Scout rifles ?

[Singleshotsam]

A forward mounted scope does not necessarily a scout rifle make.
 
Here for a full discussion:  http://www.scoutrifle.org/index.php?topic=1298.0

I agree with that, but also remember that without good sights it's hard to be accurate.  The crosshairs in a scope or even the dot on an aimpoint allow for more consistant accuracy.
 
The Ruger scout would be acceptable without any optics I believe.  As would the Savage 10fcm Scout.

[ScoutMan]

 
I agree with that, but also remember that without good sights it's hard to be accurate.  quote]
 
Ya but http://www.scoutrifle.org/index.php?topic=1326.0

[SHOOTALL]

I checked out the % deal and can only say conditions at time of shot may vary. It will be much easier to control trigger and sight aligment on a warm day than a cold one . So the assignment of values depends to much to carve in stone.

[AtlLaw]

I always thought one of the shortened 7.62 Ishapore 2A1 or even the Lee-Enfield No4 MkI's would fit the scout rifle bill in a pretty cost effective manner... 

[eye shot]

A scout would be by himself and wouldn't engage multiple targets, no need for a auto. A bolt is more dependable and operates fast enough, if you remember Lee Harvey Oswald.

[SHOOTALL]

I don't know about that, a scout is not amune to ambush .............

[bilmac]

One man cannot shoot his way out of an ambush no matter what kind of gun he carries. He had better be good enough to avoid ambush or he will soon be a dead scout.

[kevinsmith5]

One man cannot shoot his way out of an ambush no matter what kind of gun he carries. He had better be good enough to avoid ambush or he will soon be a dead scout.

Two gentlemen by the name of Alvin York and Audie Murphy come to mind off the top of my head. I'm also a bit partial to a Navy Cross winner named Ray Smith too, but I could be biased...

[Swampman]

Learn to shoot and you won't need a jamomatic.

[SHOOTALL]

Learn to shoot and you won't need a jamomatic.

its about reloading fast enough not shooting 

[SHOOTALL]

One man cannot shoot his way out of an ambush no matter what kind of gun he carries. He had better be good enough to avoid ambush or he will soon be a dead scout.

I disagree

[mannyrock]

 
 
    I seem to remember reading an article by Cooper, regarding one of his final versions of the scout rifle, in which he said that he went to an Army base and shot a combat rifle course with his scout (which I believed is a timed course), and scored more hits that half of the soldiers with their M-16s.
 
   I wonder how many hundred rounds are fired by the average U.S. combat rifleman in combat for every one hit on an enemy he achieves.  Probably close to a thousand. 
 
   From what I see on t.v. footage, from both Iraq and Iran, when the shooting starts,  alot of guys get behind their rifles and fire off lots and lots of rounds, . . . but I don't see much aiming going on, even when they are shooting from behind a fortified position.
 
Mannyrock

[bilmac]

I watched the movies about both York and Murphie, and I didn't see any ambushes. In a good ambush the first shot fired should kill someone. If there is just one guy, he will have several weapons pointed at just him, they will go off at almost the same time. Yup, people survive ambushes, but that is usually because there were several targets and they were the lucky ones who weren't targeted when the ambush was sprung.

When in Nam our unit did some target practicing one day. I was apalled at how bad of shooters the other guys in our platoon were. I guess we were shooting 25 yards or so, and the groups were huge. I thought to myself that these are the guys I'm depending on if we get into a bad situation?

[Rock Home Isle]

One man cannot shoot his way out of an ambush no matter what kind of gun he carries. He had better be good enough to avoid ambush or he will soon be a dead scout.

Fortunately ignorance is cureable.

[Rock Home Isle]

.......When in Nam our unit did some target practicing one day. I was apalled at how bad of shooters the other guys in our platoon were. I guess we were shooting 25 yards or so, and the groups were huge. I thought to myself that these are the guys I'm depending on if we get into a bad situation?

The Millitary did a skills assessment following the Vietnam War and it was found that basic marksmanship skills were not being taught or reinforced during basic training of our soldiers. We had gone to a spray and pray mentality.
 
Current training of our soldiers enforces proper marksmanship skills and this is paying off in Afganistan where the ranges of target engagements are much farther and marksmen is a needed component.

