Author Topic: Opinions needed for a new rifle caliber (Read 1771 times)

demented · « **on:** December 15, 2011, 08:40:37 PM »

I WAS thinking of going with a .308 but now I'm thinking a .307 rimmed could be the way for me to go. I've had bad luck with rimless cartridges in Handi-rifles, my 30-30 and friends 45-70 are both fine shooting rifles. I wonder if its the rim that helps these shoot so well? Either will do under 2" at 100 yards on a bad day, the last Handi's I had in .243 and .308 would never do under three inches at their best. What you think? BTW, I know nothing of the .307-is it simply a rimmed .308? Can .308 reloading dies be used? THANKS!!

cwlongshot · « **Reply #1 on:** December 15, 2011, 11:32:52 PM »

Yes, the 307 is simply a rimmed 308. It is loaded a bit lower pressures and its case has a bit less capacity.

Yes 308 dies can be used to re-load 307 Winchester. Most current dies will say 307/308 dies.

I agree rims are better in a SS like our Handis. I feel its two fold. First the rim itself makes for easier and more efficient extraction. Second its a lower pressure round. This is especially true with your 30-30 and 45-70s. Don't misunderstand me, the handi platform is plenty strong to be safe with 60K level cartridges. Its my feeling that the platform works better at 40-50 K.

Larry turned a rim into my Survivor 308 barrel and modified the extractor giving me the first 307/308 barrel we know about here on GBO. Its a great shooter and I love it! I haven't crono'd the load, (Should be 2550fps) but a under max charge of H335 and a Speer 165G SP shoots into one hole at 50 yards.. I have shot it at 100 but dont remember the results, I know it was under 2".

I have a 243 Varmint in a Handi that's good for an inch at 100 with my pet loading of IMR4350 and a 100G Hornady. There are four of these rifles owned by the guys I hunt with and all shoot just as well. So I am not saying semi rimmed cartridges wont shoot. I simply prefer the rimmed and by and large there are less problems with them.

Good luck and Merry Christmas,
CW

cjrjck · « **Reply #2 on:** December 16, 2011, 10:29:17 AM »

I am not sure the rimmed cases are necessarily more accurate. They should prove more reliable for extraction in the Handi. I do believe for that reason alone H&R should chamber the 225 Winchester, 7-30 Waters, 307 Winchester, and 356 Winchester along with their current rimmed lineup. I would really like a 7-30 Waters and feel that it fits the Handi rifle well just like the 30-30, 35 Remington (rimless), and 45/70 do.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #3 on:** December 16, 2011, 12:29:51 PM »

Quote from: cjrjck on December 16, 2011, 10:29:17 AM

I am not sure the rimmed cases are necessarily more accurate. They should prove more reliable for extraction in the Handi. I do believe for that reason alone H&R should chamber the 225 Winchester, 7-30 Waters, 307 Winchester, and 356 Winchester along with their current rimmed lineup. I would really like a 7-30 Waters and feel that it fits the Handi rifle well just like the 30-30, 35 Remington (rimless), and 45/70 do.

I COMPLETELY agree!!! Accuarcy from the rim alone no, but proper headspace is accuracy and the rim offeres better more consistant headspace in a SS like our handis.. (Of coarse, BOTH require proper reloading pracrices...)

The 7-30 Waters would be a WELCOME ADDITION!! Are you listening Illion, Brian??

dave29 · « **Reply #4 on:** December 16, 2011, 12:35:05 PM »

Here's another vote for the 7-30. That would be awesome!!!

I have been wanting a 7-30 for so long, I'm about to order a new Contender.

Swampman · « **Reply #5 on:** December 16, 2011, 12:51:59 PM »

The rimmed cartridges are much better IMO. 30-40 Krag is the best of the rimmed .30s

gendoc · « **Reply #6 on:** December 16, 2011, 01:19:00 PM »

when they are developed and tested correctly, a rimless cartridge will perform just as good asa rimmed one. i do perfer tha 45/70 but , never hada need fora 30-30 cuz of tha "39"
in handi's of course. we got many 30's in other kind shooters but they never get any
use....

Dinny · « **Reply #7 on:** December 16, 2011, 03:08:23 PM »

I only own barrels with rimmed cartridges.

I would add a 7-30 Waters barrel faster than Spanky can say Hoorah! if Ilion ever made them.

