Author Topic: Why are fighting shotguns cylinder bore? (Read 5970 times)

STUMPJMPR · « **on:** February 15, 2012, 02:43:39 PM »

I've been thinking about this lately. Why are fighting shotguns cylinder bore? A cylinder bore shotgun is only effective with buck shot out to about 20 yards maybe a little more if your lucky. Past this patterns get too thin to be reliable. I doubt slugs would be effective past 75 yards without sites. A full choke shotgun can be a man stopper at 50-60 yards with buckshot. A full choke can still throw a slug with some accuracy. So why use a cylinder bore? Is it one of those things that just stuck around after someone hacked a shotgun barrel off to a user friendly length?

fatercat · « **Reply #1 on:** February 15, 2012, 03:57:19 PM »

choke deforms buck shot. they say it causes bad pattern. cyl throws a better pattern, they say. only way to tell is to shoot it on paper. what kind of shotgun and choke have you tried???

tacklebury · « **Reply #2 on:** February 15, 2012, 04:12:21 PM »

Most law enforcement shotguns aren't being used at more than 20 yards. If you need to reach further grab your rifle. Shotguns in LE and Military are shorter barreled cylinder bore, because buckshot doesn't need constriction to group at 10 yards max distance that most shots would be taken in. They also use specialty ammo, like breaching plugs and flares and chokes would limit this use. I have shot 000 buck in my extra full with good groups at 30+ yards, so I doubt it's the worry about how they group. Just my thoughts...

quasne.inc · « **Reply #3 on:** February 15, 2012, 07:00:26 PM »

I had a rossi single shot 12 ga with a full choke that threw buck shot everywhere. It didnt matter the range.

Wyo. Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #4 on:** February 16, 2012, 09:26:21 AM »

In the distant past, I remember reading the Army did some tests and found the cly. bore to be most effective with buckshot...I think the tests were before WW2...I have read about the southern deer hunters using buckshot and found it quite effective up to about 40 yards...BUT they did not use 00 buck..most 3 or 4 as I remember...today 00 might be effective with buffers and such...for my homedefense, I bought # 4 buck...

BUGEYE · « **Reply #5 on:** February 16, 2012, 10:45:55 AM »

my 16ga single barrel shoots slugs and buckshot better since I chopped the barrel.
but now I have a bunch of slugs left over, I'll never shoot another one in that light shotgun.

Swampman · « **Reply #6 on:** February 16, 2012, 11:02:45 AM »

All my testing indicates you'd be lucky to hit anyone with buckshot at 40 yards no matter what choke you are using.

STUMPJMPR · « **Reply #7 on:** February 16, 2012, 11:53:36 AM »

Quote from: Swampman on February 16, 2012, 11:02:45 AM

All my testing indicates you'd be lucky to hit anyone with buckshot at 40 yards no matter what choke you are using.

I've had good luck with buckshot at 40 yards. Just got to find one that shoots out of the gun. Some guns don't shoot it well. I have some federal flight control buckshot that will do 10-12" pattern at 40yards with a cylinder bore.

Swampman · « **Reply #8 on:** February 16, 2012, 12:05:27 PM »

I took a Remington 870 and tried every size and brand of buckshot I could find in every choke size Remington offered and the best pattern I got was 2 pellets in a pie plate. That was with #4 buck and a mod. choke. The American Rifleman (NRA) had similar results.

clum sum · « **Reply #9 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:37:38 PM »

Had a Win model 24 30" barrel F and Mod the full would stick all of the pellets of #1 buck in the door of a pickup at 75'. For Yall that don't know, that's a Redneck target. To get to the next target You have to walk or You could drive 180 degrees around the truck, new door.

keith44 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 21, 2012, 08:18:05 PM »

The military fighting shotgun is not meant to kill. Just as the rifles are also not meant to kill, rather the goal is to incapacitate as many as possible, also there is the intimidation factor of a large bore weapon. As for actual killing with cylinder bore and buck shot, just like anyother fixed choke gun you just have to pattern the gun with various loads and find what works with your gun

Dusty Wheeler · « **Reply #11 on:** February 22, 2012, 07:36:11 AM »

Check out Vang Comp Systems... Shotgun barrels are back bored to provide a near full choke pattern with buckshot which effectively extends the killing range to 75 yards. Slugs will stay on a dinner plate to the same range.

