Author Topic: Best Starter Inline (Read 2682 times)

Hound_Dog55 · « **on:** January 11, 2004, 11:04:27 AM »

OK. Lets say someone wants to try muzzleloading. Taking into account price (lets go for low to midrange), action type, ease of use, reliability, warranty ect...

What would ya'll recomend and why?

This could be an interesting thread for all those thinking about muzzleloading.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #1 on:** January 11, 2004, 11:15:43 AM »

A Thompson Omega-- the easiest muzzleloader there is to start with successfully, maintain, shoot well, etc. This "start" may well be the last purchase some ever make.

Bob the Cynic · « **Reply #2 on:** January 11, 2004, 11:38:01 AM »

Easy to shoot, maintain and clean. The break open "shot gun" type action is very weather resistant, great gun for bad weather. It is also very easy to swap barrels so you shoot different calibers with the same gun if you are so inclined.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #3 on:** January 11, 2004, 12:00:16 PM »

From low to mid-range - - -

Knight Wolverine and the NEF H&R Huntsman has been almost universally acclaimed as excellent guns for the money. The Knight Wolverine would be my pick-- and the T/C Black Diamonds have a following as well.

Mid-range is tough to define, but the Omega and Austin & Halleck 320 fall into this area-- and are both excellent shooters.

The Encore may well be one of the most expensive muzzleloaders with great popularity, and it is one of the best in my opinion. The Knight Elite is the most accurate muzzleloader I've tested, and Knight's best rifle with a tapered barrel that really helps the balance. The Savage 10-ML-II Accu-Trigger is in a class of its own, and is a superior muzzleloader with non-corrosive smokeless. It loses its maintenance edge when fired with Triple 7 or Pyrodex, but still has a fabulous trigger, a completely sealed action, pillar bedding, and excellent accuracy. The more expensive Encore seems a handier BP gun, the lesser priced Knight Elite a better composite stocked offering. All three are superb muzzleloaders.

big6x6 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 12, 2004, 02:23:27 AM »

That's easy.. Knight Wolverine 209. A GREAT muzzleloader. Accurate and easy to clean. No-tool bolt removal. Minimal blow-back. Many stock option choices. For around $200.00 it can't be beat.

papellet · « **Reply #5 on:** January 12, 2004, 04:32:48 AM »

As a newbie in the Muzzleloader community I would recommend the Omega. I bought one after reading this board for some time and I couldnt be happier with it. As a new user I was overwhelmed with the learning curve to learn to load, shoot, and clean the rifle safely. The Omega greatly simplified this process. This might be the only muzzleloader I will ever need, its not, but could be.

jh45gun · « **Reply #6 on:** January 12, 2004, 05:29:23 AM »

I agree with Randy on the Huntsman by NEF great gun for the money wether it be a first gun, only gun, or back up gun. Easy to maintain and clean and shoots great. There may be better guns out there but not for the price or the accuracy these get. Jim

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #7 on:** January 12, 2004, 02:50:59 PM »

Quote from: Hound_Dog55

Taking into account price (lets go for low to midrange), action type, ease of use, reliability, warranty ect...

The the lower price category, I might as well mention the American Knight, that I've seen in the sub-$130 area.

It is essentially a Knight Wolverine with a non-adjustable trigger, hollow stick, plastic sights, etc., to get the cost out of it. Same action as the Wolverine, though, still a Green Mountain barrel-- and good enough for muzzleloading master Ian McMurchy to pop a Texas pig with a short while back, at over 300 yards. :shock:

HoCoMDHunter · « **Reply #8 on:** January 12, 2004, 02:53:55 PM »

I have been very happy with my Traditions E bolt 209. I think it cost about $150. Shot 1/2 inch groups @ 100 yards with the first bullet/ load combination I tried. With scope mount, rings, and a used scope the whole deal was less than $200. I really wanted an Encore but it was WAY out of my price range. Same deal with the Omega. I was never tempted by the Omega because it lacked the versatility of the Encore, but cost about the same.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #9 on:** January 12, 2004, 03:01:45 PM »

