Author Topic: To heck with them all! Back to a cheap Remington bolt. (Read 8540 times)

mannyrock · « **on:** February 18, 2012, 09:49:30 AM »

Dear Guys,

Having reached old age, I decided that I really want a nice .22 bolt action sporter, with a walnut stock. After weeks of research, I must say that I am disgusted. Here's what I've found:

1. The Ruger 77/22, a $700 rifle that apparently has a factory trigger that is worse than garbage. Plan on spending another $100 to get a decent one. A very short barrel to boot.

2. The CZ 452, a nice looking bolt action rifle, made in Serbia, that costs $400 plus, with a safety that works BACKWARDS. For me, an accident waiting to happen.

3. The new Browning T-Bolt, a $700 rifle (in the heavy barrel model), with beautiful bluing and a beautiful stock, that has a clumbsy hunk of metal sticking out two inches to the side of it, like a WWI mauser, that will eject the shell if you catch it on anything.

4. The Browning A-bolt in .22, a nice rifle that isn't made anymore and is now priced at a collectors piece, at $800. If it is like most Browning products, you won't be able to find a new magazine 10 years from now. (I didn't think it was humanly possible to take a beautiful piece of walnut and finish it so that it looks like its made of plastic!)

5. The Remington 541, a beautiful rifle in the $700 range, which according to most reviewers won't shoot worth a darn.

Man, I'm am totally bummed out (as we use to say). When I was a teenager, my uncle had a Remington 511 Scoremaster, with a Williams Peepsight, and with a barrel that had been cut and target crowned at 22 inches. I could hit anything with that rifle out to 100 yards. Yes, the trigger was not great, but it got smoother as you used it, and it was very predictable. I got 1.5 inch groups from the bench, which, since it was a hunting rifle, was much more than good enough.

I see on the boards that these old Scoremasters in VG+ condion are going for around $250. I think that the folks making the new high priced rifles will just have to keep them. I refuse to play!

(P.S.- Savage isn't making its nice .22 bolt with a walnut stock anymore. Just a walnut toned stock.)

Best, Mannyrock

Bigeasy · « **Reply #1 on:** February 18, 2012, 10:54:07 AM »

A couple you havent mentioned, but easy to find used -

The Browning / Winchester model 52. Great quality and accuracy. Had one, wish I never sold it.

The Kimber .22 bolt action. Mine is a "Hunter grade". Looks lik a pre-64 Winchester. Great finish, trigger, accuracy. Shoots into 1/3 inch at 50 yards with ammo it likes.

Larry

wvjoetc · « **Reply #2 on:** February 18, 2012, 11:56:04 AM »

mannyrock,

I don't think for the money you can beat the ol Remington 510-514 series 22's. I have a 511X that will shoot thumb nail groups at 50 yards with Remington targets. The 511X has the grooved receiver, but I would not have a problem to drill and tap one. I have a steel tube Weaver 2.5 on my 511 and it works great. You could go that route and keep about 500 bucks change in your pocket.

Joe

Swampman · « **Reply #3 on:** February 18, 2012, 11:59:58 AM »

I really like my 514. It was my fathers.

mannyrock · « **Reply #4 on:** February 18, 2012, 12:23:45 PM »

Thanks for all replies folks.

The original Kimber 82 was a beautiful rifle, that's no longer made. You can find them for around $900, but don't lose that magazine. Originals mags are almost impossible to find, and they are $50 if you do locate one. Would I be able to find a spare part if something breaks? I'm not so sure.

My ex-wife use to shoot at the .22 silouette matches, out to 100 yards, using a single shot Remington 510. She had no problem with the trigger and won lots of matches. She paid $62 for the rifle at a pawn shop in 1984.

Manny

Graybeard · « **Reply #5 on:** February 18, 2012, 12:40:16 PM »

Quote

5. The Remington 541, a beautiful rifle in the $700 range, which according to most reviewers won't shoot worth a darn.

You need to find a new source of reviews if they said the 541-T is not an accurate rifle. I had one of the original S models and we've had three of the T models. Everyone of them were capable of shooting five shots into an inch or less at a full 100 yards with ammo it prefers.

We still have one of them here and I wish I'd kept the other last 541-T we had. My cousin Lewis has the heavy barrel one that I originally picked up for Faye. She found it too heavy so I sold it to Lewis and got her the standard barrel 541-T which is the one we still have.

