43 Spanish plinking

[jlwilliams]

  So a Remington #1 came into my hands last year.  I just looked it over and found it's in pretty good shape.  Better than I'd thought from my first once over.  It needs a couple of screws and a sight and a good cleaning but it's not just a parts gun.  It's going to be a shooter.  Today I took a chamber casting, and the verdict is.....43 Spanish (common 11.15x58r)
 
  So....now what?  I don't have any BP cartridge guns except this.  I have a couple of 45-70s, but I use smokeless in them because they are modern guns.
 
  I know I can get dies and a mold.  Should I get a mold for this round specifically?  Or can I paper patch 44 mag bullets?  I'd like to put together a light load (no need to punish the old gun, I just want to be able to shoot it now and again) so the 240 to 300 grain 44 magnum projos should make a good weight. 
 
  How about the firing pin?  Should I bush the breach and use a smaller firing pin?  Or should I just keep it as is? 
 
  How about Pyrodex?  Or Trailboss smokeless?  I don't use any real BP right now.  I kind of like the idea of using a powder that will remain stable for a long time and be less corrosive.  Is that reasonable thinking?  Or is real BP better?  Why?

[John Boy]

Order the Lyman 439186, cast it 1:10 with a .439 base and weight of 377gr

Firing pin: Order a new one from Womack ... http://www.rollingblockparts.com/

 

How about Pyrodex?  Or Trailboss smokeless?  I don't use any real BP right now.  I kind of like the idea of using a powder that will remain stable for a long time and be less corrosive.  Is that reasonable thinking?

No.  Black powder is not corrosive - Pyrodex is.  And your presumption about stability is wrong also.  Pyrodex is not a stable powder over a long period.  BP will last for 100 years

Or is real BP better?  Why?

You bought a black powder rifle, correct?  If you want to shoot Trail Boss or Pyrodex, call Hodgdon and ask them for the the loading data

[argie1891]

i also have an argentine remington rolling block in 43 spanish.. the first thing i would do if i were you is to loacte a copy of SHOOTING THE 43 SPANISH ROLLING BLOCK  it is by Croft Barker and published by Cistern Publishing Company. it is a paper back and i have seen them on e-bay and also a few years ago at barns and nobel..
i havent shot my rifle a whole lot been busy with other projects like a post in this forum recently on the 11 mauser.. you can use the lyman bullet i have one and could send you some samples if you want to pay the postage. the above book dosent have a lot of load data but enough to get you started.. it list an accuracy load of the lyman 439186and 28 gr of 5744 with a dacron wad. i have sized some .446 bullets down to .439 and it will also work. there are a couple loads using 452 handgun bullets sized to .439. contact buffalo arms for brass a great company to deal with. you can feel free to send me a private message if you need anything else    one mor thing you dont need to bush the fireing pin unless the rifle has been altered they were made to shoot black powder and low pressure smokless will also work.
argie1891

[argie1891]

i found the book on spanish 43 rolling block rifles 25 bucks plus 3.50 shipping.
CISTERN PUBLISHING COMPANY

 

[font='times new roman', times, serif]14010 North State HWY 95
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[font='times new roman', times, serif]Flatonia, Texas  7894
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[font='times new roman', times, serif]Tel:(361) 865-0030 Fax: (361)865-0031
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[streak]

Yeah argie!
Good advice on getting Croft`s book on the 43 Spanish. I had the privilege to meet with Croft last September. I was in San Antonio for a convention and drove out to Cistern, Texas and met with Croft for several hours! He is a wealth of information on all kinds of rolling blocks, falling blocks, bolt , muzzleloaders. Also has great working knowledge of restoration of old rifles. I have all of his books and they are well written and easy reads.

[jlwilliams]

Great replies.  Thank you all.
 
 I'll talk to Santa about getting the book under the tree.  That sounds like the right place to start.
 
  Looks like I'll be buying some black powder.