It was a rough time with our E-Bolt:

No other way to put it. The "cockonclose" action was "self-firing-on-close" as well, and still is.

jdman · « **Reply #10 on:** January 12, 2004, 04:49:07 PM »

Would that problem with the 209 E-bolt apply to my Lightning. I converted it last year from the #11 to a 209. This is the gun that shot the ramrod, and I figure anything that will hold together with that load must be built pretty good. Russ

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #11 on:** January 12, 2004, 06:10:59 PM »

We didn't test a bunch of them, but the fire on close was with a locally bought retail gun. Our E-Bolt 209 started firing itself when you closed the bolt-- no fun. This was at the range, with the gun pointed down field, so there was no "incident." But, in a hunting scenario before dawn-- it could easily be a problem, shooting out windshields, tires, or far worse.

Traditions was advised by telephone and e-mail-- no response. The gun was on a videotape we released, and I called it a "Disgrace To The Industry." Traditions was none too happy about that. Yet, amazing as it may sound, they never asked for the gun back-- it is still here.

The last tape released had a newer, 2003 "Evolution Premier" tested. It had no such problem, the action was now changed to cock on open. But, the porting that was supposed to reduce recoil didn't, and it kicked like a mule-- as well as being a pain to clean. It also had a horrible, creepy trigger. If they wanted to soften the recoil, I'd think they could at least pop on a real recoil pad.

So, I'm personally about as far from a "Traditions fan" as there is.

With articles like this, http://www.chuckhawks.com/unsafe_muzzleloaders.htm you can be sure that neither Traditions or CVA have much appreciation for me, either.

HoCoMDHunter · « **Reply #12 on:** January 13, 2004, 01:32:29 AM »

Interesting article. I had never heard of either of those problems. I checked my barrel and didn't see any proof marks on it. I didn't take the stock off though. My load has always been 100grains.

Can't say that I'm not concerned about the fire-on-close problem. It has never happened to me but you can bet I'll be extra careful about where it is pointing when I close it. Is the flame scorching the scope in the pic you posted normal for a ML? I have to clean those marks off of my scope. I didn't see it as a problem though.

Wolfhound · « **Reply #13 on:** January 13, 2004, 01:43:19 AM »

On a Traditions you have to take the stock off. If my memory serves me correctly it is near the recoil lug.

AllenRead · « **Reply #14 on:** January 13, 2004, 02:41:13 AM »

Randy, for the first time on this forum, I have to disagree with you.

You suggested the A & H 320 as a medium priced choice for a beginner.

This is a beautiful gun and shoots great. Unfortunately for a beginner it is very heavy and very hard to clean. Also, I've experienced problems with a weak hammer spring. Two other A & H owners at my gun club have also had similar problems with the spring.

This is a nice gun to have in the cabinet and shoot when failure to fire doesn't matter, but it's not a gun for a beginner.

The A & H stays in the cabinet when I go hunting.

My recommendation for a beginner is a Huntsman if cost is a big consideration, an Omega for a bit more money and an Encore if the funds are there.

Just my $0.02

Allen

HoCoMDHunter · « **Reply #15 on:** January 13, 2004, 03:01:27 AM »

Thanks Wolfhound. There it is. 700KP/cm2.
Not sure what to make of this. My manual isn't real handy at the moment and the powder capacity isn't stamped on the rifle, but I am fairly certain that it stated that it was OK up to 150 gr. I can't think of a new ML that doesn't advertise that number. I am not questioning Randy's math but I haven't been able to verify the pressure conversion.

Like I stated before, my experience with this gun has been 100% positive up to this point. But the management at Traditions is very foolish if the value stamped on the barrel is even close to their published max, let alone half. They are also downright stupid if they didn't ask for Randy's gun back.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #16 on:** January 13, 2004, 03:56:11 AM »

Quote from: AllenRead

You suggested the A & H 320 as a medium priced choice for a beginner.