[Bart Solo]

We are not talking about run of the mill soldiers.  We are talking about scouts, soldiers who are hightly trained and very experienced.  Each scout will have outstanding trigger control and good judgment or he won't be a scout.  What we are talking about here is the tool we give the very best to allow him (or her) to work most effiently when alone.  If I was in charge of scouts, I would let each one of them pick his own weapon. The modern scout (a product of the modern military) would pick something with which he is familar.  He would pick it on the basis of his own judgment. My guess is most of them would pick something in the AR or AK families tricked out as he would like to see it.  I can easily see a scout picking a gas piston AR in 6.8 SPC or the Russian round, with a good optic.  I doubt any would pick one of the Gunsite Rugers.    Depending on the mission I can see a scout picking a Remington ot Barret turnbolt, just not the goofy Gunsite Scout rifle.

[Swampman]

That's because the Scout Rifle isn't really a combat rifle.  It's a General Purpose Rifle.  A sniper will kill one person+ for evey 2 rounds fired.  The average ground pounder will expend about 2200.  It's all a matter of being able to shoot.

[Singleshotsam]

Does somebody really need to remind you guys AGAIN what the original topic was? The OPs question was...


 

I have been interested in a scout type rifle for some time now so when ruger came out with theres I thought that it would be the one, but after reading some mixed reviews about it I'm not so sure.
 
Do any of you have pics of your home made version of what you think a scout rifle should be ?

All this arguing about Col. Cooper did this or Ground Pounders did that are irrelevant to the subject matter of this thread.

[Spanky]

All this arguing about Col. Cooper did this or Ground Pounders did that are irrelevant to the subject matter of this thread.

 
So what... it's a good thread with lots of different opinions.
 
 
 
Spanky

[Rock Home Isle]

The 2012 Gun Buyer's Annual has an articles by Gary Paul Johnston, "Ruger Gunsite Scout .308".
 
Actually a very informative article that touches on a lot of what is being discussed in this thread.

[kevinsmith5]

I watched the movies about both York and Murphie, and I didn't see any ambushes. In a good ambush the first shot fired should kill someone. If there is just one guy, he will have several weapons pointed at just him, they will go off at almost the same time. Yup, people survive ambushes, but that is usually because there were several targets and they were the lucky ones who weren't targeted when the ambush was sprung.

When in Nam our unit did some target practicing one day. I was apalled at how bad of shooters the other guys in our platoon were. I guess we were shooting 25 yards or so, and the groups were huge. I thought to myself that these are the guys I'm depending on if we get into a bad situation?

Maybe you should read the books.....and actually yes, York's famous action was a single over matched man with a bolt action facing crossfire from entrenched machine gun positions.

And on a guess, you were Army in Vietnam Nam? A lot of the draftees fired their first rounds in boot. The all volinteer force is a horse of a different color. Current accuracy with the M-4 is sufficiently high they the Marines were suspected of executing prisoners because they were taking so many head shots. Average range turned out to be 175 meters. With improved accuracy of the platform I think AR can be a scout rifle.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk

[Rock Home Isle]

And Swampman's anti-semi-auto scout rifle post in 3....2...1....

[Hooker]

kevinsmith5 If they are indeed making 175 meter head shots that is decent shooting.
Especially considering their weapon has an average accuracy of 4 moa.

Getting back to the original post I don't own a scout or scout concept weapon but, I have fired a few of them.
The first was a worked over Remington 700 .308 that work quite well with a forward mounted 2 power handgun scope.
Accurate enough out to 300 yards but it would have been better IMO as a light weight sporter carbine with rear mounted low power variable scope.
The next was a shortened Marlin 336 30/30 excellent setup with a Burris Scout scope and Skinner sights.
Not a 200 yard rifle but very fast on target out to 150 yards any competent shooter would feel well armed with that little rifle.
The last was an AK with a handgun scope nice enough but a bit sloppy and accuracy was a bit lacking.
I've owned a few AK and prefer them with good combat sights and no scope.

On another note I'm not sure Cooper was the originator of the concept as much as he was the name.
His preference as to what this concept should be is just that his preference.
I'm sure the old Colonel would agree that it is more important that the weapon fit the individuals needs rather than fit a written in stone one size fits all concept.

Pat

[351 power]

i like the idea of iron sights as backup on any rifle. sadly today they are rarely there on new rifles. that is the only thing to really appeal to  me about the scout platform.  after all these years of iron sights and short eye relief scopes i would have a hard time changing old habits. that's just me though. i'll stick with what i know

[Singleshotsam]

kevinsmith5 If they are indeed making 175 meter head shots that is decent shooting.
Especially considering their weapon has an average accuracy of 4 moa.

