45/70 vs 12 Gauge Slug

[Dinny]

Thanks, I found them now.


http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=132180


http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/5-rds-D-Dupleks-Hexolit32-12-ga-2-3-4-Hollow-Point-Steel-Slugs-1-1-8-oz-1410-FPS.aspx?a=730865&pm2d=CSE-SPG-3-GOOGLE&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cse




Thanks, Dinny

[gstewart44]

Fishing in Brown Bear country and all you have to choose from for bear medicine is either a Handi in 45/70 with 500 grain load @ 1500 FPS or a Pardner in 12 gauge loaded with 3" 1-3/8oz (600 grain) premium slug load (1500 FPS) which would you prefer.  I don't want other suggestions just a choice between these two, and why.      Thanks.

  Is this a hypothetical or a planned trip?  Well,  given ONLY these two choices for an Alaskan fishing trip, and these are the only choices of firearms, I would postpone the trip until I had allocated the funds for a reliable revolver in 454 Casull.    Why ?    Last time I went fishing it was a two handed proposition, and in moving water steadiness and balance come into play.  That ballet of rod and body becomes more tedious and tiring having to sling a 5 to 7 pound longarm.   also should you actually NEED to employ a firearm it will likely be on short notice.   Your scenario involves ditching your fishing rig, then bringing the long gun into action.  Precious seconds will be used that you cannot afford to give.   If a brownie decides to charge you while you are fishing and toting one of your two choices, my book is on the bruin.   

[gcrank1]

Either will do the job, and as always, one picks the ammo for the animal.
Neither in a sgl shot would be my choice, because I know that under an attack senerio I might miss with the first shot or 'need' multiple hits to break down the critter. Your shots may indeed kill it, but will they do so before it kills you? This 'breaking down' is exactly why professional hunters use multi-shot guns. No guarantee of a second, or third shot, but with the single it is almost a guarantee of only one.
I dont have a 45-70 Guide Gun, but I do have a 'police style' 12ga. pump that I would use and not feel any less at risk.

[streak]

I know S.E.Ak lives in Alaska and has had encounters with bears. How about the rest of the poster`s on this subject?
 
I have been to Alaska several times and have seen my share of bears out hunting, especially caribou hunting. Actually have seen bears laying on top of gut piles from caribou that were shot the day before! Naturally gave them a wide berth!!
 
Some of the hunting situations that I encountered in Alaska were in thick alders and if a bear decided to mount an attack in that situation I think a single shot 45-70 Handi or a single shot 12 ga with a slug  would probably not be to successful in stopping the bear. The speed of a bear hell bent on doing you harm is fast and furious! Now if you can have the nerve and quickness to place a shot from either gun and hit the CNS then you might have a chance to survive. Bearing in mind you are going to be in thick surroundings and eye sight to be probably obsecured partially by leaves,etc., chances of being able to shoulder and sight the weapon, fire it, is going to be somewhat compromised.
Just food for thought! probably your best chance in this scenario if you are sticking to the single shot only idea is to have a good load of 00 Buckshot in the single shot shotgun.
 

[S.E.Ak]

A thing about bears is untill they are still comming at ten yards you don't know for sure if its a bluff or real charge and it makes a difference when fileing your DLP report. In the real thick stuff like tag alders you will be lucky to get any kind of gun up and able to swing on target let alone two or three shots and this includes drawing and aimming a handgun


If you were anywhere but the road how many shots could you get off

[DaveW]

I would say going in to Browny country with a single shot rifle or shotgun would be foolish. I would pack a multiple shot high powered rifle AND a powerful handgun....either a 44 mag or 454 casull or bigger. This way even if I set my rifle down to cast I would still have a gun close to hand. I don't think you could be too heavily armed for a charging brown bear. Even with multiple hits he just might kill you anyway. Leave the singleshots at home. BUT....if I had to choose I would take my 45-70 loaded with some of my "hot loads".

[S.E.Ak]

Streak if you can hit it with buck a slug would also hit and do much more damage.