This is a beautiful gun and shoots great. Unfortunately for a beginner it is very heavy and very hard to clean. Also, I've experienced problems with a weak hammer spring. Two other A & H owners at my gun club have also had similar problems with the spring.

The Austin & Halleck is long, and actually has a full 26" of usable barrel length from muzzle to breech-- the only guns I've tested that do. It feels heavy, but it is actually lighter than my Encore, Savage, and an Optima, on my electronic scale. I've found them to be extremely soft shooters as a result.

It does take an extra step to clean-- but it has a quick release bolt that helps out. The breech plug takes two steps, but just one bolt frees the entire barreled action. Due to its open breech, it is legal to hunt with in some western states where closed actions are not, and the standard 3 way ignition addresses that. I like the idea that it comes with a good, American made trigger, and things you don't normally buy a muzzleloader for-- like a good ramrod and manuals. By redoing all their manuals, the information is there to make a new shooter's experience relatively easy-- compared to the skimpy manuals provided by some companies that tell you very, very little.

The Weston, Missouri produced A & H's had a variety of QC problems, including weak hammer springs, sight problems. The "new" Austin & Halleck, div. of North American Arms, has really turned that around-- even though they have only been around for two years. Even though they didn't make the QC plagued Weston, Mo. guns, they have warrantied them all. As a result, it's like a new company-- and their sales jumped nearly 100% last year as a result.

No way would I have suggested the A & H of a couple years ago. But today, with the combination of soft shooting, excellent accuracy (in the three A & H's I've tested), and a new standard of quality control-- they are certainly worth a look. For those that like the look and feel of curly maple in an inline-- the 420 is the only game in town.

I suppose the distinction needs to be made between a new muzzleloading enthusiast, and a new shooter altogether. For absolute super easy maintenance, it is hard to top an Omega. There just isn't much to learn, or clean. For a bolt-action with a good trigger, that is legal in all 50 states, and shoots softly and well-- the Austin & Halleck is worth a look. They were surprising to me on several levels, but primarily just because they shoot so darn well.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #17 on:** January 14, 2004, 05:54:59 AM »

Naturally, I could not disagree more. Nobody "needs" a muzzleloader for subsistence today, much less more than one-- it is an elective pursuit.

It costs no more to scope, shoot, or clean a quality muzzleloader than it does an $83 special. If you buy an quality rifle, such as an Encore or Contender, it retains most of its resale value. Some have actually gone up in value, as was the case with my Omega.

There is little more frustrating than a cheap gun with a lousy trigger with a resale value of zero. There is nothing at all "bargain like" about something you have to buy twice.

big6x6 · « **Reply #18 on:** January 14, 2004, 06:06:39 AM »

"If you buy an quality rifle, such as an Encore or Contender, it retains most of its resale value."

GREAT point for buying at least the best one can afford. This includes not only muzzleloading rifles, but optics as well. Traditions seems to have the least resale value of all.

upnorth · « **Reply #19 on:** January 14, 2004, 10:55:54 AM »

sold my e-bolt after it ate the finish off my scope. called traditions..... response was " that was considered normal". SEE YA !!!!!!!!!!!! sold it at a loss too... but really couldn't care less. bought a used encore. best thing I ever did.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #20 on:** January 14, 2004, 04:03:58 PM »

Quote from: pitbull

I have shot up to 150 yrds with a 1" grps with my firebolt no problem.

That would indeed be rare. I've not had a CVA gun that could do better than 3" at 100 yards - - - and it was never easy getting there. Ian McMurchy's documented, independent tests revealed in excess of 3" average group size for his "expert" shooters-- with CVA product, and his "hunter" average group sizes for both CVA and Traditions guns were in the 4" area.