Getting back to the original post I don't own a scout or scout concept weapon but, I have fired a few of them.
The first was a worked over Remington 700 .308 that work quite well with a forward mounted 2 power handgun scope.
Accurate enough out to 300 yards but it would have been better IMO as a light weight sporter carbine with rear mounted low power variable scope.
The next was a shortened Marlin 336 30/30 excellent setup with a Burris Scout scope and Skinner sights.
Not a 200 yard rifle but very fast on target out to 150 yards any competent shooter would feel well armed with that little rifle.
The last was an AK with a handgun scope nice enough but a bit sloppy and accuracy was a bit lacking.
I've owned a few AK and prefer them with good combat sights and no scope.

On another note I'm not sure Cooper was the originator of the concept as much as he was the name.
His preference as to what this concept should be is just that his preference.
I'm sure the old Colonel would agree that it is more important that the weapon fit the individuals needs rather than fit a written in stone one size fits all concept.

Pat

In what world do you live in where an M4's average group is 4 MOA!?  EVERY M4 I've shot (even the cheaply made ones) group well under 2"  With most of those groups averaging 3/4" at 100 yards.  Sub MOA my friend.

Also the article he is refrencing is a story about how Marines are utilizing optics more frequently on their battle rifles.  Even with irons though a 175 yard shot w/ an m4 is a cake walk.  Which brings me to my next point.

Modern combat optics have rendered the forward mounted scope on a scout rifle useless.  And Aimpoint, E.O Tech, or ACOG far exceeds and outpreforms a low powered forward mounted pistol scope in both low light situations and in combat situations.  Coopers idea of using a IER scope on his rifles were essentially an early version of these newer opitcs.
 
An AR15 style rifle, coupled with one of these advanced combat sights will out preform a bolt action scout rifle every day in the hands of a capable disciplined marksman. 

[Hooker]

Military issue M4s are not tack driver. Yes the AR platform can produce some very superb accuracy.
4 moa is average accuracy for standard military issue AR type rifles and is considered acceptable accuracy for a battle weapon.
The military has specialized AR based weapons that are capable of fine accuracy, but they are issued to specialized military individuals and in no way are they to be considered average.
That's what world I live in.

Pat

[Rock Home Isle]

Military issue M4s are not tack driver. Yes the AR platform can produce some very superb accuracy.
4 moa is average accuracy for standard military issue AR type rifles and is considered acceptable accuracy for a battle weapon.
The military has specialized AR based weapons that are capable of fine accuracy, but they are issued to specialized military individuals and in no way are they to be considered average.
That's what world I live in.

Pat

You are very correct, one of my buddies is back visitng over the holidays. His platoon will be shipping out here in a month or so. He's Working on getting his DM designation before they are deployed.
 
God Bless our men in unifom.

[Singleshotsam]

Ok I think I see what you guys are talking about when your saying 4 moa in an m4.  The military standards to accept an M4 from their contract mfg is a 10 round group, open sights, using non match ammo, inside of 4moa but what I couldn't find was at what distance and whether or not the shooting was from or rest or from a prone, kneeling, or unsupported position.

All of the M4's we've built and shot will hold groups from a rest under 2" iron sights @ 100 yards.  W/ optics all shot sub moa @ 100 yards minus one that I owned which was not built properly.

[Rock Home Isle]

Ok I think I see what you guys are talking about when your saying 4 moa in an m4.  The military standards to accept an M4 from their contract mfg is a 10 round group, open sights, using non match ammo, inside of 4moa but what I couldn't find was at what distance and whether or not the shooting was from or rest or from a prone, kneeling, or unsupported position.

All of the M4's we've built and shot will hold groups from a rest under 2" iron sights @ 100 yards.  W/ optics all shot sub moa @ 100 yards minus one that I owned which was not built properly.

That's a good question...I had just assumed that it was a 4 inch group or less, at 100 yards, from a rest or an 8 inch group or less at 200 yards under the same conditions.
 
But now that you bring it up...

[streak]

The Rem Mod 600 in .308 to me is a neat scout  rifle if you don`t knick pick about the actual overall lenght as mine is exactly 37.5". A very light weight rifle and a super rifle for fast shots and hunting in heavy thick surroundings! Many whitetails have met their demise from this little rifle. I changed out the original stock for a synthetic and that really changed the overall appearance of the rifle.
As a scout rifle it has all of the bells and whistles that you need.