Author Topic: .45-70 and the Hornady 350FN COL? (Read 2345 times)

Dr.Pepper · « **on:** February 01, 2012, 12:13:02 PM »

Hello,

I am new here and a new owner of a .45-70 Handi. My first .45-70 and my first Handi!
I have limited experience reloading for the .30-06 and want to reload for the Handi as well.

My apologies if this actually belongs in the reloading area, I was just sure that a couple of people here would know exactly what I am talking about.

The nose profile of the Hornady 350 FN is giving me COL problems. I can take one of the bullets and put it in a spent case and shut the action and get 2.500-2.502 (done several times). I know I need to pull back about .02” so that the bullet is not touching the lands when it starts. This gives a COL of 2.48” which is .01” shorter than the SAAMI range of 2.490-2.550”.

Is this small amount going to give me serious and dangerous pressure spikes? Will I still be able to apply enough pressure with the Lee factory crimp die even though the bullet will be seated past the crimp groove?

I called Hornady and asked about this bullet before buying and was assured that it was a great choice for the .45-70, so I bought several (5 boxes). I called again today to try and explain what I am seeing and I was told by a different guy that this bullet is only for the .450 Marlin. What gives?

I want to shoot around 1850-1950 fps so to basically mimic factory 300 hp rounds except with a little tougher/heavier bullet. I have no desire/need to go past this level. I was thinking about using 43-44 grains of IMR 4198. Any thoughts? Red Flags?

Does anyone see a way to safely achieve my goals other than to take the rifle and have it reamed out a little bit?

Thanks for any help that may be given.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** February 01, 2012, 01:13:28 PM »

Welcome Dr P!

That's a common problem with short throated H&R 45-70s, just seat the bullets shy of touching the lands a few thousanths, and work the load up from start data and you'll be fine, you've got lots of wiggle room if you use trapdoor data and work up, the SB2 frame will handle into the Ruger loads, but starting in levergun data or higher with the shorter COL wouldn't be advisable since pressure is unknown at the shorter COL, using start data and working up coupled with chronograph data will get you where you need to be safely.

Tim

MSP Ret · « **Reply #2 on:** February 01, 2012, 01:20:23 PM »

Hello Dr. Pepper, and as Quick has said, welcome aboard. Lots of 45-70 shooters here, myself included. The old timers here have heard this before, but my favorite Handi 45-70 load is the bullet you have loaded ahead of 28.0 grains of 2400. I load the bullet uncrimped to the cannelure and shoot iot out of 3 different Handi's in 45-70 with no problems and with great accuracy....<><....

Darreld Walton · « **Reply #3 on:** February 01, 2012, 01:30:28 PM »

You should be just fine with the load and the COL you mention using. If that particular bullet was specially designed for the 450 Marlin, it's because of the tubular magazine. Not a consideration when you're shooting a single shot.
The Hornady manual lists max COL of 2.545 with that bullet, and was developed in an 1895 Marlin, and probably to ensure that it'd feed through that action. I wouldn't worry one whit about the length you want to use, (in a .45-70 Handi) though I think if it were me, I'd start at 2.5 and go from there.

tacklebury · « **Reply #4 on:** February 01, 2012, 04:12:23 PM »

Honestly when I load for my firearms, unless I have several with different needs, I don't worry much about COL. I use it as a reference point and if I'm in some, I drop start point slightly, if I'm out some, I usually stay the same, except with H110 loads in pistols. When I start loading a new bullet, I typically seat the bullet until it is just touching the rifling, measure the COL, subtract .002 and call that my starting COL. As long as you aren't eating the lands, it doesn't cause any issues. The 350 FP ends up loading in my Buffalo Classic just past the cannilure, so I use my Lee FCD die to kiss it and keep good tension. Don't over crank the FCD or it can deform the bullet. This thing hits like a hammer over my 48 gr. Reloader7 and I can shoot them from a bench and cloverleaf on a calm day.

bikerbeans · « **Reply #5 on:** February 02, 2012, 02:30:19 AM »

I seat the 350 grain Hornday FP @ 3.70", no wait my BC is a 45-120.