HoCoMDHunter · « **Reply #21 on:** January 14, 2004, 05:37:47 PM »

Sometimes, even with loose tolerances, a gunmaker gets it right. I guess I was lucky.
I wouldn't have a hard time selling my E-Bolt. I would only have to take it to the range for a demo to close the deal. I won't do that for a couple reasons. This gun has served me well--I harvested three deer with it last year. It has functioned flawlessly, even after a day of driving rain. I won't kid myself about that though. That is more likely a testament to the primer than to the gun. The primer is not totally enclosed.
But mostly, I could not in good conscience sell this gun without being totally open about it's potential flaws. As a result, I would not be able to sell it for what it is worth to me.
I'll keep using this gun. I was thinking about the fire-on-close problem. This is the kind of malfunction we should be prepared for any time we close the action on any loaded weapon. I'm not trying to excuse the inexcusable, this is simply good safety.
In view of the problems with the manufacturer not caring about the fire-on-close problem I could not recommend a gun from Traditions. If I was a manufacturer, I would be doing everything in my power to get to that gun and make it right. These guys are idiots for not taking care of this right away.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #22 on:** January 14, 2004, 06:59:29 PM »

Quote from: HoCoMDHunter

I'll keep using this gun. I was thinking about the fire-on-close problem. This is the kind of malfunction we should be prepared for any time we close the action on any loaded weapon. I'm not trying to excuse the inexcusable, this is simply good safety.

I certainly agree with you-- assuming your gun can always fire is just plain smart. BUT, the problem comes in when trying to follow the "keep your gun pointed in a safe direction" mantra in the field. Your gun may be in a sling on your shoulder-- is that direction really safe? If you really don't know where your bullet might land, it is hard to attest to that "absolute safe direction."

On certain hunts, climbing steep mountains, stepping in holes, slipping, sliding, tripping, jumping across moss covered rocks to cross little streams, I stumble more than a bit. Maybe I'm just clumsy? Anyway, when I'm carrying a cartridge rifle under those conditions, it is chamber empty. When I'm falling to my knees with a foot stuck in a grass-covered hole-- I don't know in what direction safe always is.

When in doubt, "decap your muzzlegun" is never bad advice.

Vanstg · « **Reply #23 on:** April 02, 2004, 05:09:10 AM »

Hello.
I've just joined this forum. Lots of good info here.
Just wanted to add my 2 cents. I have had luck with CVA. I have to CVA in-line rifles: an Eclipse and an Optima. I paid $180 for the Optima and $100 for the Eclipse. Both are .50 cal, 1:28 twist. The Eclipse has a 24" barrel, and the Optima 26". I e-mailed CVA and asked them what is the max loose powder charge I can shoot in those rifles with 240gr and 300gr saboted bullets. They said it's OK to shoot up to 120gr of loose powder. Nevertheless I think those Spanish barrels are just not made or proven to withstand "magnum" muzzleloading loads. Therefore I always keep my powder charges below 100gr. Actually I shoot mostly light charges (50 to 70gr of loose pyrodex and 240gr 44/50 sabots) for plinking and target practice. I'm very happy with my CVA rifles. Accuracy has been pretty good. The Optima has produced consistent sub 2" groups at 100 yards. It's very easy to insert/remove the 209 primer. And there's no blowback. The only thing I don't like is the trigger.
The Eclipse is more difficult to prime (a tool is required), and blowback is substantial. But it has a nice trigger. I haven't scope the Eclipse. But in spite of the plastic cheap sights, I've been able to shoot 2" groups at 50 yards and 4 to 5" groups at 100 yards. I'm sure the rifle is doing better than my eyes, and those groups would be better with a scope.
I haven't had the same luck with Traditions, though. I have a side-lock Traditions rifle, .50 cal 1:48 twist. The trigger is terrible, and no matter what I shoot, this rifle won't yield good groups. I tried patched round balls, Buffalo conicals, T/C maxi-balls, T/C sabots, cast .44 cal bullets with Hornady sabots. Tried powder charges from 35 to 90gr. Nothing works. The best 100 yard group ever was 4". Usually they are 5" or worse, even with a scope.
I thought about buying a Traditions bolt action in-line once. But when I handled the rifle at the store I just hated the cock-on-close design.
Next time I buy a ML rifle, I'll probably go for a higher quality rifle. I though about getting a T/C Black Diamond like a million times. But I like so much better the break action and pivot block designs for their ease of priming, and absence of blowback. That means my next buy will be an Omega or Encore.
Vanstg

Wolfhound · « **Reply #24 on:** April 02, 2004, 05:33:28 AM »

Quote from: Vanstg

Hello.
I have had luck with CVA.