Vangcomp.com

Vang isn't the only one doing this. Straight cylinder bore is definitely old school!

ironglow · « **Reply #12 on:** February 22, 2012, 07:49:45 AM »

Smoothbore shotguns used for slugs are cylinder bore w/rifle sights..deformation can act like a bad crown in a rifle.
As far as shotguns for combat use, I had to ask my grandson...who has used them in Ramadi and Fallujah.
Here's what I understand;

1) Shotguns are a short-range weapon..used inside and in house-to-house, door-to-door combat;
..or as in WW1 as "trench guns".

2) Buckshot is not all that is used in them. (My grandson used a Mossy 500)

3) There is a lock-busting slug the Marines refer to as a "cork" which they shoot locks off with. (door breaching)
there is an attachment which allows the gun to be placed directly against the lock; not always used though..

4) Regular slugs can be used also

5) Then there is a (rare) grenade launching attachment..

4) On some occasions (Vietnam) they used fletchette rounds

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #13 on:** February 22, 2012, 07:51:16 AM »

Some roit guns came with improved cyl. Many with cyl bore. Guard guns at prisons in Va. were 30 inch full choke. This would lead one to believe that the open choke was to create a wider pattern hitting more targets. Also some non lethal shells require a open choke. I have hunted all my life with buck shot. Here there are gunsmiths who do bbl work to increase the distance a shot gun loaded with buck shot will be effective. I found a rem 870 with a 20 inch rifle sighted bbl and screw in chokes with a mod choke worked best. It gave a good pattern ob buck shot out to 25-30 yards depending on plated or non plated shot being used. A 2 3/4 shell is best for SD use. The mod choke also allowed slug use out to over 80 yards. Some of the Smiths here can extend the range to 45-50 yards with speical chokes matched to the inside bbl mesurements and type shot being used. These tube are to tight for close in use and mess up slugs. I have one such bbl , 23 3/4" with briley tubes around .664 or tighter. It would shoot a pattern at 40 yards you could lay a ball cap over if Federal copper plated 000 buck was used. It was to tight so I switched to a more open choke XXF I think it was. Point is today shotguns offer alot more than just a few years ago.

ironglow · « **Reply #14 on:** February 22, 2012, 08:18:23 AM »

...Sorry if I sound argumentative, I don't intend to;
...But I really must take issue with the idea that a fighting shotgun or rifle is not "meant to kill". During my military stint we were trained to fire at "center of mass" with the intent to kill. I always fired expert so I was more specific as to point-of-aim.
However, to say they are not intended to kill is tantamount to saying when we shoot a pheasant, fox, deer or bear..we don't intend to kill it.
I am personal friends or relation to several current combat troops (most spec ops).. to a man, they shoot with intent to kill.
Admittedly, with the Geneva convention rule for FMJ, and in conventional clothing, they don't kill as effectively as SP ammo, but they still shoot with intent to kill.
Yes; a wounded man can be a detriment to his comrades..but a wounded man can still shoot back, and in many cases he has been propped up by his comrades to do just that ! ..And if one of the fanatics we now face survives a wound, they will likely be back in weeks to kill some more.
No doubt, both rifles and shotguns are meant to kill the enemy ..except in very rare cases where our guys may be seeking live bodies for intel.

keith44 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 22, 2012, 05:26:39 PM »

The geneva convention requires full jacketed non-expanding bullets. So when a target is hit, a clean hole is punched through, little colateral damage is inflicted to surrounding tissues. One shot takes three out of the fight, cause it takes two to carry the wounded soldier from the battle field. Ball ammo will kill, but if they were really trying you would see a return of the 30 cals, and they would be shooting thin jacketed hollow points, or soft tipped ammo

keith44 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 22, 2012, 07:19:20 PM »

let me further clarify, that is the politicians tying the soldiers hands by issuing less than ideal equipment for the task at hand. The ammo is not the best they could have, the exception being some sniper teams.