[John Boy]

Gentlemen, this is a black powder forum and this is the only loading data needed:
Lyman 439186 - 75gr FFFg - 1340fps 

I was very lucky with the Argentine Modelo that I bought.  When Argentine decided to us 7mm rifles, they sent all their 43 Spanish ones back to Remington who in turn completely refurbished some and sold the rest off to Bannerman.  My friend's father worked for Remington and brought two 99% rifles home for his sons.  I bought mine from one of the sons - it's still 99% 

[argie1891]

posted my moderator
Gentlemen, this is a black powder forum and this is the only loading data needed:
Lyman 439186 - 75gr FFFg - 1340fps 

please humbly excuse me for adding data on that other kind of powder. as they say no one is more pure than one who has been prueified.  argie189

[Nobade]

I recently found a nice Argentine carbine at a gun show. Of course had to shoot it some, so ordered 20 cases from Jamison on the last day they were open. I fireformed them with shotgun powder and cream 'o' wheat, and found they would take a .443" bullet after firing. So I made a .443" push through sizer, and sized down some Lyman #446110 Mauser bullets. Dip lubed them, and load over 77 gr. KIK FFg settled with a drop tube. I use this charge because it allows the bullets to just touch the rifling. They shoot great, around 2.5 - 3 MOA which ain't bad for the little carbine with its crude sights. After firing I decap and clean the cases, recap and they're ready to go again. No reloading dies needed, and cases should last a long time. Great fun!

[Swampman]

Black Powder is highly corrosive.  Pyrodex is somewhat corrosive.  I'd love to have a .43 Spanish rolling block.

[Ranch13]

Black Powder is highly corrosive.  Pyrodex is somewhat corrosive. .

Your source for that bit of wisdom comes from where?

[sidewinder319]

I have a .43 Egyptian Remington RB. The gun is complete and has a very good bore. I shoot triple 7 and use 44-77 data. The old gun is over 150 years old and has shot lots of wheel weights. Never had a problem with the firing pin. These black powder guns can be loaded with out dies. Knock the primer out with a steal pin, thumb seat the bullets and primers can be seated with only a shell holder or a wooden dowl rod and mallet. They never need sizing with BP loads. 

[streak]

I recently found a nice Argentine carbine at a gun show. Of course had to shoot it some, so ordered 20 cases from Jamison on the last day they were open. I fireformed them with shotgun powder and cream 'o' wheat, and found they would take a .443" bullet after firing. So I made a .443" push through sizer, and sized down some Lyman #446110 Mauser bullets. Dip lubed them, and load over 77 gr. KIK FFg settled with a drop tube. I use this charge because it allows the bullets to just touch the rifling. They shoot great, around 2.5 - 3 MOA which ain't bad for the little carbine with its crude sights. After firing I decap and clean the cases, recap and they're ready to go again. No reloading dies needed, and cases should last a long time. Great fun!

Nobade,
You have tweaked my interest on using a carbine like this and not having to use any reloading dies for reloads.
Have you any idea what velocity or muzzle energy you are generating with this load? Are you starting off with new 43 Spanish cases?

[Swampman]

Black Powder is highly corrosive.  Pyrodex is somewhat corrosive. .

Your source for that bit of wisdom comes from where?

35 years of shooting many pounds of both.

[Nobade]

I recently found a nice Argentine carbine at a gun show. Of course had to shoot it some, so ordered 20 cases from Jamison on the last day they were open. I fireformed them with shotgun powder and cream 'o' wheat, and found they would take a .443" bullet after firing. So I made a .443" push through sizer, and sized down some Lyman #446110 Mauser bullets. Dip lubed them, and load over 77 gr. KIK FFg settled with a drop tube. I use this charge because it allows the bullets to just touch the rifling. They shoot great, around 2.5 - 3 MOA which ain't bad for the little carbine with its crude sights. After firing I decap and clean the cases, recap and they're ready to go again. No reloading dies needed, and cases should last a long time. Great fun!