I won a lot of NRA sanction silhouette matchs with mine and Faye won the only competition match she ever shot in with hers. If you can't keep it under a half inch at 50 yards with one of them then the problem is the scope or the nut pulling the trigger. I've yet to see a more accurate 22 rifle than the ones we've owned. I'd pick up another in a heartbeat but I actually do not like clip fed 22s and am on the look out for a nice one with a tube magazine in fact I'd like two of them a bolt and a semiauto both with tube mag.

Do not pass up the 541-T or S models because you heard false rumors they won't shoot. They will not disappoint you and have adjustable triggers you can take down to about one pound if you want to and still be safe. There is no finer rimfire out there and not many that can match it. The Winchester 52 is one of the few along with the Anchutz guns.

spruce · « **Reply #6 on:** February 18, 2012, 12:41:48 PM »

Two more you didn't mention - the Mossbergs and the Marlin bolts.

Neither would win a beauty contest, but they were excellent shooters - and parts are plentiful.

STUMPJMPR · « **Reply #7 on:** February 18, 2012, 01:09:31 PM »

Get a Henry lever and don't look back.

evidrine · « **Reply #8 on:** February 18, 2012, 01:25:26 PM »

I second that on the Henry lever. My personal favorite. Of course I have always had a sweet spot for a lever rifle. If bolts are what you like, I bought my son a Glenfield mod. 25 and it shoots like a dream. Never could get into the autos.

Swampman · « **Reply #9 on:** February 18, 2012, 01:47:29 PM »

I'm not a Henry fan. I'd rather have a Marlin 60.

tranders · « **Reply #10 on:** February 18, 2012, 02:05:15 PM »

I have a 541 T in the safe that was a gift from my Dad that I have yet to shoot.

I sold a Winchester 69A a few years back that I kick myself for doing. Loved going to the range pissing off my buddies with their custom 10/22s.

teamnelson · « **Reply #11 on:** February 18, 2012, 02:07:54 PM »

Savage Mark II-FVT, [/size]

5 rounds detachable magazine, 6 lbs. currently selling for $238 from the CMP

[/size]

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #12 on:** February 18, 2012, 02:44:40 PM »

The Cz may have a backwards Safety compared to the Winchester 64 wing.
I have two Cz 452 rifles. Like both very much. Well made rifle, it feels like a real rifle. The bolt is well placed and using the bolt while looking down the sights or through the scope is normal like shooting one of my M700's, M70, or M77's
The safety may seem backwards but when walking around with the rifle at port arms the safety naturally comes off as you pick the rifle up to shoot and goes back on just as easy as you return the rifle to port arms with a simple flick of your thumb. Takes about two magazines to get used to it.
My first Cz was the Military trainer and the only thing I did to it was unscrew the silly 3/4" European sling swivels and replace them with standard posts and quick detach swivels and added a 1" military sling.
The 452 Varmint already came with the posts and it sports a 1 1/4" military sling.
If you live near me I'll let you shoot both and you may change your mind.
The triggers are crisp and clean. My latest Marlins have plastic triggers and no matter what you do you can not take the over travel out of them.

BruceP · « **Reply #13 on:** February 18, 2012, 04:47:16 PM »

I also have a 541T standard barrel and 1/2" or better at 50 yds is no problem with good ammo.

Bruce

Victor3 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 18, 2012, 07:19:24 PM »

For a dead simple/reliable walnut & steel bolt .22, I really like the old Win 69A.

Although the best of them were never made with the old world quality found in my cheapest CZ 452 ($250 Scout model), the 69A does have a "normal" safety.

mannyrock · « **Reply #15 on:** February 19, 2012, 03:19:43 AM »

Thanks for the additional suggestions guys. I'll take a look at the Rem 541 S, and the Winchester 69A.

I've got to have walnut and blue steel. That's the whole point.

Also have to have a detachable magazine, because for me the entire point of having a .22 around is to be able to load and unload it in an instant. (I mainly use it for shooting troublesome varmints on my little 3 acres around my house.) Tube fed rifles are an enormous pain to load and unload, and I don't feel comfortable leaving my rifle loaded in the house. They are fine for hunting though.

Regards, Manny

pastorp · « **Reply #16 on:** February 19, 2012, 07:23:38 AM »

As long as my grand kids are not visiting, I have no problem leaving the tube full on a tube fed 22. I simply don't chamber another round until I'm wanting to shoot again.
Mags are too easily lost. But then I've bought several tube fed 22s that the inner tube was gone.