[gcrank1]

This thread brings to mind a paraphrase of the old joke:
What do you call a guy slogging through the tag alders with a sgl. shot in one hand and a fly rod (and stuff) in the other?
Bear bait

[PAPI]

Hey All,
I posted this info on another website a few years ago (8/5/2008)!

After reviewing the " Data " in the " Safety in Bear Country " tech Report .. !
" We selected a distance of 15 yards as the " point of no return " - the distance at which an obviously aggrassive bear must be stopped or a person risks personal injury or death... "

I'm a bit perplex " Why ", the " Shotgun Slug " scored so low (26) ??

The " 458 Winchester Rank # 1 ", with both the 375 H&H & the 338 scoring very high.

Now,take a look at how many inches both the "375 & 338"  penetration 14.2 / 16.8 (Chart Table 1 ; pg# 5)
http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152

375 H&H: Ranked (3/5/10): Based on load & Bullet tested.
338 Win Mag: Ranked (4/6/7/8/9): Based on load & Bullet tested.

12-ga x 2 3/4 inch: Ranked (26) : Peneration (15.3 inches): Barrel Length (20)

Large-Caliber Magnum Rifle(pg#4)
Cartridges.458 Winchester Magnum.
In overall ballistic performance, the .458 ranked first. Bullet penetration was the deepest of all the cartridges tested  ** average depth, 19 inches **. Striking energy was 79 percent of the .460 Weatherby (ranked second), part of which may be attributed to the extra 10 gr of bullet weight in the .458. The bullet expanded well (4.6 times) and retained 82 percent of the unfired weight.

Shotgun Cartridge: (pg# 10/11)
12-Gauge x 2 3/4 Inch Chamber. 
The variety, rapid-fire potential, and reasonable prices of 12-gauge repeating shotguns with short barrels and the impressive appearance of the l-ounce (438-gr) rifled slug have made this combination popular as a weapon against bears. The slide-action shotgun with a short barrel is relatively light and compact, has good pointing characteristics and a large magazine capacity, and can be fired rapidly. Recoil was similar to that of weapons firing small-caliber magnum rifle cartridges. In our tests, the 12-gauge rifled slug did not have a high overall rank because of the relatively low striking energy and the lack of bullet expansion. *** The lack of bullet expansion is somewhat misleading. *** The unfired rifled slug is 0.672 inch in diameter (0.355in2 area); the 1.7x expansion ratio increases this to a cross-sectional area of 0.62 square inch, which is only slightly smaller than that of the expanded bullets of the .458 Winchester and .460 Weatherby magnum rifle cartridges. The penetration of the rifled slug was good (**15.3inches**), and only 4 percent of the unfired weight was lost. "


Summary of Technical Data:
1.) The " Shotgun Slug " didn't expand & it was only slightly less than the diameter of an expanded " 458 Bullet " .

2.) The Shotgun Slug penetrated as well as 94 % (six were slightly better) of the Rifle Cartridges, which ranked higher. (review pg #5)

Conclusions:
Based on the information provided by the " U.S Forestry Service " .. I wouldn't hesitate carrying a " Shotgun " as a Protective Measure, against Bears or Mountain Lions, at short ranges with Shotgun Slugs ". And using something with better performance in a " SHOTGUN SLUG " (** DIXIE SLUGS **)
PAPI

There has been some new development & improvements in " 45/70 Bullets " & " 12 Gauge Slugs ".. from then vs today.
 
All of the below "Bullets & Slug" would "Penetrate better", than those tested in the report published by the "U.S. Forestry Service".
1. Dixie : 12 Gauge Slug
2. Garrett
3. Buffalo Bore
4. Belt Mountain Enterprises: New Punch Bullet
5. Cutting Edge Bullets:New Non-Conventional Solids (large metplat surface) & Hollow Point
6. North Forks: Non- Conventional Bullets; Cup Point Solid
 
My personal choice would be the " Dixie " in a 12 Gauge Slug (870 Rem)...And , don't overlook the " Dixie Tri-Ball " !
 
However, I wouldn't feel undergunned, using the " Non-Conventional 45/70 (458): North Forks or Cutting Edge Bullets " (Marlin). 

