Author Topic: Vote Now (Read 3609 times)

williamlayton · « **on:** September 16, 2011, 02:35:46 AM »

I guess am having an attack of wonderment. There have been no post in this forum for awhile.
I know that I am opinionated--as are many here.
Is my apperance and posting on this forum unwelcome?
I will abide by the majority.
Blessings
Bill Close

YES
NO

These are the only things I want to know---please do not post commentary.

BBF · « **Reply #1 on:** September 16, 2011, 06:49:04 AM »

I'm confused, what exactly are you asking or what the vote is for and yes, I can be dense at times.

reliquary · « **Reply #2 on:** September 17, 2011, 01:51:01 PM »

I'm going to disregard your request not to post a comment, so that I can be sure you get the message: You're one of the mainstays of this site and your comments are always welcome, as far as I'm concerned.

pastorp · « **Reply #3 on:** September 17, 2011, 03:07:54 PM »

Well Bill, you got a right to post on any topic you want to since your a member of GBO in good standing..

A lot of your posts in this topic doses not agree with my thinking, But then I have never considered Texas a southern state. You have your own culture and viewpoint and it's not southern like the true southeast states.

Your a southern want-a-be....Just my opinion.

Regards,

Dixiejack · « **Reply #4 on:** September 17, 2011, 03:53:54 PM »

William, you fire some pretty good fodder for discussion. I'm from Georgia, way in the Deep South, and I tend to agree with a lot of your thoughts. If people would do their research, they would see the Civil War was not all about slavery. Also, the Yankees didn't take over Florida until the middle 70's----- (1970's).

williamlayton · « **Reply #5 on:** September 17, 2011, 11:41:31 PM »

Pastorp
I tend to think most folks are wannabe Texans.

Blessings

reliquary · « **Reply #6 on:** September 18, 2011, 03:44:38 AM »

Pastorp:

I'd be interested in having you expound further on why you think Texas is not a true Southern state. This is the first I've ever heard of that one. That rattling sound you hear in the background is my Confederate-veteran family members rolling over in their graves.

Are you like the little old grey-haired lady who said to me, when I was stationed in Petersburg, Va, "I find Texans to be rather crude in most of their aspects, unlike OUR well-bred ancestors"? I reminded her that, from what I had read, her ancestors seemed glad to see the Texans come try to save their aristocratic a***es in the 1860s.

Never got an answer to that one.

williamlayton · « **Reply #7 on:** September 18, 2011, 10:06:29 AM »

Actually, Pastorp is correct. Texas IS a different culture.
Lets look at the make-up in 1860. The first four tiers of counties (basically)in East texas were Southerners, born and bred & were the majority of the consolidated population.
Moving West are all of the old school Texans, Those who never lived in the US. Now I am painting with a fairly broad brush here for there are certainly findings of discrepancy. These are the Checs, Germans, Austraians, Poles and Hungarians who came into Moses Austin's land grants given by the Spanish Government.
Those folks were not as enamored with slavery or any of the FEELINGS the South had twoards the USA.
Sam Houston was actually impeached as governor of Texas for refusing to sign a loyalty oath towards the South. He went out of office saying the South was going to get teir tail handed to them on a silver platter. Lots of Kentucky, Tennessee boys in the stae at the time.
There was actually a bunch of Germans/Checs in the Hill country who formed a Union brigade.
Spanish texans were not particularly enamored with it either.
You must remember that Texas was an actual Nation for 10 years and for 20 years before that were pretty independent.
East texas was the only portion of the state tied to slavery---and they were tied to the institution as was the rest of the South, but won't confess to that fact.
The west and the Southwest, in particular, are a bunch of honest hard working INDIVIDUALS, honest and plain spoken. They just don't care if you like them or not---but they will help out in times of need even if there are particular hard feelings.
Blessings

reliquary · « **Reply #8 on:** September 18, 2011, 01:22:28 PM »

I agree with your analysis of Texas' widely varied culture. I'm 5th generation Texan; some of Dad's folks walked from the Carolinas and settled here in East Texas in the 1820s, and we've been here since. But a difference in culture doesn't make us not-Southern.

Louisiana has as diverse a culture as anyone, yet are they not Southern? West Virginia seceded from Virginia and mostly fought for the Union, yet are they not Southern?

Georgia was founded as a prison colony and gave birth to Jimmy Carter, but I still claim them as fellow Southerners.

Southern is a "state of mind", as far as I'm concerned. "Texas, by God", is unique among all the states...I will stand with you on that.

