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Offline fastchicken

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Rem 700 locking lugs
« on: March 22, 2012, 04:45:23 PM »
   My newest 700, an SPS in 243, is not making contact on the top locking lug. Best I can tell is its about 2 thousandths off.
  I have an ADL that both it's and the SPS bolt show good contact, but neither bolt shows contact on the upper lug in the SPS which makes me think the lug recess in the receiver is not square, or the bottom is just a hair longer.
 Should I spend the 25 bucks to send it back on the chance they'll say it functions fine, is not a problem and not do anything about it, or just put some lapping compound on it and work the bolt till i get contact? It doesn't shoot bad, not as as well as the ADL but acceptable.
 I'm going to call them tomorrow but I know I'll get the standard "send it in and we'll take a look at it" response. It'd be nice if I could talk with someone who would be able to tell me if that's even a problem as far as their concerned or that the lack of contact is acceptable and don't waste my money and their time.
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Offline Frank46

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Re: Rem 700 locking lugs
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2012, 05:42:16 PM »
I had an occasion to send a 700 vs in 308 back to big green. Waste of my time and money. I was told it met their specs whatever they were/are. If you do go to the lapping route. Be sure to check headspace before and after. Reason for this is that you may have borderline good headspace to start with and excessive after lapping. Not good. Frank
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Offline gunnut69

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Re: Rem 700 locking lugs
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2012, 09:29:31 PM »
Afraid I've not had good luck with Rem. customer 'service' but always like to give the factory a chance to rectify it's mistakes... I hope keep us up to speed on how this one turns out.. Also just curious as to how you measured the lugs and their seats?
 
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Offline Nobade

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Re: Rem 700 locking lugs
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2012, 02:33:00 AM »
I am also curious, did you check it with the trigger in place? The trigger exerts upward pressure on the back of the bolt and keeps the top lug from touching until the moment it is released. This is, of course, why the lugs should never be lapped with the trigger in place.

The way I check lug engagement is: Remove the striker assembly from the bolt. Use a table edge and a penny if you don't have the right tool. Put black marker on the rear of the lugs. Insert bolt. Put a flat faced brass or plastic tipped cleaning rod in from the muzzle and push hard on it, holding the bolt against its seats. Run the bolt up and down a little, not allowing it to unlock. Check it out. See the wear pattern? Normally a factory Remington will have about 50% contact, on both lugs. It is exceptionally rare for only one lug to be touching. Of course this is why we blueprint them - to get 100% lug contact and everything straight. But out of the box they are usually not bad if you measure them properly.
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Rem 700 locking lugs
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2012, 03:02:09 AM »
If the gun is accurate, then it's not a problem.
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Offline Brithunter

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Re: Rem 700 locking lugs
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2012, 03:54:17 AM »
Now that is a typical dumb swampy answer  ::) .


If the top lug is not making contact upon firing the bolt lug will be slapped back into contact. Repeating this time and time again will peen both lug and seat.  Of course this will also apply bending forces on the bolt and receiver.


A dummy cartridge case modified or made to hold a spring loaded plunger against the bolt face would in my mind be a better way to check this lug engagement as it replicates the pressure of a loaded cartridge. In fact i am surprised there is not such a tool already on the market. What with all the after market bits for the 700's.


The more I read about the Rem 700 the more I dislike it.
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Offline charles p

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Re: Rem 700 locking lugs
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2012, 04:47:29 AM »
There is a tool for lapping lugs.  Requires pulling the barrel I recall.  Never done it but once.  Had a 700 blueprinted and the gunsmith sent me home with the receiver, bolt, compound, and a spring loaded tool.  I remember he told me to lube the cocking cam well so I would not wear it down during the lapping.  Mine is now slick as glass and perfectly lapped. 
I've heard of running a wooden dowl rod down the barrel to put rearward pressure on the bolt face.  Seems like this should work also.
I have an old Browning BBR with nine lubs.  Imagine trying to tune that.
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Offline fastchicken

