Author Topic: 45/70 vs 12 Gauge Slug (Read 10580 times)

Jimbo47 · « **Reply #60 on:** July 14, 2011, 02:59:48 PM »

Quote from: bikerbeans on July 14, 2011, 09:36:27 AM

Quote from: Sourdough on July 12, 2011, 07:45:29 PM
I still want to take a Grizzly with a .17HMR

SD,

Seems like a waste of powder, wouldn't a .17HM2 be enough cartridge?

BB

When you go out with the .17HMR be sure to take a buddy with you that you are sure that you can outrun!

45-70.gov · « **Reply #61 on:** July 14, 2011, 04:27:32 PM »

how about a thread

45/70 vs 12 Gauge Slug..........if i were backing up some one with a 17hmr hunting grizzly

Sourdough · « **Reply #62 on:** July 14, 2011, 06:55:29 PM »

Guys, I probably will never do it. If I did I could not let anyone know, since it is not legal to use anything but center fire for Bears. The shot I would take would be either in an eye, or in the back of the skull. Attempt to hit the brain stem, or that area of the brain. I've killed Moose with that shot using Speer TNTs, out of a 30-06 Handi, single shot kill.

The last Grizzly I shot, first shot through both lungs, complete pass through. Bear ran 75 Yards, before a second shot hit the spine. Rear legs were out of commission but it was crawling around with the front ones looking for me.

Black Bears are considered far more dangerous than Grizzlies. If a Grizzly knows you are coming or are in the area, they will usually fade away. Black Bears will hide to see what you are. Spook a Grizzly and you are in big trouble. Spook a Black Bear and they will run. If a Grizzly charges, stand your ground. Most times it is a false charge. The Grizzly will stop a few yards out and turn and leave. If it does slap you, then maul you, if you play dead they will usually leave you for dead and leave the area. If a Black Bear charges, it is looking to kill something and eat it, period. Black Bears are more predatory than Grizzlies.

A friend (Air Force NCO) had to shoot a Black Bear in the face a couple of weeks ago. He was up in my old tree stand near the Yukon. Same one I got ran out of by a couple of Black Bears a few years ago. Same thing a black Bear climbed up into the stand with him. This Black Bear was coming after him. He shot it point blank in the face with a .44 Mag. Bear fell out of the tree, got up and ran off. He and his partner looked for several hours, never did find that bear. Personally I don't think they really wanted to find it. They were both pretty shook up over it the next day when they told me about it.

This information I have gathered from personal experience, and from many friends that have been Bear Biologist for Alaska Dept Of Fish and Game. Also from a few Bear Hunting Guides, and a few real old Sourdoughs.

Some of you will remember this. For you new guys, here is a funny/scarry story for you. OK, I cannot get the paste function to work. You are going to have to search.
Title: Blackbear climbed into our tree stand
Date Posted: March 12, 2004
Posted by: Sourdough

Ganjiro · « **Reply #63 on:** July 14, 2011, 08:30:43 PM »

Quote from: jlwilliams on July 12, 2011, 01:50:09 AM

Still waiting on the OP. Is this a hypothetical question or are you going fishing and these are the guns you have to choose from? Why is the question limited to those two rounds from break open singles?

Aloha guys, Nah strictly hypothetical food for thought. More interested in your feelings on the ammo (45/70 vs 12ga. Slug) more so than the firearm but I love my Handis so I thought limiting it to a single shot would make for more interesting discussion focusing more on the ammo since you only get one shot. I own both a sporter SMLE in 45/70 (5 rounds) as well as a model 1300 Winchester pumpgun which holds 8 rounds. Would definitely prefer either one of these to a single shot. I also own a model 44 Taurus which really likes hot 300 grain handloads. This gun would never leave my hip even while holding one of these long guns when in bear country. I lived in bear country of north central Idaho but only ran into black bears, nothing bigger though griz were known to inhabit those mountains. I've shot at and dropped large charging boars but of the pig variety, not sure how my nerves would hold up at something 3 times bigger.
I've been to Alaska once many years ago but would like to return one day to fish the streams for salmon & trout. Would also like to hunt for Ptarmigan (for some reason).

