Author Topic: Thinking about a Magnum Rifle  (Read 881 times)

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Offline Danny Boy

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Thinking about a Magnum Rifle
« on: January 13, 2004, 01:18:01 PM »
With my two bolt-action rifles, .243 and .270, I have predator and deer hunting pretty well covered. For the coming season, I am thinking of getting a magnum rifle for elk and moose hunting in either 7mm or 300 caliber. Please help me with the following:

What are the pros and cons of the 7mm RM vs 300 WM for elk and moose? I am afraid if I go for the 7mm now I may still want a 300 caliber rifle. Does it make sense to opt for the 300 mag now?

Should I consider 7mm WSM and 300 WSM and what is the advantage of the WSM? This may sound funny but would they still be around in 10 years?

Note that I like long action rifles and I do reload.

Danny Boy

Offline Lawdog

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Thinking about a Magnum Rifle
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2004, 02:16:24 PM »
Danny Boy,

Quote
What are the pros and cons of the 7mm RM vs 300 WM for elk and moose? I am afraid if I go for the 7mm now I may still want a 300 caliber rifle. Does it make sense to opt for the 300 mag now?


When in doubt like you are I would go with the cartridge that has the largest selection of bullets and loadings.  For me that would be the .300 magnum.

Quote
Should I consider 7mm WSM and 300 WSM and what is the advantage of the WSM? This may sound funny but would they still be around in 10 years?


Have no fear the WSM line of cartridges will be around for many years.  Right now they are about the hottest selling line of cartridges.  The main thing they seem to have going for them is their inherent accuracy.  Actions for these rifles a shorter lending themselves to better accuracy as is the shorter, fatter cartridge design.  If I wanted a magnum and didn't have one I would DEFINITELY be looking at the .300 WSM as my first.  Lawdog
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline wareagleguy

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Thinking about a Magnum Rifle
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2004, 02:57:07 PM »
I'm with the dog on this!!!

Yep, the 300WSM is the ticket.  Matter of fact I held a SAKO Finnlight in 300 WSM and it was nice.  Everyone is making WSM now and I just do not believe it will die...ever.  I hear people talk about if the WSM craze will end but I believe the day of the belted magnums are the ones that will die.  Why would anyone buy a big, heavy long barrel magnum when you can do it with regular sized rifle.  

Case you are wondering I have a 270 WSM and have shot and reloaded for the 300 WSM.  Both are very good shooters.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Offline huntsman

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Thinking about a Magnum Rifle
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2004, 04:12:07 PM »
I am definitely not trying to talk you out of getting a new caliber if that is what you want. But I would like to add my $.02 for the record. Your .270 will easily handle elk and moose with premium bullets. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. There is no NEED for a magnum. If you WANT one, that is fine, but don't listen to anyone who says you NEED one.

150 - 165gr core-lokts, A-fames, partitions, fail-safes, among others travelling at 2800+ muzzle velocity from a .270 will dispatch any moose or elk on the planet with authority at any kind of sane range (less than 400 yards).

Have a great time hunting the big antlers regardless of your choice! 8)
There is no more humbling experience for man than to be fully immersed in nature's artistry.

Offline longwinters

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« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2004, 04:31:57 PM »
If you want a mag and you already have the 270 then I too would say the 300.  Even though I like the 7mm, it would be (in my mind) too close to what you already have.   But  I would question the push about the whole inherant accuracy thing.  Basically I think it is theory.  After all, can a short mag shoot a smaller group at 100, 200, 300 yds than the same caliber in a regular cartridge?  I doubt it.  It seems to be something that sounds good but no one would ever be a good enough shot to prove.  I am not trying to make anyone mad here but I see no proof on targets that this theory means anything to me as a shooter or a hunter.  If you want a short mag then get one.  But dont think it is going to revolutionize your shooting.  Or allow you to make shots that you could not make before.  I also would question the velocity stuff also. Are they shooting the same pressures etc...  and on and on and on.  In 10 years people will do just what they do now.  They will look back on the parent cartridge that all these other ones were birthed from and say, "you know what, that old cartridge did everything this one does and it has some something these dont.  It has soul".  And then they will buy the old stuff.   But I dont need to beat this thing and offend people about their choice in rifles.  The 300 mag (in whatever configuration you get it in) would be a great choice.

long
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Offline Big Tom

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Thinking about a Magnum Rifle
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2004, 05:41:22 PM »
Given the factors I would concur with the .300 mag. I have a new Sako Finnlite in .300 WSM and am very impressed so far. I shot close to MOA right out of the box with factory Rem PSPs and noticed the recoil definitely was NOT as bad as a Savage all weather in .300 Mag I had about 4 yrs ago that kicked like a mule.

I also think Longwinters brings up another issue....If you find a rifle that you really like....fits you well...beautiful wood...whatever. I wouldn't pass up a long action over a short action if the caliber was the same or adequate for the game your after.