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Re: Rem 700 locking lugs
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2012, 11:39:54 AM »
  I checked it by putting a small dab of grease on the lug and worked the handle a few times without unlocking it. Grease would smear on the bottom but not the top lug. A piece of scotch tape [.002"] on the top would smear.
  I hadn't thought about the trigger/cocking piece before so I pulled the pin out and got some contact up top.
That was after I called Remington this morning and was actually pleased with the rep I spoke with.
  After explaining my initial findings, and after his initial "Send it in and we'll check it out" answer, I told him I just want to save my money shipping and their time checking he said unless I was having a function or accuracy issue more than likely they wouldn't do anything about it, that it would be within their tolerance.
 He asked what kind of groups I get, I told him, and he said save my money as it would just get sent back.
   My only concern was that there are two lugs for a reason and I figured they should both contact, but after checking without the cocking piece putting pressure on it I found they did contact, and after talking with Rem, the lug would still serve it's purpose, keeping the bolt in place, all is good.
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Rem 700 locking lugs
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2012, 01:27:50 PM »
Quote from: Swampman on March 23, 2012, 03:02:09 AM
If the gun is accurate, then it's not a problem.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough.  If the gun is accurate, it's not a problem.  The fact is, one lug is plenty.  Lapping the lugs will create excessive headspace.  Not a peoblem if you're a gunsmith.  You just set the barrel back a turn and run a chamber reamer in to get it right again.
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"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline Brithunter

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Re: Rem 700 locking lugs
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2012, 01:56:11 PM »
Darn it talk about backwards steps. The Krag had one lug I believe and was considered weak because of it.


What I fail to understand is how people just accept this poor quality control and still buy more of the same.. No wonder Big Green has no interest in fixing or getting it right. The folks who buy will still buy it anyway so why bother?


I am surprised they don't just sent em out in kit form... the buyer can finish the machining and assembly but the price is still the same... They could make more profit that way  ::) [size=78%].[/size]
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Rem 700 locking lugs
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2012, 02:48:45 PM »
Nothing wrong with the rifle at all.  It's still the best selling and most accurate production rifle in the world.  Nobody wants that old world junk anymore.
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"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline fastchicken

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Re: Rem 700 locking lugs
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2012, 02:51:16 PM »
Quote from: Swampman on March 23, 2012, 01:27:50 PM
Quote from: Swampman on March 23, 2012, 03:02:09 AM
If the gun is accurate, then it's not a problem.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough.  If the gun is accurate, it's not a problem.  The fact is, one lug is plenty.  Lapping the lugs will create excessive headspace.  Not a peoblem if you're a gunsmith.  You just set the barrel back a turn and run a chamber reamer in to get it right again.

 You were crystal clear, but if you read my post you would have seen that I never said it was a problem, accuracy was fine, I was just nitpicking more than anything. When I told the rep that it shoots around an inch he chuckled when he said not to waste my money.
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Rem 700 locking lugs
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2012, 02:53:50 PM »
If it's not shooting better than 1" then you need to try different ammo.  My comments were to Brithunter who is attacking me as is his normal behavior.  It's his way of compensating.
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"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Brithunter

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Re: Rem 700 locking lugs
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2012, 03:14:46 PM »
Quote from: Swampman on March 23, 2012, 02:48:45 PM
Nothing wrong with the rifle at all.  It's still the best selling and most accurate production rifle in the world.  Nobody wants that old world junk anymore.




 ;D  I take it you have had your monthly stipend from Big Green then?


Unlike you a lot of people are far more discerning on their choice of rifles. In fact around these parts you will have a hard time finding a Remington on the gun shop racks. As previously mentioned on these forums the local gunshop (even if it is 35 miles away) stopped stocking Remingtons after having three new ones that were incapable of putting any factory ammunition tried through them into 3" at 60 paces.

The importers who handle the warranty returns reported that this met with Remingtons acceptance standards so there was nothing wrong with the rifles. These were new HB models meant for varmints. At 60 paces one might as well use a 12 bore on fox none of the three rifles could be used on normal fox shooting at 150 yards plus.

The shop owner sent all three back and told their rep to shove their rifles were the sun does not shine. he then sold the very upset customer a Tikka T3 at a vastly reduced rate making a loss on the sale to keep a customer loyal and happy. He is very happy with his Tikka by all accounts the Foxes are not so happy I might add ;D .


