Author Topic: Any Way to Lighten A Vanguard (Read 5720 times)

Bart Solo · « **on:** November 14, 2011, 07:10:37 AM »

I have a tan and spider Vanguard in 30-06 topped with a Leupold Scope. It is a really good shooter and I have used it for several years, but as I have gotten older it is kind of heavy to carry in the woods all day. I mostly like to still hunt. I am not ready to sit in a stand and freeze. I have been thinking about replacing the current stock with one of the Bell and Carlson classic stocks. That way I would get rid of the Weatherby cheek piece and maybe save a little weight. Is there any way to lighten up a Vanguard by changing stocks or is my idea just not worth the effort.

Graybeard · « **Reply #1 on:** November 14, 2011, 05:39:01 PM »

I lightened my Vanguard .257 WM up by getting rid of it and buying a Remington 700 LSS .257 WM. In the process I'd guess I lost at least a pound and a half likely more. It is also being offered these days in the stainless fluted barrel CDL which should be even lighter than the gray laminated stock on mine.

I can't say for sure on changing stocks. Take it off and weigh the stock and barrelled action separately and see how much weight is in each. That should give you some idea.

rbursek · « **Reply #2 on:** November 14, 2011, 05:57:00 PM »

Buy a Tika t3 Light

Bart Solo · « **Reply #3 on:** November 15, 2011, 02:46:05 AM »

I have been thinking that a new rifle is in order as well. The Vanguard has been a good rifle for several years, but it really doesn't fit the way I hunt.

I have looked at the Tikka and at the Savage 11 lightweight hunter. I haven't looked at Remington 700 LSS. I think that if I go to a lightweight rifle I am going to need to go with a lighter cartridge. The Savage comes in a 6.5 Creedmore which seems attractive, but heck I am always attracted to odd cartridges. Everybody has a 7-08 or a 243. My 24 caliber rifle is a 6 MM Remington 788 I have had forever. It was my first deer rifle. My granddaughter used it for her first hunt this year just like her father. The old 788 is still in good shape, but it mostly sits in my safe waiting for the next youngster.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #4 on:** November 17, 2011, 04:42:29 AM »

I have been doing a little research and have given this issue some thought. First, my current rifle is a real shooter. It was Sub MOA on the target from the factory and has been ever sense. I don't want to lose a real shooter. Second, if I buy a new lightweight rifle, I will have to invest at least $1000 in the project when you factor in the cost of decent optics. For $725-750 I can buy a new lightweight stock from Brown or MPI and they will bed it to make sure it retains its accuracy. I can pay around $500 and bed it myself, but I don't really want to learn how to glass bed on this rifle. Since modern lightweight fiberglass, kevlar and graphite stocks are much lighter than the injection molded stock that came from the factory, I can expect to save at least a pound probably more. It will have the look of a custom gun for a fraction of the price.
As to Tikka, they are nice rifles, but I don't really need another 30-06. As to the Savage 11, I might buy one in 243 later in the year to have a rifle available for kids and grandkids who show up at our deer camp. Simply buying a Savage 11 lightweight hunter for me doesn't solve the need for another rifle. I really want to save the 788 for first time hunter grandkids.
My big question now is which of the stock makers do I use? I am favoring MPI, but I have heard a lot of good stuff about Brown. McMillian seems to be a really big company. I know I can buy a cheaper stock from Bell and Carlson or Hogue, but they are as heavy as the stock I have.

mannyrock · « **Reply #5 on:** November 17, 2011, 04:51:59 AM »

Bart,

A couple of other ideas to help lighten the rifle further after the new stock.

1. If it has a 22 inch barrel, have it professionally cut and recrowned to 21 inches. You will never notice the loss of that one inch, and it will be a much handier rifle, especially since you like to still hunt.

2. If you like Leupold scopes, make sure that the one you put on your rifle is a Vari-X II, in 2x7. It is compact and lightweight and more than adequate for any hunting you may do. Putting big pieces of glass on rifles adds unnecessary weight.

3. I don't know if your current rifle has bottom metal, or whether it is a blind magazine. If it has bottom metal, then shed that weight by seeing if Brown or McMillan can make your new stock with a blind magazine.

4. If you are currently using heavy rings, try switching to Burris Z-Rings. I have found them to be extremely strong, and lighter than other steel rings.

Just some thoughts.

Mannyrock

Bart Solo · « **Reply #6 on:** November 17, 2011, 07:23:00 PM »

Well I ordered a new stock today from MPI. I know that people either love them or hate them, but the people who have had the most experience with them love them. I chose them over Brown, the other major builder who goes light with Kevlar, because they have the stock I want and I felt comfortable talking to their owner.