BB

Dr.Pepper · « **Reply #6 on:** February 02, 2012, 04:16:19 AM »

Thanks for the welcome and great replies. I appreciate it

. I guess I will just subtract .002" from the length given when I shut the action on the loose bullet not .02" like I had originally typed and start in the trapdoor area.
My Sierra and Nosler books are useless here so I am going by Hodgdon's web info. Sadly, they don't list a 350 jacketed bullet in the trapdoor area. Using the start information for jacketed bullets in lever data (IMR 4198) using 53.7 for 300's and 47 for 350's against the given 45 gr for 300's in the trapdoor data indicates that 39 gr would be a good starting place for this powder and a jacketed bullet of this weight. I will increase .5 grains at a time until I get around 47 grains where I will stop even if there are no pressure signs (this is based on this being the start load given by Hodgdon for a lever and being past my target velocity) . I will have to guess at velocity since I don't have a chronograph yet.
Thanks!

BBF · « **Reply #7 on:** February 02, 2012, 10:04:46 AM »

Dr. P
The reason for not listing the 350 gr FN or RN and the Speer FN in Trapdoor loads is the minimum MV required by those bullets for proper expansion. The Trapdoor loads fall short of that.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** February 02, 2012, 10:19:43 AM »

Hornady lists the MV for the bullet in question here, Hornady 350gr FP, as 1800-2900fps, same as their 350gr RN.

Just for the heck of it, I ran your 2.490" 47gr IMR4198 350gr FP load thru QuickLoad software, predicted velocity is 2052fps @ 41157psi.

Tim

BBF · « **Reply #9 on:** February 02, 2012, 10:43:09 AM »

I would not want to shoot that load very often.

It is certainly way above Trapdoor level.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #10 on:** February 02, 2012, 10:51:19 AM »

That's just a prediction based on the default case capacity, for comparison, Hodgdon lists the same load under the 350gr RN with a 2.540" COL as 2032fps @ 32500cup from a 24" barrel.

Tim

Dr.Pepper · « **Reply #11 on:** February 02, 2012, 11:43:08 AM »

Quickdtoo, thanks for running that calculation for me. I have a 22" barrel.
That 47 grain max I mentioned still seems a little hot (both velocity and pressure) for what I had in mind. I guess I will impose a max. charge of 45 grains on myself with this bullet at this length. My theoretical load range will be from 39-45.
I don't want to punish myself or the equipment, only actually get what Big Name factory rounds are supposed to get, but with a better bullet.
I do not know if it is true or not because I never shot one (yet) but hours of crawling the internet showed me several reports of where people were claiming that the FN bullet opened up at much lower speeds than the roundnose even if they are cited at the same velocity range by Hornady. I guess I will learn myself soon enough.
You guys are making me glad I took the time to join. Seems like there is tons of good stuff to be learned here and on G.B. in general.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** February 02, 2012, 01:10:22 PM »

FWIW, the Hornady 8th data for those bullets have velocity ranges of:

M1895/levergun 45-70 1400-1900fps

Ruger #1 45-70 1700-2200fps

450 Marlin 1600-2000fps

They don't list them at all for the trap door level.

Tim

Dr.Pepper · « **Reply #13 on:** February 03, 2012, 03:16:09 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on February 02, 2012, 01:10:22 PM

FWIW, the Hornady 8th data for those bullets have velocity ranges of:

M1895/levergun 45-70 1400-1900fps

Ruger #1 45-70 1700-2200fps

450 Marlin 1600-2000fps

They don't list them at all for the trap door level.

Tim

Wonderful.. assuming I do not hit pressure signs when I start working up from Trapdoor zone, I will end up loading something in the low lever area with a probable velocity around 1850 or so. It would seem that the bullet is supposed to open somewhat at this speed based on what you have shared with me.

Have a great day everyone

tacklebury · « **Reply #14 on:** February 03, 2012, 11:18:26 AM »

You know, if you are wanting a jacketed bullet for trap door levels, the 300 gr. HP Hornady would be a good bet. At higher velocities these are too explosive, but for light loads, might be just the ticket.