Ladobe · « **Reply #17 on:** February 19, 2012, 07:58:42 AM »

1. The trigger on my 77/22 was excellent right out of the box, and still is 10's of K's of rounds down the tube since. Might be because I bought it new in 1985 less than a year after they came out - kind of like the difference between the 77R's and the 77 MKII's. Loved all my early 77's, but I wouldn't own one of the newer ones. So don't discount the 77/22's, especially if you can find an earlier one anyway. GM has barrels for them so even a shot-out barrel is not a concern. I added a GM 17HM2 barrel to my 7/22, so its even more versatile now as a switch barrel. Will most be likely be the very last firearm I ever sell.

2. Have had a few CZ's and they were excellent rifles right out of the box. You must be too old to learn new tricks if the safety is a problem.

There are differences between many firearms brands/models that you just adapt to and they become second nature. I've never had a problem going back and forth between different characteristics. That included with CZ's and any other model at Digger Wars where I usually had 16-18 firearms along and switched between them freely many times a day when barrels got hot. Have a 452 American 17HM2 still new in the box I never got around to, but it has a great trigger just like all the centerfire CZ's I've had and shot, and I'd bet will be as accurate as they all were to boot. And don't forget BRNO's rimfires. My 1949 ZKW465 is still a tackdriver (22 Hornet), and the double set triggers as good as they get.

3/4. Can't speak on the Browning "bolt" rimfires... I've only had their semi-auto 22's.

5. I had a Remy 541-S many years ago. Also had several other Remy bolt and semi-auto rimfires years ago. They were all good. Again maybe because it was when most firearms were just made better than they are today. All the Winchesters, Stevens, Mossbergs, High Standards, etc I also had decades ago were better than those made today.

--- Conspicuously missing from your list is Anschutz. They are a favorite of serious competiton shooters, and for good reason.

As for the oldie's: Parts for them can still be had, especially the more popular models. Most can be bought for a song so even if you have to rebarrel you're still less into them than a brand new one. And most of the oldies have real wood stocks (walnut, maple, etc) and not just stained birch/etc to look sort of like a real stock.

evidrine · « **Reply #18 on:** February 19, 2012, 11:44:08 AM »

Quote from: pastorp on February 19, 2012, 07:23:38 AM

I have no problem leaving the tube full on a tube fed 22. I simply don't chamber another round until I'm wanting to shoot again.

Same here. Much rather a tube fed over detachable mag anyday.

mannyrock · « **Reply #19 on:** February 20, 2012, 03:16:56 AM »

Dear Guys,

This has turned out to be a good post. I have learned alot.

The Anschutz are fantastic rifles, and older ones can be found at gunshows for around $500. Problem for me is that most of the ones I have seen have magazines that only hold 4 rounds. A huge aggravation for a sporter or plinker.

The CZ, again, is a beautiful rifle, but I have shot Win 70s my entire life, and having a reverse safety would for me be begging for an accident. As I've gotten older, I have found that the best way to avoid an accident is to simply "fail safe" yourself, by not placing yourself in a scenario that could likely give rise to one.

I did alot of research on the Winchester 69A. A beautiful rifle, lots of them around, and there are manyin VG+ to Excellent condition for around the $450 mark. But (and this really made me sick), the safetys are the same type as on a Moisan Nagan, pull a knurled knob and twist. Awk! That ruins it for me.

A prior post mentions that for the Ruger 77/22, a new barrel can be had from GM. What is GM please? I have never heard of them. If they offer barrels in 22 inch, then that might be something to consider.

The Ruger 77/22 is a strange bird. They have been around for a long long time. And yet, it is very rare to see a used one at a gunshow, and those that pop up are in extremely good condition, with asking prices of just $100 or so less than a new one.

This tells me that once people get the 77/22 straightened out, they keep them forever and take extremely good care of them.

Back to the Remington 511, though nice ones can be had in the $250 area, I can see some extra costs for these as well. I would want to have the receiver grooved to hold clamp-on bases, and have that long barrel cut and crowned at 22 inches. So, this would add another $150 or so, which would bring the total cost of the rifle up to around $400 or more. Funny how the math keeps working out on all of this.