Nobade,
You have tweaked my interest on using a carbine like this and not having to use any reloading dies for reloads.
Have you any idea what velocity or muzzle energy you are generating with this load? Are you starting off with new 43 Spanish cases?

No idea. It should be around 1200 fps or so from that little carbine barrel, but I haven't run them over a chronograph. I did start with new cases, like I said above. But Jamison has closed their doors so if you want some you'd better get them fast. Track of the wolf, Buffalo arms, Dixie, and others were stocking dealers for Jamison so there might be some on shelves still.

I also load ammo for my Swiss Vetterli and my Sharps the same way. Figure out what size bullet fits in a fired case, make some that size, and hand seat them. You really don't need any dies most of the time. For the 43 Spanish you will need a shellholder though, or some way to seat new primers. I made one myself, but the reloading die companies should have one that fits.

As to black powder being more corrosive than Pyrodex, that runs exactly counter to my own experience. The only times I have EVER had corrosion problems with guns it was due to using Pyrodex. Never had a problem with real black, ever. 

[Swampman]

Both are highly corrosive so it's a moot point.  As long as you clean your gun there's nothing to be concerned about.  BH209 isn't corrosive but it's too expensive for me.

[Ranch13]

Blackpowder is mildly corrosive, depending on the brand and how much nitrates and sodium the residue contains. The residue from blackpowder is easily removed with water. It will attack the brass cases if left in a extemely humid condition for an extended period of time.
Pyrodex is treated with large quantities of potassium perchlorate, and that is what causes it to be so extremely corrosive, and has actually ruined some guns that did not get followup cleaning and oiled. That is why Hogdons themselves caution tht pyrodex is highly corrosive and guns need to be cleaned immediately. It as with all the so called blackpowder "substitutes" will ruin brass if not cleaned promptly. There are examples of brass cases shot with 777 actually desinigrating a year later...
The wives tales about blackpowder are numerous and widely abound. But in actual fact cleanup with blackpowder is extremely easy, can be accomplished with nothing more complicated that plain water, and a gentle coating of 3n1 oil afterwards.
Cleaning the cases is the biggest job, but is relatively painless, a simple shaking of a jar filled with simplegreen , water and the deprimed fired cases and then rinse with clean water, dry the cases and go. If you are going out in public and don't want to be shameful of dull cases, simply run them thru vibratory cleaner with your favored case cleaning media concoction.

[Swampman]

I've been reading this stuff for years and I don't believe it.  Just clean your brass and guns the same way with any of the subs that you would with blackpowder and there will be no problems.  I've been doing it for 35 years.  BH209 is a smokeless powder and so it's no more corrosive than any other smokeless powder.

[Ranch13]

Best I can tell you from a lifetime of experience with the blackpowder, and occasional forays into the sub world. Is that blackpowder is easy clean up, I do not have anyguns corroded or pitted . I do have some brass that was fired with 777 that if it does not recieve periodic cleaning will get green stuff growing on it..
BH209 , and trailboss both have been shown to leave residue that can when the conditons are right turn to sulphuric acid.
I don't understand with the relative ease of getting blackpowder anywhere that a UPS or Fedex truck will deliver why anybody would even bother with the so called "subs".
Near as I can tell if you're not going to shoot blackpowder then you might as well shoot smokeless.

[Swampman]

I can get the subs for 1/2 what blackpowder cost when Walmart closes them out after hunting season.  I use them a lot.  Cheap is good IMO.  They all work equally well except in flintlocks.

[Ranch13]

If you get pyrodex to work in a flintlock you'ld be the only person that has ever done it.Many including hogdons would like to know your secret.
You can get 10lbs of KIK delivered from Powder Inc any day of the year for 156$

[Swampman]

You'll note I said except in flintlocks.  It can be done but you have to use a few grains of 3f to get it all started.  I buy Pyrodex for $5.00 a lb. Goex 3f cost me $11.00 a lb.