A new 700 varmint with laminated stock costs around $1400 here a Tikka T3 Stainless synthetic costs around $1200. A 700 VSF costs around the $1530 mark. Had to do a web search to find dealers who stock them both I found are about 300+ miles away.


Go to the club range here and you will see Tikka, Sako, Heym, Sauer, Blaser, RPA and oh yes one chap has a Weatherby. Howa CZ and Brno are popular too. I do not recall one Remington.


On the older rifles one sees Parker-Hale, BSA Midland, Voerre Konigsberg, Husqvarna again I do not recall a Remington. I knew one chap who had an early VSS in .223 of all the people I shot with in Five different clubs that's the only centrefire Remington I can recall.


Oh that dealer is now a Kimber rifle stockist.
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Rem 700 locking lugs
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2012, 03:30:38 PM »
It seems the decerning (smart) shooters hang on to their Model 700s.  There are of course more of those cheaply made european rifles because they are more affordable.  Not much money over there in the old country according to the BBC.
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"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline fastchicken

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Re: Rem 700 locking lugs
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2012, 04:29:49 PM »
Quote from: Swampman on March 23, 2012, 02:53:50 PM
If it's not shooting better than 1" then you need to try different ammo.  My comments were to Brithunter who is attacking me as is his normal behavior.  It's his way of compensating.

  I guess I need to send all my rifles to you to shoot and show me how it's done.
Your coveted Core Lokt ammo has actually shot worse in every rifle I have ever owned. Winchester and Federal have shot 1/2 to 1/4 the groups Core Lokts have, but I handload for all mine now and I'm just fine if it "only" shoots an inch cause I shoot for fun and to hunt, not to see how tiny a group I can put on paper.
 I'm making 30lbs of venison brats tomorrow thanks to my 1"+ gun, sure will taste a lot better than all that paper you're punching :D .
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Offline charles p

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Re: Rem 700 locking lugs
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2012, 04:40:10 PM »
I like Rem rifles and I like CoreLokt ammo.  They perform for me.
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Offline fastchicken

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Re: Rem 700 locking lugs
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2012, 04:58:37 PM »
I like the 700s as well, probably all I'll ever buy, nothing against the CL ammo, I've just had others shoot better.
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Offline gunnut69

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Re: Rem 700 locking lugs
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2012, 05:16:11 PM »
Brithunter, I would appreciate you keeping your attacks somewhere else. This is going to be a civil forum.. Keep the discussion on track! The QC done by rem' is truly poor but that is the state of the industry just now. It has kept our gunmakers in business, and even a few British makers that folded in Briton and were moved here.. Civil plese,,,no more warnings!
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Offline fastchicken

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Re: Rem 700 locking lugs
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2012, 05:40:03 PM »
Quote from: Brithunter on March 23, 2012, 03:14:46 PM



...incapable of putting any factory ammunition tried through them into 3" at 60 paces


A new 700 varmint with laminated stock costs around $1400 here a Tikka T3 Stainless synthetic costs around $1200. A 700 VSF costs around the $1530 mark. Had to do a web search to find dealers who stock them both I found are about 300+ miles away.

 3" @ 60 paces, even I find that hard to believe, I'm sure you saw that firsthand, to be able to repeat that.
 That SPS cost me $425 new vs 600 plus for any of the others you mentioned, so guess which my cheap a$$ is going to buy.
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Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Rem 700 locking lugs
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2012, 06:01:30 PM »
Ah Swampus, BritHunter, I love you guys...  :'(   I don't find much entertaining in my life any more so you guys are a rare treat!  Thanks.   ;D
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Offline Brithunter

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Re: Rem 700 locking lugs
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2012, 11:16:39 PM »
Quote from: gunnut69 on March 23, 2012, 05:16:11 PM
Brithunter, I would appreciate you keeping your attacks somewhere else. This is going to be a civil forum.. Keep the discussion on track! The QC done by rem' is truly poor but that is the state of the industry just now. It has kept our gunmakers in business, and even a few British makers that folded in Briton and were moved here.. Civil plese,,,no more warnings!