Dixiejack · « **Reply #9 on:** September 18, 2011, 04:33:40 PM »

reliquary, I am not trying to start an argument, but being raised in Georgia I'm just curious what your definition of Southern "state of mind" is.

sidewinder319 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 18, 2011, 05:18:47 PM »

This whole thing sounds strange. I am more southern than you? Am I a southerner? Is Texas in the south? Being a westerner we see North and South as Easterners. In the west it makes no matter if you are from New York or Alabama you are from the East. We do not call people names like Yankee or Redneck all of which would not be the "Cowboy Way". We like to think we are all Americans and we all bleed red to protect our one nation.

Spirithawk · « **Reply #11 on:** September 18, 2011, 05:49:12 PM »

What? Texas not a Southern state? Wasn't it the last stronghold of the Confederacy? I know the last battle took place there;

The last battle of the American Civil War was the Battle of Palmito Ranch in Texas on May 12 and 13.

Pretty proud of this......The last significant Confederate active force to surrender was the Confederate allied Cherokee Brig. Gen. Stand Watie and his Indian soldiers on June 23.

SouthernByGrace · « **Reply #12 on:** September 19, 2011, 04:18:33 AM »

Spirithawk, you are sadly mistaken about General Stand Watie.
He was indeed the last Confederate officer engaged in a major battle, but he did NOT surrender. He did sign a cease-fire agreement, but that is NOT a surrender, it is a cessation of hostilities. Had the Union forces not adhered to the cease-fire, for any reason, General Watie would have been within his full rights (and capabilities) to reengage the enemy. A surrender would have made that impossible. Although the outcome is very similar (fighting has stopped), the two are NOT one and the same.

In a surrender, you would generally give up all means by which you could wage war. Your troops are either taken prisoner or sent home, as was the case with General Lee. In a cease-fire, you are merely telling the other side, "Ok, I'm not going to shoot at you right now, so long as you don't shoot at me, so we can get a handle on things." You still have the full capacity to keep waging war (troops, weapons, etc.), but you've decided not to.

It is for this reason that General Watie is so highly regarded in the South, especially among SCV members. He is considered among the Great Generals of the War.

SouthernByGrace

DEO VINDICE

Spirithawk · « **Reply #13 on:** September 19, 2011, 06:05:03 AM »

Ya know, you're correct. That info was burried in my mind, it just was lazy coming to the surface. The info I had posted was simply copied from wikipedia as I was busy at the moment and somewhat hurried. I was just thinking of correcting it when I saw your response. Thanks.

reliquary · « **Reply #14 on:** September 19, 2011, 07:33:58 AM »

Hey, Dixiejack...I learned, in my 48 years of marriage, the futility of arguing. If I sound demagogic, it's because I tend to be plain spoken and it sometimes doesn't come across, in writing, as I intend it. Here goes an attempt:

Southerners are, in general, socially and religiously conservative. We tend to value individualism and self-sufficiency. We respect anyone who is willing to fight for a cause, even if it turns out to be the wrong cause. Our beliefs are deep and our memories are long. We revere the land and its stewardship and ownership. Then there are our unique dialects and social customs. We are proud of our country and our states. We want to mind our own business, have others mind theirs, and everyone leave us alone. We want small government, common-sense laws & very few of THEM, honesty and decency in everyone, especially public officials. Every man is a gentleman and every woman is a lady until he or she proves otherwise.

What did I forget here....? Does anyone else want to give it a shot?

I forgot where this quote is from: "The South can be found anywhere Southern culture is found".

reliquary · « **Reply #15 on:** September 19, 2011, 07:44:49 AM »

I'm having trouble with getting everything I want to say in the box. This is FWIW:

I am the late-life son of a late-life son of a Confederate. In case you lost count there, my grandfather (1847-1911) enlisted at age 17 and fought in the Red River campaign, as well as in Arkansas and southeast Texas. He surrendered in Hempstead, Tx, in May 1865, and neither he nor his brother in Hood's 4th Texas ever took the Oath of Reconstruction. His youngest son was born in 1889 and died in 1958. I am that man's youngest son, born in 1943 and still kicking as of this moment.

Their graves have military markers furnished by the US VA, which I find terribly ironic, because they read CSA instead of USA.

My dad and all four of his sons served in the US Army; I did a full career from '66-86. We are proud of all our military heritages.

Dixiejack · « **Reply #16 on:** September 19, 2011, 11:29:00 AM »

reliquary, I think your definition pretty well summed up most Americans regardless of geographical location, except for most of our politicians and the executive branch, and throw in the majority of the judicial branch.

Both my great grandfathers fought for the Confederacy. One was shot in a skirmish just in South Carolina, brought home to recoup and two weeks later was found by a Union patrol, dragged out of bed and into his front yard and shot. The other was captured, shipped off to Elmira, which was as bad as Andersonville, and held captive for two years after the war because he was a professional saddle maker before the war. Neither owned slaves, but answered the call to war.