BBF · « **Reply #15 on:** February 04, 2012, 07:17:58 AM »

Quote from: tacklebury on February 03, 2012, 11:18:26 AM

You know, if you are wanting a jacketed bullet for trap door levels, the 300 gr. HP Hornady would be a good bet. At higher velocities these are too explosive, but for light loads, might be just the ticket.

If they are structurally similar with the 300 gr. Rems I would recommend a MV way below factory levels. I guess around 1400 fps should be good.

tacklebury · « **Reply #16 on:** February 04, 2012, 12:19:36 PM »

Correct. He's looking for a trap door level loading bullet that'll expand down there...

Dr.Pepper · « **Reply #17 on:** February 06, 2012, 05:05:14 AM »

Close. I am actually wanting something in the very high trapdoor, low lever category. Sort of in between the two zones but closer to lever.
I have found out myself that the Rem/Winchester 300 Hp are soft even at factory speeds . I had factory bullets shedding the core and losing the jackets all over the place in a rock free dirt bank when sighting my gun in for the 1st time. I have read many times that the 300's are too destructive and not very dependable (if bone is hit) when pushed over 2000 fps (this statement is supported by the slower factory loadings not being very tough). I am not toting a .45-70 just to worry about bone like with a smaller gun. This explains why I am wanting to load a little heavier/tougher bullet in the first place. I want to keep close to factory speeds just to flatten the trajectory a hair, which also explains why I do not want to simply slow the 300's down. The 300's will be range fodder/big bore varmint for me and the 350's around 1850-1900 will be used for big game.
Most of this trapdoor talk is resulting from the sound advice to start easy and work my way up since I am forced into using a shorter COL than normal.
I rolled them out this weekend, 39-45 grains all in .5 grain additions. Hopefully, this coming weekend I will be able to touch them off one at a time and see where I can make it before I get pressure signs (or the recoil makes me change my goals). Once I have determined where I can safely go, then I will start tinkering for groups.

Quote from: tacklebury on February 04, 2012, 12:19:36 PM

Correct. He's looking for a trap door level loading bullet that'll expand down there...

tacklebury · « **Reply #18 on:** February 06, 2012, 04:29:57 PM »

Cool, sounds like a plan then.

Good luck.

BBF · « **Reply #19 on:** February 07, 2012, 06:57:25 AM »

Have you given the 405 Rem or 400 gr Speer a thought. They will expand at low MV's, granted their trajectory is rainbow similar

Dr.Pepper · « **Reply #20 on:** February 08, 2012, 02:46:47 AM »

BBF,
Those are next on the list if these 350's do not work out, especially the Speer since from what I have read it is the softer of the two. I am worried I will have the same trouble with the FN profile and the COL but I will probably have to order a box and see.

I have noticed over and over that the guys that seem to have a lot of experience with the .45-70 seem to give up on trying to flatten the trajectory and are satisfied with 400's and up in the 1400-1700 fps category. Lower shooter stress and almost fool proof bullet performance even if bone is hit, less meat damage, etc. I am just a newbie but I know that it is foolish to ignore those with real life experience. So I guess I will in fact order some. Another reason I will start with a box of Speers is that Rem. 405 seem so popular that they are hard to get. It seems like they are on backorder everywhere I go and I am not very patient when I get excited about a specific goal (getting new gun ironed out).

My .45-70 dies are the Lee Pacesetter set (plus factory crimp die). They have a notice on the info. card saying that Speer recommends that some of their bullets not be used with Lee stuff. What is this about?

BBF · « **Reply #21 on:** February 08, 2012, 04:08:21 AM »

On occasion equipment Mfg get into a bit of a hissy fit with each other. One case I remember was with Federal primers and LEE. One of them( I don't recall which one) warned using their products in or with the other because of a possibility of setting off the primer.

HAR !! You got to be a Moron to hammer a primer that hard with a priming tool. In the case of the LEE it would break the tool before setting off the primer. Then there was a packaging issue between UPS and Federal on their primers again. I believe something went BOOM in UPS

Speer does not like the LEE Factory crimp which according to LEE can be used to actually crimp a bullet which does not have a cannelure. I have used a number of "smooth" Speer bullets and never had a problem or need to create my own cannelure with them.