Manny

guzzijohn · « **Reply #20 on:** February 20, 2012, 03:53:54 AM »

For accuracy and beautiful machine work I love my old Remington model 34. It will shoot any ammo very well and premium ammo great. I bought mine while in high school around 1970 for 14 dollars, well used. I shot the snot out of it as a teenager. The stock has had to have crack repair. With that being said, a few years back I fired it a 50 yards from the bench with Ely target ammo and using the stock iron sites I was able to place five shots in 3/4 inch and CCI stingers did the same but hit about an inch higher. Standard bulk Remington and Winchester stayed consistently around an inch. I can about match the accuracy with my 76 Marlin 39A with trigger job and a Weaver 4X using Ely target and it also like stingers. The 39A shoots bulk stuff at around 1.5-2" groups at 50. Consider a classic if you can find a good one.
GuzziJohn

jlchucker · « **Reply #21 on:** February 20, 2012, 03:53:56 AM »

Another good one that isn't produced any more are the Remington 580 series--a clip-fed bolt gun with a wood stock. One of my old girlfriends bought one years ago, and we shot it quite a bit. This version of Remington came in both left and right-handed, as I recall. She had a really accurate rifle there, for not much money. Sometimes, when I recall those days, I wish I'd kept the both of them.

drdougrx · « **Reply #22 on:** February 20, 2012, 03:58:46 AM »

Manny...you are right about the 77/22s. I have the 17HMR. It did cost $619 new and I did have Randy at CT Precision Chambering accuraize and do the trigger for a bit less than $200. It shoots sub MAO and I have a lot invested and....I'll keep it.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #23 on:** February 20, 2012, 04:17:11 AM »

For what its worth, I have a Ruger 7722 laminate with a 26 inch bbl. It is a true tack driver. I got it used for $400.00. I got it because I had just picked up a very expensive Remington Target 22. I tried Eley and fed target ammo in it and it shot poor. I tried other ammo and it also shot poor. I took it back to the store and they called the factory . Factory said they had a run of bad bbls. So I was given back my money , saw the Ruger and got it saved a couple hundred if I remember.

scootrd · « **Reply #24 on:** February 20, 2012, 04:32:01 AM »

I sure would like an old Weatherby Mark XXII 22 Auto. MFG'd from 1964 to 1989.
Or an RBI international . They would be my ultimate picks.

Ladobe · « **Reply #25 on:** February 20, 2012, 05:08:43 AM »

Quote from: mannyrock on February 20, 2012, 03:16:56 AM

A prior post mentions that for the Ruger 77/22, a new barrel can be had from GM. What is GM please? I have never heard of them. If they offer barrels in 22 inch, then that might be something to consider.

Green Mountain
http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/search.aspx?find=ruger%2077/22

It's been a long time since I visited their web site... but they sure have reduced the offerings for the 77/22 they once had. Used to be four times as many choices. The 17HM2 barrel I added to mine is no longer listed.

Quote

The Ruger 77/22 is a strange bird. They have been around for a long long time. And yet, it is very rare to see a used one at a gunshow, and those that pop up are in extremely good condition, with asking prices of just $100 or so less than a new one.

This tells me that once people get the 77/22 straightened out, they keep them forever and take extremely good care of them.[

They just don't come up for sale used often because folks love theirs and are not willing not easily part with them. Early on anyway they were very well made, had the appearance and feel of a serious big game rifle, so maybe that drives folks to take better care of them. Mines still mint even though its seen a lot of rounds down the tube and a lot of hard use. The "straightening out" part might apply to the later ones, but it sure wasn't needed with the earlier ones (the 77/17 is one of the newer ones). No idea what year that might have changed... might be that when they completely revamped the 77 centerfires in '91 (including its trigger) to become the MKII, they also changed the 77/22's. My 77's far outshined the later 77 MKII's. Also might be they just slacked off on the 77/22's as well.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #26 on:** February 20, 2012, 05:33:49 AM »

if you want a longer bbl order one from Ruger . They made them with 26 inch bbls then cut to suit .

cwlongshot · « **Reply #27 on:** February 20, 2012, 06:28:06 AM »

I have been here too... I ended up with a custom stocked Marlin 880 SQ!

Believe me when I tell you I shot almost every big, known, good accuracy rifle available. I had a "itch" that needed scratching!! I wanted a pretty, walnut stocked heavy barreled 2LR. During my search I shot, Kimber's, Cooper's, Remington's, Mossbergs, Anshutz, Browning's, Winchester's, Ruger's, T/C match barrel carbine's. ( CZ not around yet)
Every time that little Marlin out shot or equaled all of them. I shot them side by side off sand bags on a indoor 100m range. Same ammo lots, same scope, same shooter!
I bought the Marlin 880SQ. It wore a crappy blk syn stock. First I tuned the trigger to just under 2#. I re stocked it with factory AA walnut. (Living close to the factory and having many friends working at the facility had its advantages) i had to open the barrel channel and drill a second hole for the forward mounting stud. Mine was a very early Squirrel as it was designed as a way to use tooling from the not solo pilar but excellent shooting g Marlin 2000 target rifle line. As a matter of fact my barrel is drilled and dovetailed for sites! Because it's barrel was made for the M2000 that wore sites!
That was twenty or so odd years ago. As good as that little Marlin shot. My $129 H&R SS1 17M2 shoots better!!!