[Ranch13]

Well you better just keep buying that stuff at those prices, because it's been years since Goex was 11$.

[Lead pot]

It amazes me that someone would make a statement that real blk powder is more corrosive then Pyrodex makes me wonder if they really shoot black powder.
When Pyrodex first came on the market I got a pound of that crap and loaded my front stuffer with it and the stuff was not reliable with my cap lock and seating a ball got to be a problem after a few shots with out moping the bore.
And the first time I ever pulled a brown patch out of a barrel I cleaned was after using pyrodex. Something I never had happen with real blk powder since 1954 or 53.
If your paying $5.00 for pyrodex that is selling for $ 22. you better buy a bunch of it because I cant even get a tin of percussion caps for that price.
 

[Swampman]

It amazes me that someone thinks that it matters.  Just clean the gun the same way with either and it's all good.  The both cause metal to rust like crazy if you don't clean properly.  Almost nobody cleans properly......I bought a ton of caps at Walmart for 25 cents a tin.  I'll never run out.

[longcaribiner]

the refurbished Argentines have much better barrel steel than the untouched 43 Spanish rolling blocks.  Hard bullets will swage the rifling smooth in the soft steel original barrels.  They will also increasepressures in those barrels.  Also, if you include the Reformado, there were 4 separate cartridges called 43 Spanish.  the 11.15 that takes a .439 bullet is most common.  There was also a cartridge that took a .433 bullet and a shorter carbine cartridge that took the .433 bullet.  The reformado is a total aberration.  It takes a 454 bullet.  also the cartridge is not bottle necked it is belled.       

As I understand it the cartridge for the narrower bullet 43 spanish, will fit in the 11.15 (.439) chamber guns, but the cases will rupture. 

[longcaribiner]

Pyroduh is more corrosive and it is harder to nuetralize the fouling.  Yes isf you scrub the gun well, it should not make a difference.  Pyroduh fouling has a way of seeping into the microscopic pours of the steel and rusting even days after a cleaning that would be fine for a gun that shot regular Goex. 

It is easy to test.  Fire five shots with Pyroduh, and plug the bore.  add a measured amount of water.  and let it set for a few minutes and pour it into a container.  clean the gun well and fire the same number of shots with Goex and plug the bore and add the water.  Let it set the same number of minutes and pour the water into a second container.  Measure the ph of each with litmus paper.   The litmus paper will change more in the Pyroduh water proving the Pyroduh is more corrosive. 

Easy simple and quite conclusive.

[Swampman]

I keep hearing these oft repeated old wives tales, but the fact is they are all highly corrosive.  A simple cleaning with tepid water and there is no problem.

[longcaribiner]

Not a wives tale, anybody can repeat the above and verify a scientific test proving it. 

Yes they are all corrosive in varying degrees.  I still have the original container of Pyroduh that I purchased 30 years ago.  Darn near ruined a trapdoor shooting that stuff.  After the match I swabbed the bore good with bore cleaner, wiped the whole gun down and coated with oil for the 12 hour trip home, where the guns would get a thorough cleaning.  Got home and went to clean the gun and found it coated with fine rust  inside despite being scrubbed with the bore cleaner and coated with oil.  Never ever had black powder do that to any gun treated the same.    Others reported similar rusting.  So we did the test. 

Now I suppose there is a possibility that the formula has changed over the years.  But others report the same problem.  Match shooters won't use it in general because it is too variable in results from shot to shot. 

As long as I have cheaper black powder, I will stick to that.   I do understand that in some areas of the country, black is very hard to find for sale.  In PA we have a flint lock deer season and black powder is  offered in at least a hundred to 200 places, so it is far easier to find.   I can buy it by the pound 4 miles from home and in bulk for much less, just 75 miles away.   

[Swampman]

The formula hasn't changed, you just have to clean the barrel after you shoot just like blackpowder.  If you barrel was hurt, it wasn't the Pyrodex that did it.  I use it all the time.