Thanks, Dinny

keith44 · « **Reply #8 on:** December 16, 2011, 05:11:34 PM »

In a single-shot rifle I only look for and choose to shoot rimmed cartridges, same applies to leverguns for me. My limited experience with rimless cartridges has shown that certain action types are better suited to cartridges that use a rim to head space off of, and other action types favor a shoulder headspaced cartridged

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #9 on:** December 17, 2011, 12:48:19 AM »

+1 for me on rimmed cases for the Handi. I have 6 barrels and the only one that is not rimmed is the 223 Ultra that I bought to start with. Have thought seriously of turning it into a 225. I have 357 Max, 44 Mag, 22K Hornet, 444 Marlin and 30-30...all rimmed.

Good Luck and Good Shooting

surehuntsalot · « **Reply #10 on:** December 17, 2011, 01:39:51 PM »

call me crazy,but what would be a good caliber/barrel that would work to be re chambered for a303 British round???

cwlongshot · « **Reply #11 on:** December 17, 2011, 01:43:32 PM »

Quote from: surehuntsalot on December 17, 2011, 01:39:51 PM

call me crazy,but what would be a good caliber/barrel that would work to be re chambered for a303 British round???

While the 303 is a excellent caliber, but if chambered in a 30-30 it would have a bastard bore as the 303 is a 310/311 bore not the 308 of the 30-30.

English measure the bore differently.

CW

silver surfer · « **Reply #12 on:** December 17, 2011, 04:46:51 PM »

I'm not sure what the 7.62 X 39 Russian bore was in the Handi, but the .311 caliber is correct for the conversion. I would absolutely love to have a Handi in .303 British with a 25" barrel, iron sights, and an extractor. This caliber is a classic Rimmed Cartridge with tremendous history all over the world. (Not to sound blasphemous, but just as much history as the 30-30 in smokeless form.)
I have a 1950 #4 Mk1 Canadian LongBranch that is unbelievably reliable. I have hunted with it every year since my wife bought it for me. The combinations of velocity, barrel length, powder versatility, projectile diameter, and low recoil make this a very economical and efficient cartridge. If you hand load, this cartridge will meet and in most cases surpass (in performance) the venerable 30-06. Using a 60k Handi frame the hysteria of the "weaker" Enfield action is debunked as well. This is a great idea for a Handi, Surehuntsalot either we are both stark raving mad, or your not crazy at all.

Ol BW · « **Reply #13 on:** December 17, 2011, 04:56:14 PM »

I have never had any experience with a rimmed cartridge in the Handi. My 30'06 and 7.62x39 shoot great with no problems. So how bout a 221 Fireball?

+ 1 on the 7-30 Waters. That would be an excellent addition!

cwlongshot · « **Reply #14 on:** December 18, 2011, 12:22:08 AM »

Quote from: silver surfer on December 17, 2011, 04:46:51 PM

I'm not sure what the 7.62 X 39 Russian bore was in the Handi, but the .311 caliber is correct for the conversion. I would absolutely love to have a Handi in .303 British with a 25" barrel, iron sights, and an extractor. This caliber is a classic Rimmed Cartridge with tremendous history all over the world. (Not to sound blasphemous, but just as much history as the 30-30 in smokeless form.)
I have a 1950 #4 Mk1 Canadian LongBranch that is unbelievably reliable. I have hunted with it every year since my wife bought it for me. The combinations of velocity, barrel length, powder versatility, projectile diameter, and low recoil make this a very economical and efficient cartridge. If you hand load, this cartridge will meet and in most cases surpass (in performance) the venerable 30-06. Using a 60k Handi frame the hysteria of the "weaker" Enfield action is debunked as well. This is a great idea for a Handi, Surehuntsalot either we are both stark raving mad, or your not crazy at all.

The 303 Brit Is a fine caliber with allot of history behind it and would make a fine Handi caliber re-chambered form a x39 case. (I think I have read of a few) Its a plenty big case, so I would think it will clean out the 39 chamber easy enough. Likely best done on a lathe for the amount of material that would need removed.

I say DO IT!!!

CW

jeepmann1948 · « **Reply #15 on:** December 18, 2011, 01:08:12 AM »

My new project is to build a line of rimmed cartridges for the Handis. They will all be based on the 307/356 Win. All I am going to do is make the rim cuts on factory chambers, keeping the head space to a min. I am going to collect before and after data to either debunk or prove the accuracy .
After the reports are finished I will post the data and let everyone see how it comes out.
The initial test will be a 243 rimmed working up to a 356 / 358 rimmed. Some of the conversions are going to involve stubbing because Handi does not make a 25, 6.5 or 338 cal 308 length.
Anybody got a bushel basket full of 307 & 356 brass they aren't using?