My first muzzleloader was a CVA. I've never had so many problems with a gun. But hey, if you like yours that's what counts.

Quote

I e-mailed CVA and asked them what is the max loose powder charge I can shoot in those rifles with 240gr and 300gr saboted bullets. They said it's OK to shoot up to 120gr of loose powder.

Really? That's very odd since their max loads are 100 gr. in loose powder.

Quote

Nevertheless I think those Spanish barrels are just not made or proven to withstand "magnum" muzzleloading loads. Therefore I always keep my powder charges below 100gr.

Good for you. I don't know if they're tested or not either. CVA doesn't want to talk about it.

Quote

Next time I buy a ML rifle, I'll probably go for a higher quality rifle. I though about getting a T/C Black Diamond like a million times. But I like so much better the break action and pivot block designs for their ease of priming, and absence of blowback. That means my next buy will be an Omega or Encore.

I can personally vouch for the Omega. Mine is a damn fine rifle.

Vanstg · « **Reply #25 on:** April 02, 2004, 07:35:32 AM »

From what I hear some people love their CVA's, some people hate them. Probably there's much variation from gun to gun. Some come out good, some don't.

wpayne · « **Reply #26 on:** April 02, 2004, 10:56:27 AM »

I bought my Omega in December and couldn't be (much) happier. This is my first muzzleloader and I have had NO problem cleaning and caring for it, it is really "too easy".

For a beginner, I don't think you could get much better for any price. I'll buy a Savage (or other smokeless) someday but for my first m/l I think I made the right choice.

I could have bought a CVA and hunted last year but I knew what I wanted and saved for it, saved all the way through muzzleloader season in fact.
I'd encourage someone else in my position to do the same, you won't be disappointed.

tscott · « **Reply #27 on:** April 02, 2004, 11:20:40 AM »

I wanted to get into muzzleloading 3 yrs. ago. I decided to go cheap,
since I mostly hunt. Bought CVA Staghorn outfit for $150. At 50 yards
I was stunned by the accuracy. I shoot 2 50gr pyrodex pellets, with 295
powerbelts... Never back to the range. I have shot 3 fine bucks in the last
3 years.... none took a step! I added a Huntsman to my 45 / 70 frame,
I think for $80... What a treat... better accuracy still... went with 90gr 777
powder.. rest the same... Shot a buck with it 11/16/03... Both are a piece of cake for me to clean... In a bonehead move on the Staghorn, I scored the breech plug threads.. I sent it back to CVA, they chased the threads
gave me a new breechplug that I didn't need and turned it around in a week for $14.50... They had to have lost money servicing a $99 gun..
Now you know my next deal will be their break open gun...

contendernut · « **Reply #28 on:** April 02, 2004, 02:49:20 PM »

I've owned the Encore, Knight Wolverine, Knight Elite and a White. For an inexpensive gun, I would buy the Wolverine. Knight has exellent service. I overnighted a trigger group to them and had it back the day after I shipped it. They did the trigger job free and overnighted it back to me the same day they recieved it. T/C also has has always given me great service.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #29 on:** April 03, 2004, 01:59:05 AM »

Quote from: contendernut

I've owned the Encore, Knight Wolverine, Knight Elite and a White. For an inexpensive gun, I would buy the Wolverine. Knight has exellent service.

It's a very hard one to beat; same barrel quality, trigger quality, and (depending on model) excellent synthetic stock quality as the most expensive Knights-- for sub $250 (or sub $200 for some models).

And-- it sure costs no more in powder, range fees, bullets, hunting tags, or to scope than many other smokepoles. I think Wolfhound and Big 6 x 6 will agree with you.