ironglow · « **Reply #17 on:** February 22, 2012, 07:28:28 PM »

Quote from: keith44 on February 22, 2012, 05:26:39 PM

The geneva convention requires full jacketed non-expanding bullets. So when a target is hit, a clean hole is punched through, little colateral damage is inflicted to surrounding tissues. One shot takes three out of the fight, cause it takes two to carry the wounded soldier from the battle field. Ball ammo will kill, but if they were really trying you would see a return of the 30 cals, and they would be shooting thin jacketed hollow points, or soft tipped ammo

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Correct; ....the Geneva convention forbids anything but FMJ ammo...so your suggestion that the military use SP or HP ammo is an exercise in futility. The fact that they are forced to use FMJ in no way indicates that they are not intended to kill. The .223 in FMJ can be quite lethal, not always a "clean hole", since anything less than a right angle hit can cause the bullet to tumble..really messy.
The reduction from .30 cal was not because the military has given up on killing the enemy, but rather for logistics purposes. The M-16 was developed for Vietnam, where our Vietnamese allies were small of stature, women are being assigned battle jobs and the logistics of shipping made it possible for a vehicle or trooper can carry about twice as many rounds in .223 as in .308.
Yes, the old Geneva convention demanded FMJ bullets for their more clean wounding properties, but that is becoming an outmoded position.

keith44 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 22, 2012, 07:40:18 PM »

but go back to the 7.62 NATO and give it an expanding bullet and you have something more consistently lethal.

Yes the FMJ 5.56 can be very lethal, but again change to a soft point...

The idea I was trying to bring forward was that the political decisions and the thinking of those who will never see combat.

Nam was officially over 30 years ago, why stay with the smaller projectile?? Lack of recoil, not just for females, but the vast majority of our soldiers are from cities, and have no prior experience controlling recoil.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #19 on:** February 23, 2012, 12:48:40 AM »

It seems now if a HP bullet is used for accuracy not to create more damage it is OK like a match bullet which is not made to expand. Its a moot point as there are bullets now in use that have a hollow space at the tip but no opening. It also has a steel core that moves forward on impact. Together these features make the bullet become unstable on impact causing alot of damage in the target.

reliquary · « **Reply #20 on:** February 23, 2012, 03:38:12 AM »

I personally carried and used a Model 12 in RVN, on occasion. Those uses were limited to urban areas and short-range bush. It was a commercial version that someone had chopped to 20" and put a Cutts Compensator on. I used the military OO buck that came in 10-round brown boxes and had green hulls IIRC, worked very satisfactorily but I never tested it on paper.

Never did like the M16; not that I couldn't use one.

The original testing for shotgun use in WWI trenches found that cyl/imp cyl worked best with OO buck at shorter ranges. Technically, the lead shot violated the Geneva Convention and Germany raised cain about it but were forced to back down...interesting reading on that if you have the time. Back then we had leaders with balls. My dad was in the trenches for a while and swore by the Model 97.

We still have the 5.56 things because of NATO STANAGS and because we have millions of them, not because they're especially effective.

wwjmbd · « **Reply #21 on:** February 23, 2012, 06:21:07 PM »

Ive patterned buckshot out of a few shotguns I have, full, modified & improved choke in different guns, some shot very dense and some very sparse patterns but it was hit and miss for predicting, some full chokes grouped well where others with full choke threw the pellets all over and the same with modified and improved, the only gun I have that groups buckshot really well is a remington m 1100 mag with fixed full choke, that thing groups well out to 50 yards, im talking sometimes 15 of 15 pellets (3" magnum shells) in a 2' x 2' piece of cardboard. Most of the other shotguns ive tried shot about 5-8 of 15 pellets inside a 2'x2' target.

wwjmbd · « **Reply #22 on:** February 23, 2012, 06:25:22 PM »

I always wondered why fighting shotguns were cylinder bore aswell, I think I would prefer full choke in a combat situation.

Couger · « **Reply #23 on:** February 24, 2012, 05:45:15 PM »

Best advice I've ever read offered is from Gabriel Suarez in his book, "The Tactical Shotgun."