Thank you gentlemen for all your input.

Spencer, Carey · « **Reply #64 on:** July 15, 2011, 05:46:22 AM »

I wana know more about that S.M.L.E. 45-70! #1MkIII, #4MkI? Who did it? Pics? I killed my very first deer with a #1MkIII in S.C. and traded it off in my misguided youthfull exuberance. Loved that rifle. Only my second centerfire weapon behind a H/R Topper 20 ga., and an 1897 Sweed in 6.5. Really like to know more about that rifle sir!

schuetzen · « **Reply #65 on:** July 15, 2011, 06:00:33 AM »

Quote from: Spencer, Carey on July 15, 2011, 05:46:22 AM

I wana know more about that S.M.L.E. 45-70! #1MkIII, #4MkI? Who did it? Pics? I killed my very first deer with a #1MkIII in S.C. and traded it off in my misguided youthfull exuberance. Loved that rifle. Only my second centerfire weapon behind a H/R Topper 20 ga., and an 1897 Sweed in 6.5. Really like to know more about that rifle sir!

There is an SMLE 45-70 that has been showing up on gunbroker for a while. It says Navy Arms Enfield 45/70...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=240756288

S.E.Ak · « **Reply #66 on:** July 15, 2011, 09:14:51 AM »

Navy Arms used to sell them as one of their cowboy special guns.I wonder how well the bolt face will hold up with some of the hot 45/70 stuff out there.

Ganjiro · « **Reply #67 on:** July 15, 2011, 12:20:54 PM »

Quote from: Spencer, Carey on July 15, 2011, 05:46:22 AM

I wana know more about that S.M.L.E. 45-70! #1MkIII, #4MkI? Who did it? Pics? I killed my very first deer with a #1MkIII in S.C. and traded it off in my misguided youthfull exuberance. Loved that rifle. Only my second centerfire weapon behind a H/R Topper 20 ga., and an 1897 Sweed in 6.5. Really like to know more about that rifle sir!

It was put together by Gibbs Firearms which if I recall correctly was a subsidiary of Navy Arms, and run by Val Forgett's son. From what I gather Navy Arms had a stockpile of various SMLE actions, and Brazilian made 45/70 barrels so Forgett had the two put together, trimmed down the fore stocks to a sporter profile, and added special magazines for the 45/70, labeled it the "Gibbs Frontier Rifle", and sold a bunch of them. Mine is built on a 1941 vintage #1MkIII Lithgow action but I have seen them built on #3MkI actions. A friend in Oz very graciously gifted me a Australian design SMLE target sight which though a tad bulky for the field is intricately adjustable, and of excellent quality. I have been happy shooting a 400 grain cast plain base load at 1400 FPS but I know guys that shoot hot loads out of these with no problem. I just love this rifle, very comfortable shooting with my relatively low velocity loads. I have a box of hot Buffalo Bore ammo but saving these for my future wild cattle hunt on the Big Island of Hawai'i.

With my cat Misha

Aussie SMLE target sight

Here's a series of videos of guys shooting hot Garrett 45/70 ammo in their Gibbs Frontier Rifle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXkGWRqoq2U&playnext=1&list=PL93D54E167725EF22

Squib · « **Reply #68 on:** July 15, 2011, 12:42:39 PM »

that sight would be rediculous for the range even... what kind of "rediculous" groups does it allow though, and to what range?

Spencer, Carey · « **Reply #69 on:** July 16, 2011, 03:52:23 AM »

Very, very cool. I understand the mixed feelings on that sight too. Probably functions really well, but awfull big isnt it.? 400grns. at 1400 isn't exactly smoking hot, but like you say, does just fine. Sounds like a good moderate load that penetrates well and doesent destroy the whole front half of the animal. I'd like to have one of those. Are they still available? If so, I will start saving my pennies!!

