Author Topic: 45/410/444 Question (Read 2260 times)

Westwindmike · « **on:** August 23, 2011, 01:08:07 PM »

I'm a new Contender owner and have a question. I regularly shoot shotshells made from .444 brass in my regular .410 shotgun. They do a great job and I don't have to have a dedicated loader for 410 shotshells. When I try to shoot my .444 shotshells in my 45/410 barrel, they don't always fire. When they don't, the primer is not even scratched, so I know the firing pin didn't hit. When I load .45 Colts in the same barrel, they shoot every time.

So, is the thicker rim of the .444 brass keeping the barrel from closing completely and therefore not pushing in on the thing that the locking lugs press on to let it fire? If I "snap" the barrel closed vigorously, it will sometimes fire, but not if I close it slowly.

Thanks for any advise that you might have. I really like using the .444's, but if I have to switch to real 410's I will.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #1 on:** August 23, 2011, 01:31:50 PM »

Yes,
The gun is chambered foir 45 Colt and 410. Using other calibers in it may danage you or the gun.
Same as you can not chamber 45 Colt in your 444 gun.
Remember back in kindergarden when we had the different shaped pegs and the differetn holes in a box or bench. Ammo is the same way. Generally you want to stick the square peg in the square hole. Sure the round peg find in the square hole but.
There are some interchangabilities in the gun world, what you want to do is not one of them.

dant · « **Reply #2 on:** August 23, 2011, 03:15:18 PM »

To answer the question that you asked. yes, it may be the slightly thicker rim of the 444 brass that is causing the problem. It's probably preventing the interlock from working and not letting the gun close completely. Your 444 brass isn't much smaller than the 45 colt in base diameter and a lot of people use that brass to do just what you are doing. The tolerances of your 410 shotguns are probably greater allowing it to work. If the rim thickness is truly your problem it could be corrected by removing a few thousanths off the FRONT of the rim, not the rear as that would change the depth of the primer pocket. Just make sure that they're used only for shotshells and NOT for 444 Marlin loads as after being modified in this manner they'll probably misfire in a 444 chamber.

butchen · « **Reply #3 on:** August 23, 2011, 03:25:16 PM »

just so I know (it will not help you, this is for my own ideas) what do you use to plug the end to keep the shot in the cup? and if you would, could you PM me and tell me what your doing with the shells. I have some ideas of my own on this and have been thinking of trying it. Thanks...

oh yea I think dant is dead on about what to do but be sure to get off the case side of the rim not the primer side.

Westwindmike · « **Reply #4 on:** August 23, 2011, 03:38:24 PM »

butchen,
I am using a 7/16 hollow punch to make over shot wads out of thin cardboard (cereal box). I then use a drop of Elmers glue to seal and hold it in place. They work well.

dant,
How would I go about removing a few thousanths from the front of the rim? Thanks.

butchen · « **Reply #5 on:** August 23, 2011, 03:51:35 PM »

I have a great idea for just this. Thanks so much.

Westwindmike: I will let you know if the idea works.

DEACONLLB · « **Reply #6 on:** August 23, 2011, 04:06:56 PM »

You can buy brass 410 00 buckshot 3 inch in length that in Bear brand made in Russia you could use them and that would take care of your problem.They are sold as home invasion loads at most Gun shows.

Deaconllb

Westwindmike · « **Reply #7 on:** August 23, 2011, 04:31:37 PM »

Deacon,
I looked those up just now. Trouble with them is they are Berdan primed and not easily reloadable. Good idea though.

Westwindmike · « **Reply #8 on:** August 23, 2011, 05:04:58 PM »

I just looked up the drawings on the .444 and .45 Colt. The rim on the .444 is only .003 thicker than the .45 Colt. I measured the depth of a seated primer on the .444 and it is .013 below flush on the rim. What would be the downside to taking off .003 from the back side of the rim versus the front? We're only talking the depth of the headstamp and the primer will still be .010 below the back of the rim. The modified cases would be easy to identify.

Comments?

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #9 on:** August 23, 2011, 05:55:37 PM »

The primer pocket is X deep and made for th primer to sit flush in the case. If you trim off some your primer may stick out and you could have a couple slam fires as you close th gun.
I remember seein 410 reloadable brass hulls, with 20, 12, and 10 ga shells. I will check anbd see what catalog I found them in and get back to you.
But you would need a 410 reloader so whay not cut the expense and just get some Win AA or Rem hulls and reload the plastic?
I am a big fan of the MEC sizemaster reloadeds but the primer drop tube is too large to fit in the 410 hull so why not just get a MEC JR for a little under $100 bucks (last time I looked they were ) and reload. I really think it may be easier to reload the shot shell than trimming the brass or loading brass hulls.

Westwindmike · « **Reply #10 on:** August 23, 2011, 06:13:39 PM »

woodduck,
I would love to have a MEC 600 JR, but they are $181 OTD here. I've been unemployed for quite a while and I have to try and make do with what I have. The reloadable brass are about a dollar a piece. Once again out of my budget.

If I take off .003 from the back of the case and the primer is still .010 below flush, there is no way to get a slam fire. I'm going to try one tomorrow and will report my results (good or bad) here.

If someone can tell me how to take the .003 off the front of the rim, I'm all for that too.

redneckdan · « **Reply #11 on:** August 24, 2011, 05:51:24 AM »

to take it of the front of the rim you'd probably need a lathe to do it well. On the head you can do it with a file. Some bench rest shooters attempt to square up the head of a case and remove about the same amount of material you are talking about. If slam fires are a potential issue pistol primers might be a option.