Happy Trails
George

cwlongshot · « **Reply #16 on:** December 18, 2011, 01:30:24 AM »

Quote from: jeepmann1948 on December 18, 2011, 01:08:12 AM

My new project is to build a line of rimmed cartridges for the Handis. They will all be based on the 307/356 Win. All I am going to do is make the rim cuts on factory chambers, keeping the head space to a min. I am going to collect before and after data to either debunk or prove the accuracy .
After the reports are finished I will post the data and let everyone see how it comes out.
The initial test will be a 243 rimmed working up to a 356 / 358 rimmed. Some of the conversions are going to involve stubbing because Handi does not make a 25, 6.5 or 338 cal 308 length.
Anybody got a bushel basket full of 307 & 356 brass they aren't using?
Happy Trails
George

George,
Sounds like a fun project!!

I to am on the fence about going for a 356 Win. Handi... I LOVED my first 358. With all the posts and recient talk have pushed me over the edge. I was even about to order a 35 Rem for rechambering last week, when I read a post about a fellow with two Maxi's...
I said wait a minute... I HAVE TWO MAXIS!!

Now I love the Maxi, I enjoy the flexability of two, but really only NEED one..

. But Its a good loaner, to get others to see just how great this little 35 is! My buddies kid used it this year on his first buck. A nice 8PTr! Bigger than any I have shot I will add!!! A 180 XTP with 1680 powder did him in one shot!

Then I also love the idea of the Ackley 30-40 IMP... But I have a 307Win so altho its very appealing, I think I'll stay with my 307. I am a far bigger 35 fan anyhow!

I Still haven't completely 100% committed, either way, its gonna have to wait till mid winter. now between now and then, should a 35 Rem handi come allong, that would sinch it for me and I would have a 356WIN GUARANTEED!!

My own 243 is a real shooter and I have not had a single problem. BUT If I did, I would have a rim turned into it and make my own 243R (242??) using std 243 dies and 307/356 Brass. I think its a EXCELLENT idea!!

CW

BAGTIC · « **Reply #17 on:** December 22, 2011, 05:31:50 PM »

I have .307 and .356 caliber M94 Big Bores. The case capacities are the same as for my .308 and .358 guns. The usable case capacity is a little less because of the shorter COL. In a singleshot it should be possible to load the bullets out to at least equal .308 and .358 COL.

Dinny · « **Reply #18 on:** December 24, 2011, 05:22:05 PM »

George,
Does your project plans include cutting a rim counterbore onto a 7mm-08 barrel? If so, I will be watching closely...

Thanks, Dinny

jeepmann1948 · « **Reply #19 on:** December 24, 2011, 11:48:44 PM »

Dinny,
Yes I am going to do a 7-08, along with a 308 and 243 rimmed. Am going to shoot each one before and after I make the rim cuts to see if it makes any change in accuracy.Another on the bucket list is a 338-08 Rimmed, but I have to build a stub barrel for it .And then the 25-08 Rimmed and then...........

Dinny · « **Reply #20 on:** December 25, 2011, 05:54:28 AM »

So can we call these cartridges the JM series? 6mm-07JM, 6.5mm-07JM, 7mm-07JM...

Thanks, Dinny

revbc · « **Reply #21 on:** December 25, 2011, 06:33:17 AM »

H&R 7-30 waters Stainless Ultra rifle with your choice of laminated thumbhole or straight stock. Would buy one in a heartbeat!

cwlongshot · « **Reply #22 on:** December 25, 2011, 07:57:55 AM »

Quote from: revbc on December 25, 2011, 06:33:17 AM

H&R 7-30 waters Stainless Ultra rifle with your choice of laminated thumbhole or straight stock. Would buy one in a heartbeat!

I completely agree....
BUT a 7/08 is available now and cutting a rim and necking a 307 to 7mm with a 7/08 die would beat a 7x30 everyday ending in "Y"!

Did I mention its a s simple as a rim cut and a extractor mod and you would have a new Handi in a 7mm RIMMED wildcat?!?!?!

Let me see here. Some positives...
NO fancy expensive dies.
Brass readily available
NO big gunsmithing costs
BIG performance is a Handi friendly case.

The negatives...
..
...
....
Oh I DON'T HAVE ONE!!!