Thanx for the feedback and the pics!

mannyrock · « **Reply #70 on:** July 16, 2011, 05:45:08 AM »

When I saw your rifle plus cat photo, I honestly thought that this was a trophy photo, and that you had bagged a cat with your rifle. WOW, I thought, this guy really really loves the .45-70. :-)

gcrank1 · « **Reply #71 on:** July 16, 2011, 06:35:16 AM »

Very cool target sight!
That is quite a rifle, I had never been aware of them (darn, that means I missed another good deal way back).

PAPI · « **Reply #72 on:** July 16, 2011, 09:21:56 AM »

Code: [Select]

 I still want to take a Grizzly with a .17HMR (Death Wish according to the wife, 
She says go ahead, she makes sure my life insurance is paid up).

Hey Sourdough ,
It's not a ".17 " but has lots of potential for penetration, for a smallbore !

PAPI

MSP Ret · « **Reply #73 on:** July 16, 2011, 11:10:04 AM »

I highly recommend Dixie Slugs for dangerous game with a shotgun. A great product and great people. Old fashioned integrity, great quality, and outstanding customer service....look into thier TriBall loads while your at it....<><....

http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html

Squib · « **Reply #74 on:** July 16, 2011, 12:23:06 PM »

Quote from: mannyrock on July 16, 2011, 05:45:08 AM

When I saw your rifle plus cat photo, I honestly thought that this was a trophy photo, and that you had bagged a cat with your rifle. WOW, I thought, this guy really really loves the .45-70. :-)

me too, I was laughing till I read that it was just sleeping

... so disappointed!

mechanic · « **Reply #75 on:** July 16, 2011, 12:32:10 PM »

Quote from: Squib on July 16, 2011, 12:23:06 PM

Quote from: mannyrock on July 16, 2011, 05:45:08 AM

When I saw your rifle plus cat photo, I honestly thought that this was a trophy photo, and that you had bagged a cat with your rifle. WOW, I thought, this guy really really loves the .45-70. :-)

me too, I was laughing till I read that it was just sleeping ... so disappointed!

I don't think it would have looked so good if it had been shot with a 405 gr.......

Maybe ears tail and feet left?

Ben

Ganjiro · « **Reply #76 on:** July 16, 2011, 07:13:15 PM »

Quote from: mannyrock on July 16, 2011, 05:45:08 AM

When I saw your rifle plus cat photo, I honestly thought that this was a trophy photo, and that you had bagged a cat with your rifle. WOW, I thought, this guy really really loves the .45-70. :-)

Either that or he REALLY hates cats.

Nah, Misha the wondercat likes to get into all my pictures.

Ganjiro · « **Reply #77 on:** July 16, 2011, 07:18:48 PM »

Quote from: gcrank1 on July 16, 2011, 06:35:16 AM

Very cool target sight!
That is quite a rifle, I had never been aware of them (darn, that means I missed another good deal way back).

You can still find them on Gunbroker & Auction Arms occasionally, and usually at decent prices. Just save the search and they'll email you as soon as someone lists one up for sale.

Squib · « **Reply #78 on:** July 16, 2011, 07:41:08 PM »

I read on here about a guy using a muzzleloader on squirrel... I think he really was dedicated to vermin hunting. then again repacking a load would get you warmed back up in the cold, so late season I guess it makes sense? I have a buddy at work that shot a rabbit with a 50 alaskan once. red and pink in the snow, little tufts of fur in the air.

surehuntsalot · « **Reply #79 on:** July 26, 2011, 07:15:50 PM »

without a doubt it would be the 12ga loaded with some of the hard cast, deep penetrating slugs out there
at close range nothing else comes close for stopping power

45-70.gov · « **Reply #80 on:** July 27, 2011, 04:47:25 AM »

Quote from: 45-70.gov on July 14, 2011, 06:04:25 AM

i would carry buck shot

and go for head shots only

nothing but a central nervous system hit will stop immetiately something that big

that eye socket only has to be on the edge of the pattern....instant lights out
will OOO penetrate a bear skull??.....i don't know

seems like a higher probabilty of getting lucky that way....
.than a lucky spine shot thanks to good penetration

how far does a bear run with a good hit other than CNS??