It is amazing how people think of other geographical areas. I have an older brother who lives in Arkansas. On several visits, I met some of his friends who still refer to Oklahoma as the "territory". I asked why, since Oklahoma is a state and got a reply from one lady who said, "Well it's Oklahoma's state of mind."

I could go on, but I asked you a question and your answer is pretty much what I expected and happy to hear.

williamlayton · « **Reply #17 on:** September 19, 2011, 01:50:31 PM »

Reliquary
You are close to being kin.
Blessings

SouthernByGrace · « **Reply #18 on:** September 19, 2011, 06:11:01 PM »

Quote from: reliquary on September 19, 2011, 07:44:49 AM

I'm having trouble with getting everything I want to say in the box. This is FWIW:

I am the late-life son of a late-life son of a Confederate. In case you lost count there, my grandfather (1847-1911) enlisted at age 17 and fought in the Red River campaign, as well as in Arkansas and southeast Texas. He surrendered in Hempstead, Tx, in May 1865, and neither he nor his brother in Hood's 4th Texas ever took the Oath of Reconstruction. His youngest son was born in 1889 and died in 1958. I am that man's youngest son, born in 1943 and still kicking as of this moment.

Their graves have military markers furnished by the US VA, which I find terribly ironic, because they read CSA instead of USA.

My dad and all four of his sons served in the US Army; I did a full career from '66-86. We are proud of all our military heritages.

Very well put, reliquary. That's almost a copy of my heritage, too. I am only 45 and my father was the youngest child out of 17, himself being born in 1940. He had two sisters born before 1900. His father was born in 1876 (age 64 when my dad was born), and was the youngest out of 15. His dad (my great grandfather, and the youngest out of 16) enlisted in 1864 at the age of 15. Co. H, Georgia Militia was merged with several other Companies and sent North to fight under General Lee just two weeks before General Sherman came through Southeast Georgia. His two oldest brothers (25 & 27) were home recovering from severe wounds from the War (one had his jaw shot off, the other had a shoulder mutilated) when Sherman literally kidnapped them from their homes. These two men were bedridden and were absolutely no threat to anyone. They were on the last 90 miles of the march to Savannah when one died of his injuries because Sherman refused either one of them medical treatment. The other one made it to Savannah and was put on a train and sent to Point Lookout POW Camp. He survived and returned home after the War.

We have verified at least 49 ancestors who fought for the Confederacy and we have never uncovered any evidence of even one signing an Oath of Allegiance after the War. We have our family history documented back to the year 1140, so it's not from the lack of knowing how to look for it.

It is extremely rare for someone my age to be only 3 generations removed from the War. All my friends from school are 5 or 6 generations removed. Two are 7 generations, and one is 8. And Non-Southerners often wonder why we don't just "Let it Go?"

So we're kind of cut from a similar cloth. In terms of the generations and age, you would be the equivalent of my father, who, like you, was a late-life son of a late-life son of a Confederate.

SouthernByGrace

reliquary · « **Reply #19 on:** September 20, 2011, 05:52:13 AM »

Thanks, guys, it's always good to hear from "family by choice".

While I was on temporary duty at an American base in England in 1986, one of the local Brits asked me, "How are things in the Colonies these days?"

I thought he was trying for humor, but it appeared to me that he was entirely serious, so I gave the same answer (as best I could recall) that Steve McQueen gave in "The Great Escape": "Pretty well, now that we've kicked out the British."

Granddad had some harrowing experiences in The War, according to those things he verbally passed on to Dad. He only wrote a couple of short statements in order to allow Grandma to (eventually) apply for a pension. As I told someone else on another thread, I don't think anyone who goes through a war and an occupation by a hostile power is ever completely normal afterwards.

Dixiejack · « **Reply #20 on:** September 20, 2011, 02:17:57 PM »

I talked to my older sister who is our family historian, if our great grandfather mentioned in his diary, which surprisingly his captors let him keep while while held captive for two years after the war, if he was offered his freedom in exchange for signing any paper. She found a brief entry where he refused to sign a confession that he was a criminal trying to overthrow the U.S. government (to that effect) and he refused. That was the reason he was held captive for the additional two years before he was released.

I have read several treatise on Elmira POW "camp" and from what I gather it was as bad as Andersonville. I took a friend of mine from Wisconsin to Andersonville and he found the grave of a great uncle who was killed in the Civil War and is buried there. It is a National Cemetery now and is still actively interring U.S. military. There were 3 funerals being held the day we were there. It was a very emotional experience.

The Hermit · « **Reply #21 on:** September 20, 2011, 06:09:34 PM »

William, I have several relatives who fought in the Civil War and were wounded. They were from NY. I guess you can't be more Yankee than that.

I make a point of reading your posts in this forum as well as others. I tend to agree with you a lot. I find sometimes when I post that I don't always convey what I really want to say, which sometimes offends others. At, 76, I don't let it bother me anymore as I know my intentions are good.