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,123415.0.html
 
PAPI

[Spencer, Carey]

Sir, i'm gonna have to go with the 45-70 simply because the cased ammo is more water resistant than the slug loads. Waterfowl shotgunshells for example are sealed, but the open face of the slug cartridge may fail to keep out water if submerged during a wade, or slip, or any number of other things that happen in bear country. Food for thought.

[geezerbiker]

I didn't think about water contamination...  You can seal your rounds with fingernail polish diluted 50/50 with mineral spirits.  Dab a tiny drop around the primer and let it flow then do the same around the seated bullet.  Let dry and they'll be as well sealed as anything the military uses...

Tony

[PAPI]

I heard ( read ) some guys used " Indian Head Gasket Sealer " for " Bullets & Primers ".

http://automotive.hardwarestore.com/90-558-gasket-sealer/indian-head-shellac-gasket-compound-613357.aspx
I've used the stuff before, but only for auto gaskets. I would thin it a bit & make sure to clean off any " Bullet Lube / Sizing Wax " on any areas , before applying.
PAPI

[quickdtoo]

This thread brings to mind a paraphrase of the old joke:
What do you call a guy slogging through the tag alders with a sgl. shot in one hand and a fly rod (and stuff) in the other?
Bear bait poop!!

[streak]

Streak if you can hit it with buck a slug would also hit and do much more damage.

True S.E.Ak! With the operative word being "if"! A load of 00 Buck is also devasting at extremely short range and coud be shot from the hip without having to sight down the barrel as you would with a single slug to be sure that you would hit a part of the bear that would kill him as a shot to the CNS would do.
Also I have read where the weapon of choice most of the time for bear protection on Kodiak Island is the 12 ga  pump with buckshot if memory serves me right.

[geezerbiker]

I've never been to AK, but the 2 friends I have that are from there say the locals skip the magnum calibers and hunt bears with shotgun slugs.   Take this second hand info for what it's worth...

I have to admit those steel slugs from Latvia look wicked to say the least.  I don't have a need for any but you can bet your A$$ that I'm going to buy at least one box...

Tony

[schuetzen]

I have to admit those steel slugs from Latvia look wicked to say the least.  I don't have a need for any but you can bet your A$$ that I'm going to buy at least one box...

And you can tell the tree huggers that the steel slugs are enviro-friendly.  The bears won't get lead poisoning! 

[S.E.Ak]

Streak if you can hit it with buck a slug would also hit and do much more damage.

True S.E.Ak! With the operative word being "if"! A load of 00 Buck is also devasting at extremely short range and coud be shot from the hip without having to sight down the barrel as you would with a single slug to be sure that you would hit a part of the bear that would kill him as a shot to the CNS would do.
Also I have read where the weapon of choice most of the time for bear protection on Kodiak Island is the 12 ga  pump with buckshot if memory serves me right.

I believe it will be slugs for the penetration.Those little balls give up fpe very fast and at best will wound the bear.At ten yards the spread on buck will be about six to ten inches shot from the hit meaning the slug would hit the center of the spread and hopefully pass through the bear. What I've seen with buck it won't even break the first bone it comes to.For DLP you want to bust down both front shoulders at the shot getting you time to clear your head or shorts and reload for the finish if needed.Lots of locals hunt the big bears with rounds like 270,308 and 30-06.Many a kid up here has taken their first with a 243.No one would try to push a wounded bear out to the open with a 243 though. I have truely never known anyone up here that has carried buck insted of slugs. Where I live if a bear is wounded it a problem for all that live here and we try to get it sorted out in quick fassion.We also count a wounded bear as the person bag for the year and on our Island its their bear for the next four years before his next try

[jlwilliams]

  Still waiting on the OP.  Is this a hypothetical question or are you going fishing and these are the guns you have to choose from?  Why is the question limited to those two rounds from break open singles?

[OldSchoolRanger]

I have to admit those steel slugs from Latvia look wicked to say the least.  I don't have a need for any but you can bet your A$$ that I'm going to buy at least one box...

And you can tell the tree huggers that the steel slugs are enviro-friendly.  The bears won't get lead poisoning! 