i am just speculating................never seen a free roaming bear or a shot one

i all probability you will CARRY this gun and not use it

the 12 ga shorty would be the lightest and most ''handi''

there are other threats out there too.....rabid coon, otter, etc.....wolf

most will be better dealt with ,with buck shot.......or even bird shot

gcrank1 · « **Reply #81 on:** July 27, 2011, 05:41:20 AM »

With that in mind, I wonder if a pump with the first up the spout being buckshot, followed by slugs might be a good idea? If you did have to shoot off the hip at a bear it might get it's attention like a batch o' bees giving you just long enough to jack in the followup slug.
The news of late about the 'scouts' who were attacked when they took a griz by surprise (or was it really waiting for them?) is spot on for this thread. Apparently it happened so quick that one was down and the rest scattered in panic. BTW, panic is a survival instinct, standing and fighting a superior foe is not 'natural' to most of us in this culture.

S.E.Ak · « **Reply #82 on:** July 27, 2011, 02:56:15 PM »

What ever you use your first shot will be the best shot so make it count. Note you can not shoot downward through a eye and hit brain,not humans and not bears. A very large bears head will be about three and a half feet off the ground and the only way to hit brain is above eye socket.Watch a few U-Tube charging bear vids and you will see what I mean.What folk use is up to them along with what info they use to decide

45-70.gov · « **Reply #83 on:** July 27, 2011, 07:33:12 PM »

what about a spine shot behind the skull??

like hitting a fast armored snake.... easier to do with a shotgun

but will OOO penetrate the spine at that angle

and how hard is the skull of a bear to penetrate??

i have seen #1 completely penetrate a human skule at 90 yards

S.E.Ak · « **Reply #84 on:** July 27, 2011, 08:51:50 PM »

They are fast and the hardest part is lead as you are on different levels.A little squat and shoot at the nose or more exposed front shoulder has worked so far but town problem bears have always been in the wide open not pucker brush.If you ever watch rodeo some stock does what they call roll hop or sunfish and sometimes a bear does the same thing at the start of the charge which gives a perfect shot to take out one or both shoulders with a step on your part.Of course all bets are off if a person don't have a clue its comming and ten yards out.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #85 on:** July 28, 2011, 05:56:59 AM »

'Pucker brush'!
I LIKE that.

PAPI · « **Reply #86 on:** July 30, 2011, 11:48:52 AM »

A possible alternative to using the " Slug " or " 00 / 000 Buckshot " @ very close range.... ?
DIXIE TRI-BALL

Code: [Select]

The .600"-320 gr. ball has 5.9 times the mass of the .33"-54 gr. #00 buckshot! 
Penetration is based on mass/velocity. This becomes important on game like a 
large boar hog. Therefore, based on actual facts, there is no comparison between 
the Super X #00 buckshot load and Dixie Slugs Tri-Ball 3"!

http://www.dixieslugs.com/images/Dixie_Triball_vs.pdf
PAPI

streak · « **Reply #87 on:** July 30, 2011, 05:35:40 PM »

Quote from: PAPI on July 30, 2011, 11:48:52 AM

A possible alternative to using the " Slug " or " 00 / 000 Buckshot " @ very close range.... ?
DIXIE TRI-BALL
Code: [Select]
The .600"-320 gr. ball has 5.9 times the mass of the .33"-54 gr. #00 buckshot! Penetration is based on mass/velocity. This becomes important on game like a large boar hog. Therefore, based on actual facts, there is no comparison between the Super X #00 buckshot load and Dixie Slugs Tri-Ball 3"!
http://www.dixieslugs.com/images/Dixie_Triball_vs.pdf
PAPI

That`s a big "10-4"!

Spencer, Carey · « **Reply #88 on:** July 31, 2011, 05:52:41 AM »

I'd still go w/ the 45-70, gut those are really really interesting. If they pattern, you may have just shown me the replacement ammo for my buckshot gun!

45-70.gov · « **Reply #89 on:** July 31, 2011, 06:08:37 AM »

the work in my 410