GREAT thinking guys!!! ANOTHER potentially great Handi caliber!!!!

CW

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #23 on:** December 25, 2011, 01:39:17 PM »

The 7-30W is a dandy cartridge, had Wayne York do one on a 223 barrel for me a few years back, before the 7mm-08 was issued. Lets me save my flat nosed 7mm's for my Winchester and use pointed in my Handi and Contender Carbine. DP

Deerhunter#1 · « **Reply #24 on:** December 25, 2011, 02:58:07 PM »

Im am in on the 7-30 also if we get lucky. The ballistics are perfect for my hunting needs.

ironglow · « **Reply #25 on:** December 25, 2011, 03:08:51 PM »

How about the old 30/30 Akley Improved ? http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=30/30%20Ackley&Weight=150&type=rifle&Order=Powder&Source=

BAGTIC · « **Reply #26 on:** December 25, 2011, 05:00:52 PM »

Quote from: keith44 on December 16, 2011, 05:11:34 PM

In a single-shot rifle I only look for and choose to shoot rimmed cartridges, same applies to leverguns for me. My limited experience with rimless cartridges has shown that certain action types are better suited to cartridges that use a rim to head space off of, and other action types favor a shoulder headspaced cartridged

I believe the reason is because bolt actions have a camming force that can squeeze a maximum dimensioned bottleneck case into a close fitting chamber. Break action rifles can not do that and falling blocks only slightly so. The same applies to extraction which is one reason rimmed cases tend to be loaded to slightly pressures. A crush fit will always be superior because the reloader can adjust case elngth to the chamber. With a riimed case the thickness of the rim determines the fit and few loaders can or want to modify the rim thickness of every single rim to fit their chambers.

keith44 · « **Reply #27 on:** December 25, 2011, 05:14:46 PM »

Quote from: BAGTIC on December 25, 2011, 05:00:52 PM

Quote from: keith44 on December 16, 2011, 05:11:34 PM
In a single-shot rifle I only look for and choose to shoot rimmed cartridges, same applies to leverguns for me. My limited experience with rimless cartridges has shown that certain action types are better suited to cartridges that use a rim to head space off of, and other action types favor a shoulder headspaced cartridged
I believe the reason is because bolt actions have a camming force that can squeeze a maximum dimensioned bottleneck case into a close fitting chamber. Break action rifles can not do that and falling blocks only slightly so. The same applies to extraction which is one reason rimmed cases tend to be loaded to slightly pressures.

Give that man a cigar!! he has guessed correctly

Both the camming of the cartridge, as well as the extraction. I also just prefer the sound of a lower pressure cartridge. A more throaty boom instead of a sharp crack from a falling block, or break action, but that is merely a preference not a requirement of the action types. Add to that the look of a fat rim and large diameter slow moving heavy slug and everyone who looks at is just has to say "What is THAT?" or some version there of.

kennyd · « **Reply #28 on:** December 27, 2011, 04:46:54 PM »

OK, if you cut the recess for the .307 can you still shoot .308? The question woulld be head support, then whether the extractor would catch the groove. I ask this because you can find .308 easily, I don't remember the last time I saw .307 (or .356). I do handload, so part of this question is moot.

While we are at it, how about the 338 Federal or 338 Marlin?

petemi · « **Reply #29 on:** December 28, 2011, 03:25:20 PM »

Quote from: cwlongshot on December 25, 2011, 07:57:55 AM

Quote from: revbc on December 25, 2011, 06:33:17 AM
H&R 7-30 waters Stainless Ultra rifle with your choice of laminated thumbhole or straight stock. Would buy one in a heartbeat!

I completely agree....
BUT a 7/08 is available now and cutting a rim and necking a 307 to 7mm with a 7/08 die would beat a 7x30 everyday ending in "Y"! Did I mention its a s simple as a rim cut and a extractor mod and you would have a new Handi in a 7mm RIMMED wildcat?!?!?!

Let me see here. Some positives...
NO fancy expensive dies.
Brass readily available
NO big gunsmithing costs
BIG performance is a Handi friendly case.

The negatives...
..
...
....
Oh I DON'T HAVE ONE!!!

GREAT thinking guys!!! ANOTHER potentially great Handi caliber!!!!

CW

Yeah Sure Brian........My .356 isn't even finished and here ya go dumping this one on me.

Geeze!!!! I'd better call Dr. Tim and make an appointment. Why am I shaking??

Pete