Glad to see someone is thinking about the health of the bears. 

[Sourdough]

Of the two guns mentioned, which ever one you feel the most comfortable with.  Both will do the job if you do your part.  Black Bears aren't that hard to stop.

Now that said, I live in Grizzly country.  We've got three sows with cubs running around our neighborhood right now.  I'm sure there is a boar or two in the neighborhood as well.

I usually carry a shotgun loaded with either slugs or #4 or larger Buck Shot.  With Buck Shot, I try for a head on shot with the nose as my target.  That way I am pretty sure of getting at least one shot through an eye, or up the nasel passage and into the brain.

I carry a 45-70, or a .35 Whelen, if I am going out hunting.

I still want to take a Grizzly with a .17HMR (Death Wish according to the wife, She says go ahead, she makes sure my life insurance is paid up).     

[Squib]

will a little .17 bullet actually get through an eye or the throat BEFORE exploding?  I'd be scared to take a neck shot on a thick skinned anything, don't know about bear eye balls though... is that your plan?

[OldSchoolRanger]

I still want to take a Grizzly with a .17HMR (Death Wish according to the wife, She says go ahead, she makes sure my life insurance is paid up).     

You a better man than me, for sure, Charlie Brown! 
Can I take out a life insurance policy on you too?

All kidding aside, Why?

[S.E.Ak]

Sourdough can skin a griz in 30 minuets just useing his fingernails,tuff old bird for sure to stay liveing in the cold part of the great land.

[gcrank1]

Yeah, tough.......
now riding about with the top down, sun shinin' in, soakin' to the bone........

Even Black Bears are deceptive too, they have the size, and generally slow moving, 'ponderous' look that we dont realize how quick they actually are and how fast they can cover ground. Its a lot faster than me! Then when I get tired and/or hot my responses and reactions are slowed way down. By the time I knew what was happening in tag alders its likely Id be bear b(oops, poop). How many times has a grouse flushed near, flown AWAY, and you still miss him with a scattergun because.....
Now throw in it is actually a charge by something farther up the food chain than you are.
Yep, I want a short, fast handling pump or even auto loader and luck (or better yet, Angels of God).

[45-70.gov]

i  would carry buck shot


and  go for head shots  only


nothing but a  central nervous system  hit will stop  immetiately something that big


that  eye socket  only has to be on the edge of the pattern....instant  lights out
will  OOO penetrate a bear  skull??.....i don't know


seems  like a higher probabilty  of getting lucky that way....
.than  a lucky spine shot thanks to good penetration


how far does a bear run  with a good hit  other than  CNS??


i am just speculating................never seen a free roaming bear  or a shot one

[gcrank1]

Starin' eye to eye with a bear backed into a corner at 10ish feet in heavy growth and tangled 'cut-over' will give a guy pause for thought.........
I had a .43 cal. caplock muzzleloader with a squirrel load in hand; kind of a 'moment froze in time' from 1830ish to date.
We both lived to tell about it  .

[S.E.Ak]

Bear chargeing head low stright out brain is above eye so no real damage done with buck.Good slug eye shot travels down through neck and starts messing with things.Note that 99% of hunter bear maulings we read about the hunter had a bolt gun so nothing is perfect but a propper first shot with a good bullet is a great start

[bikerbeans]

I still want to take a Grizzly with a .17HMR

SD,
 
Seems like a waste of powder, wouldn't a .17HM2 be enough cartridge?
 
BB

[STUMPJMPR]

12ga slug.  I shot a 250 pound hog with one.  He hit the grround so fast I never saw him go down.  Furthermore, the early brittish safari rifles were usually large caliber smoothbore rifles with ballistics similiar to a 12ga slug.  According to something I read on Dixie Slugs a while back single shots were considered dangerous game rifles.  They may be a little slower to load, but they do not malfunction easily.    However, 3-4 misses with a high powered bolt gun isn't much better.  Remember the video of the man who shot and wounded a lion.  When it charged he fired a few more shots missing everytime. 

[gcrank1]

Always a good idea to remember "a man's got to know his limitations"........