I talked to several of the people who make custom stocks over the last couple of days and have discovered that some of the best known stock makers are really small operations. A handful of employees at the most. McMillian is the biggest and they seem focused these days on building custom rifles. Of course there are B&C and Hogue, but they are really big industrial concerns supplying stocks to the mass market and the big boy gun makers.

I have worked a lot with cowboy gun and leather smiths and understand that some of the biggest names in cowboy shooting are really small outfits. I guess the custom stock business is the same. Where else would a guy like me encounter the owners of at least two of the best known custom stock makers answering the phone.

I have also discovered there are synthetic stocks and then there are synthetic stocks. They might all look a like, but when you get under the skin you discover the technology employed by the better custom makers is not the same as the technology employed by the mass market firms. The custom firms all look down their noses at some of the highly touted technology (aluminium bedding blocks for example) being promoted by the mass market companies. I have also discovered that the people who are into custom stocks in a big way, are way into the stock as an art form. For many flashy colors and funny shapes rule over real functionality.

One thing is for sure, none of the custom synthetic stock makers has a really, really good website.

yooper77 · « **Reply #7 on:** November 17, 2011, 09:37:16 PM »

I wanted a Weatherby Mark V action for it 54 degree bolt lift and 24" barrels. I bought the following in lightly used:

Weatherby Mark V Ultra Lightweight in 338-06 A-Square weighs in at 7 lbs wearing Leupold VX-III 3.5-10x40mm scope and Leupold standard steel base and low rings.

Weatherby Mark V Sporter in 7mm-08 Remington weighs in at 7 lbs wearing Leupold VX-II 3-9x40mm scope and Leupold standard steel base and low rings.

yooper77

Bart Solo · « **Reply #8 on:** November 18, 2011, 02:45:58 AM »

Quote from: mannyrock on November 17, 2011, 04:51:59 AM

Bart,

A couple of other ideas to help lighten the rifle further after the new stock.

1. If it has a 22 inch barrel, have it professionally cut and recrowned to 21 inches. You will never notice the loss of that one inch, and it will be a much handier rifle, especially since you like to still hunt.

2. If you like Leupold scopes, make sure that the one you put on your rifle is a Vari-X II, in 2x7. It is compact and lightweight and more than adequate for any hunting you may do. Putting big pieces of glass on rifles adds unnecessary weight.

3. I don't know if your current rifle has bottom metal, or whether it is a blind magazine. If it has bottom metal, then shed that weight by seeing if Brown or McMillan can make your new stock with a blind magazine.

4. If you are currently using heavy rings, try switching to Burris Z-Rings. I have found them to be extremely strong, and lighter than other steel rings.

Just some thoughts.

Mannyrock

I hadn't thought about shortening the barrel, I don't think cutting it down to 21 inches would do much for weight but it certainly would make it a little handier. I currently have a Leupold vx 1 3x9 on the rifle. This might be the time to upgrade. Leupold is having a lot of sales right now. I like the 2X7 for the kind of hunting I do but a fixed power scope would be lighter. I have to do some research on rings. I thought about having them make the magazine blind, but one of the reasons I picked the Vanguard over a 700 ADL is I wanted a releasible floor plate. I think it is safer in a hunting rifle. I notice that a couple of vendors are selling some sort of plastic trigger guard assembly that includes a plastic magazine which is lighter. I might look into that. Right now I think I am going to stick with the releasable floorplate.

If I can get the weight down to a little over 7 pounds I will be very happy. I will have a rifle I can carry all day.

Graybeard · « **Reply #9 on:** November 18, 2011, 06:35:43 AM »

Did you weigh the current stock and ask the weight of the new stock you ordered to see how much it will reduce weight? I sure would have before putting out that kinda money for the intended purpose of reducing weight.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #10 on:** November 18, 2011, 07:45:34 AM »

The rifle currently weighs 7.75 pounds. The stock weighs 2.25 pounds. The new stock, with pad, will weigh 20-24 ounces. I realize that I am spending a lot of money for a pound or a little less in weight savings, but I will have a rifle that will weigh less than my buddy's Remington 700 with a wood stock. (He was shocked when he lifted the two and had to agree my Weatherby weighed more.) At 6.7 pounds or so it will be in the same weight range as your Remington 700 LSS (6.625). More importantly I will have a rifle I can tote all day. The same reason you spent as much buying the Remington.

I could save a little more weight by reducing the length of the barrel from 24 to 22 or even 21 inches, but I am not ready for that. Another place I could save weight is changing the scope. I doubt I would be able to save much but every little bit helps. There is an after market trigger assembly with a plastic clip that could be used to save an ounce or two, but I haven't gone that way yet.

