving there owners very well.

You now know there problems, the plastic fire control and plastic safety.

CW

Scibaer · « **Reply #24 on:** May 01, 2012, 01:13:04 PM »

so, what parts are plastic in the fire control ?
and what dates did mossy go to the plastic parts ?

cwlongshot · « **Reply #25 on:** May 01, 2012, 01:40:18 PM »

Quote from: Scibaer on May 01, 2012, 01:13:04 PM

so, what parts are plastic in the fire control ?
and what dates did mossy go to the plastic parts ?

From the day it was released the fire control housing has been plastic.

Our military called for metal parts in these areas when they adopted the 590 for special forces.

CW

Scibaer · « **Reply #26 on:** May 02, 2012, 10:02:06 AM »

i.e. plastic ( polymer ) fire control...
my marlin 60 is plasic, so is my ruger 10/22
my handi's are plastic ..
and my buddy, ( whom shotguns i will shoot this weekend ) says both his 500 and 870 are plastic.
my kahr was darn near all plastic and so is my ruger lcp 380.

now, ..wait for it.... what makes the mossy 500's fire group any difference in the real world ?
my buddy says that he got his 870 in 1986, its and express model with wood furniture and has seem many days afield with no issues.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #27 on:** May 03, 2012, 01:46:39 AM »

Quote from: Scibaer on May 02, 2012, 10:02:06 AM

i.e. plastic ( polymer ) fire control...
my marlin 60 is plasic, so is my ruger 10/22
my handi's are plastic ..
and my buddy, ( whom shotguns i will shoot this weekend ) says both his 500 and 870 are plastic.
my kahr was darn near all plastic and so is my ruger lcp 380.

now, ..wait for it.... what makes the mossy 500's fire group any difference in the real world ?
my buddy says that he got his 870 in 1986, its and express model with wood furniture and has seem many days afield with no issues.

Difference.... Mossbergs break.....all the time! The area where the pins run thru the frame only need one sharp strike and out pops the trigger group now you have a club instead of a firearm.

I have worked in the firearms industry for almost 20 years I cannot CPU t to times I have been to OF Mossberg getting them repaired.

Plastic is part of our world. I love my glocks. Plastic in a Mossberg, makes an otherwise good gun worthless.

CW

popplecop · « **Reply #28 on:** May 03, 2012, 04:13:13 PM »

I've worked on shotguns for a gunsmith friend of mine since I retired (1988). Have worked on just about every brand on pump shotgun out there. First of all on the Moss. 500 the only plastic part I've seen is the safety slide its self, rest of the mechinism in the trigger group is metal. If they changed in the last few years not seeing them in for repairs. If I would reccommenda used one in 20 ga. it would be one of these: Rem. Wingmaster, Ithaca, Browning, Rem. Md. 31 or 17, Win. Md. 12 or a Mossberg 500. And not in any particular order either. My personal slides are Ithaca37s both from the 50s, Rem. Wingmaster 870 16 ga. Skeet Model from 52, 3 Rem. 31s from the 40s. All mine are in 16 ga. except one Ithaca is a 12, need a nice 20 from the 50s or earlier to round out my Ithacas. I just have a personal preference for pre 1960 pumps and not a reflection on newer ones.

Scibaer · « **Reply #29 on:** May 03, 2012, 08:46:10 PM »

well tomorrow ( saturday ) is the gun show. i'm going, and plan on being there when the doors open.
i'm going to see what i can find, and see what is offered for 870's and 500's.
williams gun shop has a 870 but they want more for it then a new one costs

either way, i will be sure to let you know what i find...or get ...or turn down..

i have no doubt what so ever that the older models are better built then the new pumps.
with less plastics, real wood and better steel. but a 20 gauge is what i'm after in any make or model