Suarez would agree that #4Buck and #1Buck are the best buckshot sizes for use in the 12gauge.

Also he advocated installing a Polychoke on your tactical shotgun! Which is the point I wanted to make.

With just the flip of your wrist you can instantly adjust your SG to your conditions!

People who say shotties are good only up to 20yds I think did not know what they were doing and gave up way too soon!

ironglow · « **Reply #24 on:** February 25, 2012, 01:12:29 AM »

Although I am not a regular shotgun user..preferring rifles instead...don't underestimate the competent range of a shotgun. Just check out the various coyote hunting videos available. Many are shooting as far as 70 yards..just as this video explains.
Coyote hunters around here who use dogs are taking such shots with the "dead coyote" rounds or using their own special loads and picking them off at surprising ranges, but of course, chokes are required. The military doesn't plan the shotgun for a long range weapon...but in any case, slugs perform best with cylinder bore, something shotgun manufacturers discovered long ago.
Then there is certain specialized equipment which the military uses which require cylinder bore...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ynIzz4qifs

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #25 on:** February 27, 2012, 03:25:39 AM »

Many have little clue what a shotgun will do these days. I would suggest an open choke is to maximise hits in fast close quaters be it bird hunting or felony sheet. Also the use of slugs has just recently became a good choice. The bbls of todays guns are stronger and a slug can be pushed thru. a tighter choke than it could 20 years ago. The slug can be used to take out bad guys ic close to innocent people when buck shot would not be a good choice . It can also be a car stopper etc.
The #4 buck is good close but not when alot of STUFF is in the way. The #1 buck inan open choke may work but I find 000 buck in a well built gun is best. It is the best at long range and a good choke job will insure useable patternd out to some remarkable yardage.

ironglow · « **Reply #26 on:** February 27, 2012, 03:54:36 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on February 27, 2012, 03:25:39 AM

Many have little clue what a shotgun will do these days. I would suggest an open choke is to maximise hits in fast close quarters be it bird hunting or felony sheet. Also the use of slugs has just recently became a good choice. The bbls of todays guns are stronger and a slug can be pushed thru. a tighter choke than it could 20 years ago. The slug can be used to take out bad guys ic close to innocent people when buck shot would not be a good choice . It can also be a car stopper etc.
The #4 buck is good close but not when alot of STUFF is in the way. The #1 buck inan open choke may work but I find 000 buck in a well built gun is best. It is the best at long range and a good choke job will insure useable patternd out to some remarkable yardage.

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Shootall;
You are correct in the area I highlighted above. This thread was concerning "fighting shotguns", obviously the ones the Army & Marines use, not hunting shotguns. The shotgun in this case, is a very short range/door breaching weapon which at squad level, does not operate alone. It will be accompanied by rifles, grenades etc. No need even considering what a full choke will do out to 50 yards, the rifles will handle that job. Oh sure, on rare occasions one may be faced with a longer than expected range, but all in all the military has likely considered it from all angles and all users seem to agree.

See below, a video taken by personnel in my grandson's Marine Spec Ops unit in Iraq..right off at the start you will see a demonstration of breaching/entry typical of how they enrered terrorist "safe houses".. THis is only a demonstration, since the guys do very little filming during an actual entry..for obvious reasons..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhn.wfq_IfmI

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #27 on:** February 27, 2012, 05:21:12 AM »

it would not let me see

. I don't have the link but the military has new shotgun ammo that is for long range now also some for out to 200+ yards and breaching doors and walls from 50+ yards .
think about the sabot rounds from a smoothbore tank bbl then apply it to new sgotgung tech

ironglow · « **Reply #28 on:** February 27, 2012, 12:57:12 PM »

Could be...it would be interesting to know if the tank smoothbores had any choke built in. The tanks I served in had rifled main gun tubes.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #29 on:** February 28, 2012, 01:18:05 AM »

Doubt it , but one of the new shotgun shells has a projectile that extends fins after the sabot falls off . When over the enemy it expoldes . Another will destory a door knocking it open or down at quite a distance and from safe cover.