I am surprised nobody has commented about felt recoil. Well, we are talking about a 30-06 which is sort of medium recoil and we are also talking about a hunting gun. I never notice two things when I shoot my hunting rifle--noise or recoil. Flinch is something you learn at the range. I have a lot of other guns I shoot in competition. I spend time at the range practicing and competing with them but I rarely ever spend time at the range shooting my hunting rifle for fun. The hunting rifle is a tool. I only shoot it when I am preparing to hunt or when I am hunting. When I am preparing to hunt I send the minimal number of rounds down range to insure it is sighted in. When hunting I try hard not to fire more than once.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #11 on:** November 20, 2011, 11:46:42 AM »

a lightweight kevlar stock, cutting the barrel from 24 in to maybe 21 or 22. You can skeletonize the mag body but for the most part your throwing alot of money at it. If it were me id live with it or buy something like a win featherweight, ruger ultra lite or a rem cdl. or Model 7. Ive got two weatherby vangurards just like yours a 257wby and a 300 wby. I dont mind the extra weight on the 300 but the 257 is a bit portly for that level of recoil. Someday when i get some extra money it will go down the line and be replaced by a cdl or Lss rem in 257.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #12 on:** November 20, 2011, 01:12:47 PM »

I might be throwing a lot of money at the rifle but so far I am still going to be paying less than a new lightweight rifle.

I have a theory, you can buy a Weatherby Vanguard at Walmart, throw away the cheap ass stock and replace it with a lightweight custom stock for around $1,000, and have as good a hunting rifle as a lot of custom hunting rifles costing twice as much.

What do I have to back up my theory? Well, that is exactly what a lot of custom builders do. (I know they don't buy from Walmart, but you get the idea.)

I think you can do the same thing with a lot of modern budget rifles. They all have good accuarcy and reasonable actions. They are cheap because manufacturers sell cheap stocks. I just think the Howa 1500 (Vanguard) is the best choice for upgrade.

Bart Solo · « **Reply #13 on:** November 20, 2011, 01:24:49 PM »

If I was running this experiment over again, I wouldn't do it with a 30-06. Instead I would use a Weatherby Vanguard in 257 Weatherby. That would be a real show stopper at next year's deer camp.

Maybe next year I will learn how to do my own work, buy a stock from McMillian, a bedding kit from Brownells, and save even more money over a custom rifle.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #14 on:** November 21, 2011, 01:34:36 AM »

problem with your thought is that the 257 needs the barrel lenght. As a matter of fact it can use 2 more inches then the 24 inch vanguards and it uses the same contour barrel as the 06 so the hole is smaller and because of that will weight even more. Again if a guy bought a cdl youd get the 26 inch barrel and it would probalby be even lighter then a restocked vanguard and you would be in the same ball park for price and if you ever decided to sell it it would hold its value better.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #15 on:** November 21, 2011, 06:17:16 AM »

You could turn the bbl down , port the reciver and lighten the bolt along with a light weight stock. Then you would have more in it than a new lighter Rem 700 .

yooper77 · « **Reply #16 on:** November 21, 2011, 09:27:10 AM »

I suggest most definitely leave your scope alone, since going to a 2-7x33mm scope will only ease up about one ounce. I feel you could re-bore/re-chamber your 30-06 Springfield barrel too 338-06 A-Square or 35 Whelen too take off some weight.

Then you will have would be a real show stopper at next year's deer camp

yooper77

Bart Solo · « **Reply #17 on:** November 21, 2011, 09:27:48 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on November 21, 2011, 06:17:16 AM

You could turn the bbl down , port the reciver and lighten the bolt along with a light weight stock. Then you would have more in it than a new lighter Rem 700 .

What do I gain if I do all that? My goal isn't to have more in it than a new lighter Remington 700. My goal is to have a lighter, easier to carry old Vanguard.

If my only goal was a new easier to carry rifle, I would buy a Tikka or a Savage 11 Lightweight Hunter for 1/2 the price of the Remington. The Vanguard would then rot in my safe. My goal is to improve my current rifle.

I read a lot of forums like this. A lot of guys brag that they have a lot of firearms, but they often concede that most of them sit in a safe someplace unused.. I too have a lot of firearms. Every one of them works for a living. None of them actually sits around collecting dust.

I believe in upgrading. I don't want to shoot just another rifle exactly like millions of others. I can't understand why anybody would.

Yooper, I have long wanted a 35 Whelen, but I am looking around for a 30-06 action with a shot out barrel. Maybe a Remington 700. I would then have it restocked and rebarreled in 35 Whelen.

The 35 Whelen comes after a 73 in 44/40 (to be used with black powder), a backup 73 in 357 shortstroked and tuned, a highwall in 45/70 and a 243 for my grandkids to use deer hunting. I deer hunt once a year but I cowboy shoot all year long.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #18 on:** November 22, 2011, 07:05:58 AM »

Quote from: Bart Solo on November 21, 2011, 09:27:48 AM

Quote from: SHOOTALL on November 21, 2011, 06:17:16 AM
You could turn the bbl down , port the reciver and lighten the bolt along with a light weight stock. Then you would have more in it than a new lighter Rem 700 .
What do I gain if I do all that? My goal isn't to have more in it than a new lighter Remington 700. My goal is to have a lighter, easier to carry old Vanguard.