Ahhh sorry I did not realise that it's not allowed to criticise Big green or their rabid supporter...... Sorry.


As for the British production rifles well we can thank the help of a company called Modular Industries with the help of a nice American Mr Leitner Weiss for the demise of Parker-Hale. I have Mr Weiss's card somewhere and had a custom rifle ordered under the Bremmer Arms banner which Modular hid behind when teh crap hit the fan and P-H was closed down real quick to avoid lengthy jail terms in the US.. This was all over the Springfield 03 they were manufacturing or re-manufacturing as they were  using original actions but scrubbing and re-numbering them  and they imported some into the US it seems which is a big, of was a very big, No-No.


BSA was the victim of asset strippers who sold it all off and the sites they owned have now all be re-developed. one has a shopping mall/retail park on it others have housing and other stuff. Of course the political climate did not help and your going to find out all about that in the US if Obama gets back in.


The bespoke makers are doing well plus of course Accuracy International.


As for the maker who went to the US one can only assume you mean Rigby. Well due to poor sales for them Rigby tried to move back to the UK but it seems there was a falling out and it all ended in nasty courts cases. I like Rigby rifles but there is no way I would buy a Kalifornian one just the same as  I would not buy a new Indian made Jaguar/Land Rover or Chinese MG. If I ever fall into enough money for a new one then I'll call on Ron Wharton of Rigby's  ;) . Luckily for me I managed to get my own Rigby serviced by the REAL Rigby when they were still at the Elephant & Castle in London.  That service should see the rifle through another quarter century at least and so see me out.
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Offline Brithunter

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Re: Rem 700 locking lugs
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2012, 11:35:08 PM »
Quote from: fastchicken on March 23, 2012, 05:40:03 PM
Quote from: Brithunter on March 23, 2012, 03:14:46 PM



...incapable of putting any factory ammunition tried through them into 3" at 60 paces


A new 700 varmint with laminated stock costs around $1400 here a Tikka T3 Stainless synthetic costs around $1200. A 700 VSF costs around the $1530 mark. Had to do a web search to find dealers who stock them both I found are about 300+ miles away.

 3" @ 60 paces, even I find that hard to believe, I'm sure you saw that firsthand, to be able to repeat that.
 That SPS cost me $425 new vs 600 plus for any of the others you mentioned, so guess which my cheap a$$ is going to buy.


No Mr fastchicken,


     I was not invited to the shoot. The owner of the shop and two of his sons took the rifle to the shooting lease and tried it out. They then returend the the shop and carefully checked the rifle over and repeated the test with no better results so back to the shop and fit a brand new scope from stock. Not a cheap and cheerful one but one from Swaroski. They then took it back to the shooting lease with a selection of ever type of ammunition they stocked in .223 and it performed no better which is why it was returned the replacement proved to be no better and they had to go through the sme trials with that after the customer brought it back the third replacement was taken straight to the lease to test before being thrown back at the importers are rubbish.


One has to wonder why the owner would lie about this? He was certainly upset when #2 son was persuaded by the importer rep some time later to order in a blasted Rem 770. As far as I am aware that rifle is still gathering dust in the corner of the bottom rack as unless they find a real sucker no one will buy it. If he offered it to me for free I would politely decline as the chances of even being able to sell in on are minimal at best so one would be lumbered with it..


Tis a bone of contention here in the UK that the Tikka's which are made closer to the UK than the US cost over twice the price here that they do in the US. It's also been noticed that scope makers like Meopta, Zeiss and Swaroski have vastly reduced their warranty periods on their scope here in the UK yet the US still gets a 30 year warranty.


Tis not known as Ripp Off Britain for no reason  >:( .


 Of course such things do not concern me as I cannot afford these items new anyway.


Am currently awaiting the return of a Meopta 7x50 scope as a previous owner tried to adjust the parallax for use at short range and despite it being under 10 year old and still in warranty period even here in the UK because it has been tampered with the warranty is null and void it seems. The importers forwarded it to a repair agent who has repaired the damage serviced and re-gassed it.

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