Another very accurate rifle although NOT a bolt, but a single shot. T/C's Contender carbine with a 21" bull barrel with a match chamber. I had one and it was wonderfully accurate. One of my favorites for sniping squirrels from tree tips. If I could make out a body part I could hit it! BUT it wasn't a bolt gun.

Ever wonder why a beautiful dark figured wood stock on a smooth as glass bolt gun stirs the soul as no other? Me too!!

My little Marlin is very nice looking and has satisfied my need for a good looking, quality bolt rimfire. The Marlin shot better and left my bank account much happier!!

CW

Drilling Man · « **Reply #28 on:** February 20, 2012, 06:51:36 AM »

Quote from: mannyrock on February 20, 2012, 03:16:56 AM

Dear Guys,

This has turned out to be a good post. I have learned alot.

The Anschutz are fantastic rifles, and older ones can be found at gunshows for around $500. Problem for me is that most of the ones I have seen have magazines that only hold 4 rounds. A huge aggravation for a sporter or plinker.

The CZ, again, is a beautiful rifle, but I have shot Win 70s my entire life, and having a reverse safety would for me be begging for an accident. As I've gotten older, I have found that the best way to avoid an accident is to simply "fail safe" yourself, by not placing yourself in a scenario that could likely give rise to one.

I did alot of research on the Winchester 69A. A beautiful rifle, lots of them around, and there are manyin VG+ to Excellent condition for around the $450 mark. But (and this really made me sick), the safetys are the same type as on a Moisan Nagan, pull a knurled knob and twist. Awk! That ruins it for me.

A prior post mentions that for the Ruger 77/22, a new barrel can be had from GM. What is GM please? I have never heard of them. If they offer barrels in 22 inch, then that might be something to consider.

The Ruger 77/22 is a strange bird. They have been around for a long long time. And yet, it is very rare to see a used one at a gunshow, and those that pop up are in extremely good condition, with asking prices of just $100 or so less than a new one.

This tells me that once people get the 77/22 straightened out, they keep them forever and take extremely good care of them.

Back to the Remington 511, though nice ones can be had in the $250 area, I can see some extra costs for these as well. I would want to have the receiver grooved to hold clamp-on bases, and have that long barrel cut and crowned at 22 inches. So, this would add another $150 or so, which would bring the total cost of the rifle up to around $400 or more. Funny how the math keeps working out on all of this.
Manny

I WAS kinda in the same boat, even though i have many 22's. On top of all that you said, i wanted a "LH" 22, and i wanted it right. (NO azzbackwards safetys for me either) SO, that leaves out many of your choises too.

Anyway, i have LH Rem. 541-s, and they DO shoot, so you must have been thinking of the Rem. 504 is your origional post?

If you want a really well made bolt action 22 that really shoots, get the Anschutz!! I have 2 and they DO shoot very good, and they ARE really well made! You can buy 10 shot mags for them too. Yes they are expensive, but you are getting the BEST production 22 you can buy, and it will out last you, your kids and your gran kids!

After having said that, i will say i just ordered a custom built 22, from NULA custom guns. I drove to WV, meeting Melvin Forbes, maker of the NULA custom rifles, and i was amazed at the quality of work Melvins rifles have in them. They are light, balance perfectly in your hands, and his 22's will shoot 2/10" groups or better at 50 yards.

Melvins 22's are the finest 22 rifles i've ever had in my hands!

DM

mannyrock · « **Reply #29 on:** February 20, 2012, 09:51:09 AM »

Thanks for all of the great advice. All of this talk of re-working great older guns has given me another idea. Let me know what you think.

Apparently, the Winchester 75s were great guns, with walnut stocks and adjustable triggers. Among the best of the best.

The sporter models are extremely expensive, in the $1,000 and up range. But, the target models are quite common and still pretty reasonable. You can get one in really good shape as a shooter for around $450 if you do some looking. Some of them are already grooved on the top of the receiver for installing clamp-on rings. Of course, they come with a really long barrel, and a really heavy, wide, beavertail stock for shooting from a bench.

Why couldn't I just buy one of the target models, cut and crown that long barrel to 22 inches, and then put that stock on a belt sander to reshape the forward part of the stock down to a sporter configeration? Assuming I do a good job with the stock, wouldn't I end up with a really first class shooter, for around $500? Yes, it would be about $100 more than reconfiguring a Remington 511, but would probably be worth it.

Manny