Westwindmike · « **Reply #12 on:** August 24, 2011, 08:56:08 AM »

Progress Report

Well I took measurements of the rim, compared it to the 45 Colt rim and decided to take off .003. Slow work with a fine file took about 5 minutes. File, measure, file, repeat. I then seated a Large Rifle primer and measured the depth below the surface of the rim. It was still .008-.009 below the rim. No slam fire possible there. I then loaded it in the Contender and closed it very slowly. Now the locking lugs snap locked with a very definate click. Cock and fire. Bang! Fires every time now. I marked the case heads so I would only use them in the Contender.

Conclusions

This mod does work, but takes too long to modify a case. If I had a method to take the metal off quickly, I would just do about 50 of them once and be set for life on cases. As it is, I may just have to shoot regular 410's until someone comes up with a quick mod for the .444 cases.

Thanks for all your help.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #13 on:** August 24, 2011, 02:11:04 PM »

can you just load the 410 brass on a regular loading press??
using 444 or other loarding die

does any one make a 410 die set for a regular metalic reloader??

Westwindmike · « **Reply #14 on:** August 24, 2011, 02:48:31 PM »

There are no dies or loader needed for these. All you need is a way to deprime them and reprime them. I use a 45-70 size die to deprime and a Lee priming tool to reprime. Powder goes in followed by an overpowder wad or a 410 plastic wad, shot and then an over shot wad (glued in place). I've been loading #8's in it and it works good on clay birds (or squirrels, rabbits, etc).

As I understand it, same goes for the 410 brass shells. No resizing necessary.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #15 on:** August 24, 2011, 03:04:32 PM »

i have the lee universal deprimer
just used it today on 45-70s...that shell holder should work fine
think i wll head over there and try it on some 410s

i use the lee hand held auto prime??

Westwindmike · « **Reply #16 on:** August 24, 2011, 03:11:15 PM »

The Lee hand held is what I use on .444's. On the 410 brass shells, I don't know. The 209 primers are too big for the Lee.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #17 on:** August 24, 2011, 04:26:24 PM »

45-70 was too big #8

444 shellholder was too small #11?
shell holder for colt 45 #11? or #14? didn't have one [but i will]

#5 worked
punched primer....sorta.....partially
spent an hour getting it out of the shell holder
ended up using a pounch and hammer over a pair of pliers

on a most i punched a big primer......on a few few only a small primer came out
i seated a large handgun primer just out of curiosity...it fit

Austin from NC · « **Reply #18 on:** August 24, 2011, 08:09:16 PM »

if you have a vise you could line up several on each side of the one you filed. Cover the one already filed with a marker and using even motion file till you start to scratch the marker off. Just a idea though, don't know if it will work.

Austin

Hank08 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 25, 2011, 08:13:27 AM »

Westwindmike, Your TC must really lock up tight. I have 4 frames and they all work fine with the .444 cases. You could take a hair off the top of the split loaking lugs or get another set of lugs from TC, this is something that gunsmiths do regularly to fit barrels to frames when they are too tight. I use .444 cases for shooting .45 bullets from 45/410 chambers, gets the bullets up close to the rifling, much better accuracy, this would sure beat filing cases. Back in the days of metalic silhouette shooting (everyone used contenders) a rep from TC would come around with a big case of locking lugs of various sizes and would give us ones that would lock up properly. Best to use a stone rather than a file to reduce the lugs. Check if your gun has the old solid lugs, if so, call TC and they will send new split lugs free, that may be all you need.
H08

Westwindmike · « **Reply #20 on:** August 25, 2011, 08:39:53 AM »

Thanks for that idea Hank. I tried something new today. I drilled a hole the size of the case in a pine board. Used it as a guide/case holder for using my belt sander on the case head. It worked pretty well. If I can just get about 25 of these done, I'll be happy.

Glad to hear that other people here shoot the .444 case in their 45/410 barrel. I was thinking I may have to repeat kindergarten. (See post #2).

butchen · « **Reply #21 on:** August 25, 2011, 01:16:01 PM »

I been trying the board thing too like we talked about and even using it to make my length like we talked about. It works good but the plug is not working (I Know you said it wouldn't. I do have an idea or two.) OH and I have just made six so I can get the bugs out first. Thanks again for the idea.
ButcheN

jem44357 · « **Reply #22 on:** November 28, 2012, 10:56:46 PM »

Good info!

Camba · « **Reply #23 on:** December 08, 2012, 10:09:18 AM »

Check the link below for tthe 410 brass hulls from MagTech sold by MidwayUsa:
http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/151679/magtech-shotshell-hulls-410-bore-2-1-2-brass-box-of-25
Camba

Westwindmike · « **Reply #24 on:** December 09, 2012, 10:18:48 AM »

That is over a dollar a piece plus shipping. For the small amount of shooting I do with this barrel, I think I'll keep using the .444 cases. They are working well. Thanks.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #25 on:** December 10, 2012, 10:12:25 AM »

Quote from: Camba on December 08, 2012, 10:09:18 AM

Check the link below for tthe 410 brass hulls from MagTech sold by MidwayUsa:
http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/151679/magtech-shotshell-hulls-410-bore-2-1-2-brass-box-of-25
Camba

what type of primer do they use??

do you need shotsell reloader or regular press??

i have never loaded shot shellls....other than speer capsules in 38 and 44

jjvw · « **Reply #26 on:** December 19, 2012, 12:47:30 AM »

I use 9.3 x 72R brass to make 3" shells for 45's or shot loads. They need to be fire formed and take a large rifle primer. Expensive but you will never wear them out and don't need resizing or trimming. They use standard shot cups, no top wad. Just dribble candle wax over shot.