I had a newer Tikka Hunter in .243. It was a great gun and a tack driver, but I seldom took it out of my guncase. Suddenly this older model Winchester 70 Classic in 7mm STW(new in the box) shows up in the local gun shop. Instantly I'm in LOVE!  :eek: I've always loved the pre 64 Classic style and swapped in a heartbeat . Why??? I have a .300 WSM, 30.06, two .270s, and a 7X57. Its not that I needed the caliber....I wanted the rifle. (The caliber ain't too shabby either...outsprints the 7 mm Wby. ):roll:

Isn't great we live in a country where we still can have a rifle because we like it!  8)
Tom Gursky
Northwoods Guide Service
"May all your trophies be worthy of The Book"

Offline Barstooler

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Thinking about a Magnum Rifle
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2004, 07:15:54 PM »
If your are: "elk/moose/magnum" oriented get something with some thing with respectable stopping power/velocity depending on the "range" you expect to engage the critter at.  If under 200 yards just get yourself a .35 Whelen or a .350 Howell.  If over 200 yards buy a .338 Remington Ultra Mag.
Beverage of Choice -  Jeremiah Weed
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Offline Danny Boy

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Thinking about a Magnum Rifle
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2004, 05:52:02 PM »
Thanks for feedback. I think 300 is the way to go. The remaining question is whether it is a 300 WM or WSM.  I hear Browning has feeding problems in 300 WSM. Winchester with the controlled round push feed is a better way to go.  Any experience?  

On the other hand, there seems to be consensus that WSM has less recoil than the WM.

Danny

Offline Big Tom

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Thinking about a Magnum Rifle
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2004, 07:40:18 PM »
I would strongly consider a Win 70 Classic Sporter LT. A little heavier than the Super Shadow for a little less recoil...both with 24" barrels. Also Ruger and Savage are coming out with long awaited improvements ( triggers, etc...) this year that make make them strong contenders for your $$$.

If you have the means,$$$$...Weatherby Mark V Stainless in .300 mag (900$)

Sako Finnlite .300 WSM (1,100$) you can't go wrong with either.  :grin:
Tom Gursky
Northwoods Guide Service
"May all your trophies be worthy of The Book"

Offline ihuntbucks

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Thinking about a Magnum Rifle
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2004, 10:50:43 PM »
I also go with .300,I have a Mod 70 "Super Shadow".As someone once said"Better to have it and not need it,than to need it and not have it."           nuff said......................Rick :grin:
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Offline gunnut69

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« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2004, 08:06:37 AM »
I must chime in here.. The recoil of any round is based on the mass and velocity of the ejecta(bullet-powder et.al). Case shape has NOTHING to do with it.  The articles I've read pointedly said that velocity closely followed what would be expected given the bullet weight, case capacity and barrel length..  The 300 wsm is not magic.  Neither is the double radius of the weatherby rounds.  The factories may be loading these rounds to higher pressure levels or perhaps they are applying the same techknowledgy as the 'light magnum' ammo but if they throw a given bullet the same speed as the 300 win they will recoil with the same force.  That is physics.  I have nothing against the wsm rounds but fail to see any major advantage..
gunnut69--
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Offline Omaha-BeenGlockin

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Thinking about a Magnum Rifle
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2004, 09:10:18 AM »
Recall reading somewhere that the WSM's had less recoil with the same performance as the Win mag----because of the smaller powder charge and more efficient burn.

No dog in this fight----so not sure either way-----have a .338 Win and really don't need any other magnum cartridge than that. I mean---what in North America won't it drop???   No plans for Africa.

Offline Big Tom

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« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2004, 09:52:46 AM »
Gunnut, I taught Physics for a few years....the law you are alluding to is; "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" when force is applied to an object.
When you apply this law to the felt recoil of two different cartridges..such as .300 WSM and .300 Win Mag, there are many variables invovled, the cartridge case design, shoulder angle, etc... I'm sure you understand that stock design, drop at the comb, and mass rigidity(the ability to absorb energy or transfer it to the shoulder of the shooter) can greatly effect the felt recoil also.
I don't disagree with you as far as the capabilities of the WSM vs the .300 Win. It basically duplicates the .300 Win performance up to 180 gr and then it quickly loses ground because of the short case length. It is not a "magic bullet" in any way. It is a way to provide .300 Win performance in a short action...in really only 150-180gr loads
But you cannot argue that a Sako Finnlite .300 WSM recoils appreciably less than a .300 Win Mag in a Savage Weather Warrior....I shot them both with ammo from the same box of 180 Corlokts. I had two different friends who shoot 7mm mags shoot this .300 WSM and agree that the recoil was not any different than their 7mm mags. It should be noted that a Finnlite is a bit heavier than say a Rem Mountain rifle or Model 7 which I think would really rock you in a .300 WSM.
There obviously are some reasons for this phenomenon beyond my technical kowledge. I am sure we will get more info/interest as the short mags become abundant.
I do not desire to criticise your opinion Gunnut...I enjoy your posts and info. I wish you lived closer...I'd have take a few shots and see what you think that makes this rifle shoot so much "easier" than my Savage 300 Win.  :grin:
Tom Gursky
Northwoods Guide Service
"May all your trophies be worthy of The Book"