If my only goal was a new easier to carry rifle, I would buy a Tikka or a Savage 11 Lightweight Hunter for 1/2 the price of the Remington. The Vanguard would then rot in my safe. My goal is to improve my current rifle.

I read a lot of forums like this. A lot of guys brag that they have a lot of firearms, but they often concede that most of them sit in a safe someplace unused.. I too have a lot of firearms. Every one of them works for a living. None of them actually sits around collecting dust.

I believe in upgrading. I don't want to shoot just another rifle exactly like millions of others. I can't understand why anybody would.

Yooper, I have long wanted a 35 Whelen, but I am looking around for a 30-06 action with a shot out barrel. Maybe a Remington 700. I would then have it restocked and rebarreled in 35 Whelen.

The 35 Whelen comes after a 73 in 44/40 (to be used with black powder), a backup 73 in 357 shortstroked and tuned, a highwall in 45/70 and a 243 for my grandkids to use deer hunting. I deer hunt once a year but I cowboy shoot all year long.

Then by all means do as listed and have a lighter old vangard .

Bart Solo · « **Reply #19 on:** November 22, 2011, 10:32:36 AM »

I did, and if I wasted my money, it's my money to waste but I don't think I wasted it. I don't think I will ever be able to sell the rifle for what I have in it, but I don't think I will ever sell it. If it does what I want it to do I will get good service out of it the rest of my hunting days.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #20 on:** November 22, 2011, 11:38:38 PM »

what did you end up doing and what was the weight reduction?

Bart Solo · « **Reply #21 on:** November 23, 2011, 10:04:44 AM »

So far just the stock. It should drop the weight about a pound. My Vanguard is 7.75 pounds without the scope. The new Vanguard 2 models are 7.2 pounds. The action and barrel on my Vanguard weigh about 5.3 pounds the new stock is about 20-24 ounces. So with the new stock the rifle should weigh about 6.6 to 6.8 pounds. I am thinking about shortening the barrel, but I am not sure that is necessary. I could save an ounce and 1/2 by moving from a 3X9 Leupold to a 2X7 model. I don't know why that is the case, but it is. Anyway with the scope and mounts my new rifle should weigh right at 8 pounds instead of 9 + or so. The new stock is kevlar/graphite. The action will be bedded.

I

hunt-m-up · « **Reply #22 on:** November 23, 2011, 01:19:15 PM »

Add a DNZ Game Reaper one piece scope mount to reduce weight in the mounts/rings?

Brithunter · « **Reply #23 on:** November 24, 2011, 04:34:37 PM »

Whilst I would go down the route your taking that is besides the point as long as your happy then really that is all that matters.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #24 on:** November 28, 2011, 01:48:41 AM »

I have both the leo 2X7 and 3X9 . The 2X7 is somewhat shorter . I find most of my shooting is on lower power as most is in the woods or short range making the @X setting more useful than the 9X . The more compact size also helps with balance. Before shorting the bbl. You might find porting the receiver . Also you can hollow out the bolt handle ( some guns come this way).

Bart Solo · « **Reply #25 on:** March 08, 2012, 09:30:51 AM »

I know this is an old thread, but I just thought I would report that the rifle returned from the custom stockmaker today. It looks great. I have to mount the scope and test it at the range, but it is significantly lighter than the rifle with the old stock. It should be easy to carry in the woods. If the bedding job is good, the rifle should still be a MOA rifle. Can't wait to test it.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #26 on:** March 08, 2012, 10:10:54 AM »

any pictures ?

Bart Solo · « **Reply #27 on:** March 08, 2012, 04:42:01 PM »

Here is a picture. I will upload something better when I get a chance.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #28 on:** March 09, 2012, 03:00:38 AM »

Bart Solo · « **Reply #29 on:** March 09, 2012, 03:35:16 AM »

I picked a simple Dakota style stock because I like simple. The gun is a working rifle so tough is more important than pretty. The stock is reenforced with kevlar and graphite and seems very solid. It should be very durable. It is significantly lighter than the injection molded stock I had. I think it will be a much easier carry. The one inch pad should help with recoil.

Now I have to sight it in. That will happen this weekend. I can hardly wait to hunt with it.

I had worried about MPI Stocks since I read a lot of things on the internet from people who bought their blanks, but everybody who bought a complete custom stock from them raved about the work. I agree, their custom work seems pretty darn good. It is sort of like having a lower cost custom rifle.

Maybe next winter I will find an action, rebarrel it in 35 Whelan and restock it myself. I want to learn a little about bedding. Right now I am pretty pleased with this rifle.