I do use a flaring tool on all of my bullets to ease the loading process and adjust my seating Die or LEE crimp Die then remove the flare and snug up the case mouth to the bullet if their is no cannelure. Ammo for Single shot rifles have no need or use for crimping.

Structural difference between Rem 405 and Speer 400 are probably very slight. Remington's have a better Ballistic Coefficient .281 vs .214

A quick look at ballistic tables indicates that at 1400 fps MV and a Zero of 100 yards the Speer bullet is approx. 1.5 " lower then the Remington. Not a big deal unless you shoot rats.

LedLobber · « **Reply #22 on:** February 08, 2012, 01:07:58 PM »

My COL with this bullet comes out 2.543, and that is seated about 0.002-0.003 off the lands. 59.0 Grains of H335 sure made an ACCURATE round out of my Handi with this Bullet!

LedLobber · « **Reply #23 on:** February 08, 2012, 01:08:46 PM »

My COL with this bullet comes out 2.543, and that is seated about 0.002-0.003 off the lands. 59.0 Grains of H335 sure made an ACCURATE round out of my Handi with this Bullet!

BBF · « **Reply #24 on:** February 10, 2012, 05:30:21 AM »

I bet that load hammers both ways.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #25 on:** February 10, 2012, 05:58:07 AM »

FWIW, if you are resizing the cases the die is undersizing the neck and the expander ball is opening it back up to have the proper neck tension on the jacketed bullet (and often too tight for optimum cast bullet loads) with no need of any crimp. The crimp is needed for magazine rifles. After you seat the bullet, if you used any flare, just roll that flare back around the bullet, as previously mentioned. Then try to pull the bullet out; bet you cant. If you cant pull it out without tools then it isnt going to fall out in a hunting context, or in the chamber when you unload an unfired cartridge.
In my experience all this fixation on COL to within a gnats breath of the origin of rifling, expecially for hunting rifles, is a make-work project; same with the 1/2gr. increments in loading bulky powders. I make 'em fit and extract cleanly and go by 2gr. increments to sort out the neighborhood of what works; once Im in it I can fine tune. It is quick and efficient.
As always, YMMV and if you have a fav method, go for it

.

Dr.Pepper · « **Reply #26 on:** February 20, 2012, 08:35:24 AM »

Sorry to bump this thread but I like to post conclusions so to help those who do research later. When I was reading up on this, I found several thoughts/threads that would have been very helpful to me but sort of trailed off and I wondered what happened.
This Saturday the weather was pretty and I shot my reloads. Long story short, at 45 grains of IMR 4198 I got zero pressure signs, nothing on the primer and the extractor always started the case coming back out and I could lift the rest of the way out with a fingernail. Yes, I did run them a bit shorter than the data calls for which is why I was worried and asking all these questions in the first place.
Observations:
The 4198 burns MUCH cleaner and more completely than 3031 in my gun.
This recipe places the 350 HornadyFN at the same point of impact (at 80-85 yards)as another recipie I was using with Hornady 300 HP using Sierra data that is supposed to yield 2000fps (also using IMR4198).
The thoughts that this 350grain bullet is too tough for the .45-70 is wrong. Hitting a steep bank at 90 yards typically gave very nice mushrooming, so much that in my digging, I never found one that had not separated (and these do have the interlock band)
Recoil was suprisingly pleasant compared to the horror stories I seem to have read. But then again I was wearing a real coat and using a limbsaver and I am not silly enough to take it off next time.

LedLobber · « **Reply #27 on:** February 20, 2012, 11:36:00 AM »

Very Cool! Thanks for the Update Dr. Pepper.

revbc · « **Reply #28 on:** February 20, 2012, 11:55:37 AM »

This is my hunting load for my ultra (24") barrel. 39grs of imr4198 with a 350 speer FN.

Pretty mild load, around 1700.

Bobby

goofyoldfart · « **Reply #29 on:** February 20, 2012, 07:04:17 PM »

But then again I was wearing a real coat and using a limbsaver and I am not silly enough to take it off next time.

you betchum' , Dr.Pepper. very smart. I'm of the same mind due to old age and the " 'situs brothers". I do answer to wuss and puss.