Offline azshooter

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Thinking about a Magnum Rifle
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2004, 02:28:56 PM »
Quote
I don't disagree with you as far as the capabilities of the WSM vs the .300 Win. It basically duplicates the .300 Win performance up to 180 gr and then it quickly loses ground because of the short case length. It is not a "magic bullet" in any way. It is a way to provide .300 Win performance in a short action...in really only 150-180gr loads


Looking at my Lyman 48th edition manual 200 Gr Bullet in 300 WSM 2842 FPS 62,800 PSI.  The 300 WM is 2938 FPS at 62,900 PSI.  Only 96 FPS difference.  Hardly worth mentioning.  The Hodgdon web site has 220gr loads up from 2602 to 2689 fps from the WSM which is comparable to the 300 mag same bullet same barrel length.  I'm beginning to think the story about the 300 WSM not shooting heavy bullets is just a myth that came about from lack of loading data.

Offline gunnut69

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« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2004, 02:48:06 PM »
BIgTom
I'm a bit surprised by your statement.  The recoil impulse a rifle generates has absolutely nothing to do with anything other than the mass and velocity of the bullet/powder, as I said before.  That velocity may be affected by the case, case shape, case capacity, etc., but the mass and velocity of the ejecta is what generates the recoil impulse.  How that recoil impulse is transmitted and absorbed is not recoil, it's how we perceive the recoil.  In that vein the variables that change the effect are many but we weren't discussing felt recoil.  We were trying to correct the incorrect statement that a cartridge could generate the same ballistics as another round and yet produce a lesser recoil impulse.  This to me assumes we are comparing apples to apples.  Savage rifle to savage or whatever.  The cartridge has no effect on the amount of recoil produced.  If a 180 grain 30 caliber bullet exits the muzzle at a given velocity there is no more or less recoil due to the case that generated that velocity..  Perceived recoil is indeed an entirely different subject and the variables are myriad..  stock design, weapon weight etc..  Even action type can play a role in felt recoil.  An autoloading action produces a deffinite reduction in felt recoil.  It does this not by absorbing the recoil but by spreading the application of that force to the shooter over a longer period of time.  The articles I've been reading universally say the exact same thing.  The WSM cartridges are great, the rifles shoot well and they develope the velocity one would expect based on their case capacities compared to other like capacity rounds, i.e. the 300WSM and the 300Win.  And sir I must also disagree with the statement 'It basically duplicates the .300 Win performance up to 180 gr and then it quickly loses ground because of the short case length.'  The case length also has little to do with the velocity differences.  The cause is simply case capacity.  Case length is but a single measurement and case diameter is also a factor, but they are both simply just factors in the capacity of the case in question.  I suppose we could add 10 pounds of lead shot to a 300UltraMag.  This would alter the felt recoil of the rifle immensely.  Would this then allow us to advertise that this cartridge produces less recoil and more velocity than a 300 WinMag?  No!  
The paraphrase the 300 WSM is a great little answer to a question never asked.  It is just what it is a short fat 300WinMag.  That's not a bad thing!!  It doesn't however make the 300WSM a fantastic breakthru in ballistics.  In all one may save a 1/2 inch and a few ounces with such a rifle, if barrels are maintained at the same length(which must be done if velocities are to remain comparable). If all else remains equal that will be the extent of our gain, a few ounces, and 1/2 inch in length.  If you wish a 300WSM by all means go for it, but do so knowing that what you are buying is in effect and in practice a 1/2 shorter, few ounces lighter 300 Winchester.
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Offline Big Tom

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Thinking about a Magnum Rifle
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2004, 05:23:16 PM »
Well said gunnut. I made the statement"shorter case" for brevity of my response. Being a reloader I completely under why the load capacity of a WSM gets curtailed  when so much of it would be taken up by, lets say a 210 bullet , leaving a diminished amount of space for powder.
I suppose had the "Short Mag" developers used a little larger diameter case, they may have indeed exceeded the performance of the .300 RM.

I stand corrected on my terminology re; the felt/perceived recoil issue....I have read several articles and perused charts on the topic. My initial resonse to the thread was an offhand reccomendation without the indepth perspective.

Upon closer examination of my new Sako I have I noticed they have installed a deCellerator type recoil pad...which would not be apples to apples to the hard pad on the Savage.

By the way I am a pretty traditional kind of guy. If there was a nice .300 H&H in a pre 64 Model 70 available I would definitely have traded for that instead of the new short mag.  :D But that wasn't the question.
Tom Gursky
Northwoods Guide Service
"May all your trophies be worthy of The Book"