Please continue to post. If you don't, I promise to ship a box of snow to you as we are due for some soon, I'm sure.

The Hermit

williamlayton · « **Reply #22 on:** September 21, 2011, 01:24:50 AM »

Hemit
The Close's came to Galveston in 1837 from near Ithica, NY.
The Layton's, Bakers, Cannon's, Spence's, Eppersons & some others dropped in from all over. Two or three of them were in Texas in the 1820's.
Who in the world can claim any amount of racial purity.
Blessings

reliquary · « **Reply #23 on:** September 21, 2011, 11:28:06 AM »

Williamlayton-

I just sent you a PM with a genealogical question.

sidewinder319 · « **Reply #24 on:** September 21, 2011, 06:13:58 PM »

Not a student of the Civil War. I keyed on the Standing Waite story. I did not know that the NDNs took their slaves on the Trail Of Tears? I have never read about this. The slaves must have suffered greatly during this march. Why are the slaves who made this trek never mentioned? The story you posted also mentioned that the Cherokee murdered every black they encountered even the wounded. Why did the NDN troops murder the blacks? This may be a well known story by all of you who are avid students of Confederate Military history. Being a westerner I have never indulged in the Civil War. So bear with me. Thx

Dixiejack · « **Reply #25 on:** September 22, 2011, 08:01:40 AM »

Sidewinder, this link <http://ourgeorgiahistory.com/indians/cherokee/trail_of_tears.html> predates the War of Northern Aggression, but should give you some insight on Indians in Georgia who had their property stolen from them and what let up to the "Trail of Tears." from a Georgia perspective.

subdjoe · « **Reply #26 on:** September 22, 2011, 02:10:11 PM »

You may want to check out this thread on a different subforum: http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,239726.0.html

Quote from: sidewinder319 on September 21, 2011, 06:13:58 PM

Not a student of the Civil War. I keyed on the Standing Waite story. I did not know that the NDNs took their slaves on the Trail Of Tears? I have never read about this. The slaves must have suffered greatly during this march. Why are the slaves who made this trek never mentioned? The story you posted also mentioned that the Cherokee murdered every black they encountered even the wounded. Why did the NDN troops murder the blacks? This may be a well known story by all of you who are avid students of Confederate Military history. Being a westerner I have never indulged in the Civil War. So bear with me. Thx

sidewinder319 · « **Reply #27 on:** September 22, 2011, 04:57:05 PM »

Subdjo, Thx for the up date. You seem to really be well informed on the Civil War. I would like to know why the Cherokee killed all the blacks they encountered? I am sure there is some reason for this. I tried looking this up but only found a reference to Ft. Pillow[I think not sure].

Ga.windbreak · « **Reply #28 on:** September 22, 2011, 06:18:53 PM »

No I will not inject any personal response by voting on something which is way over the top as an off topic thread.

IMVHO it should have been deleted from the getgo.

Now as to the post,in said thread, they are quite interesting and have my full support.

Those comments are what this forum is all about an honest study and research into the historyof our great nation.

As to willie's little poll I will only add the forum was standing and doing well before he came, was asked to leave and promised Greybeard he would no longer grace the forum by his presence yet has returned and now appears to be asking us to vote if he should leave again, how cute. The Forum will grace these pages long after he and many of us are dead and buried as well it should for 600,000 of our brothers paid the full measure and that real fact should never be forgotten. It is why we are all here today.

He has a world of info that he could clearly share and often does, in this mode he is a most aggreeable and respectful person, he has his quirks as do we all.

Never the less any person's staying or going imho is not and should not be the subject of a poll on this forum. This forum is about the History, a very important part if I may say of our southern way of life and should NEVER be trivialized in this way!

subdjoe · « **Reply #29 on:** September 22, 2011, 07:10:58 PM »

Quote from: Dixiejack on September 20, 2011, 02:17:57 PM

I have read several treatise on Elmira POW "camp" and from what I gather it was as bad as Andersonville. I took a friend of mine from Wisconsin to Andersonville and he found the grave of a great uncle who was killed in the Civil War and is buried there. It is a National Cemetery now and is still actively interring U.S. military. There were 3 funerals being held the day we were there. It was a very emotional experience.

Check out "80 Acres of Hell" about Camp Douglas. Also look up Point Lookout Prison. All had deliberate policies of starvation, brutality, lack of medical attention, withholding of clothing and blankets, and so on. And the federal government, with its huge and well stocked supply system had no excuse for starving POWs. Andersonville, on the other hand, was in the hands of an ill equipped and undersupplied Confederate commisariate. If you do just a bit of digging you will see that most of the atrocities committed there committed by the POWs on other POWs.

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Author Topic: Vote Now (Read 3609 times)