Author Topic: 45/70 vs 12 Gauge Slug (Read 10627 times)

Ganjiro · « **on:** July 09, 2011, 07:20:03 PM »

Fishing in Brown Bear country and all you have to choose from for bear medicine is either a Handi in 45/70 with 500 grain load @ 1500 FPS or a Pardner in 12 gauge loaded with 3" 1-3/8oz (600 grain) premium slug load (1500 FPS) which would you prefer. I don't want other suggestions just a choice between these two, and why.

Thanks.

Dinny · « **Reply #1 on:** July 09, 2011, 07:38:43 PM »

That's a tough one, but you didn't mention anything about how the bullets are constructed. Are they both lead or jacketed bullets? If both are lead, I would go with whichever one has the hardest lead.

---or----

هذا سؤال صعب ، لكنك لم تذكر شيئا عن الكيفية التي شيدت الرصاص. هم كل من الرصاص أو الرصاص تغلف؟ إذا كانت كل من الرصاص ، وأود أن تذهب مع أي واحد قد يؤدي أصعب.

Thanks, Dinny

quasne.inc · « **Reply #2 on:** July 09, 2011, 07:41:30 PM »

I dont have any personal experience in this area but I would think the slight edge would go to the heavier wider projectile if the velocity is the same.

Couger · « **Reply #3 on:** July 09, 2011, 08:25:18 PM »

The 12 gauge load reminds of Remington's 3" Buckhammer load with a 1 3/8 oz (602 grains) .72 caliber lead slug, that generates more than 3200 foot-pounds of muzzle energy.

However I believe its listed at 1900 feet-per-second of muzzle velocity.

Also Winchester offers another 3" load that slightly better, shooting a saboted 385 grain .50 caliber Partition bullet at around 1900-2000 fps and give more than 3400 foot pounds ME!

If the 12 gauge load and .45/70 both shoot at the same MV of 1500 fps, go with the HARDER projectile! If both loads are equally "HARD" by all means choose the "heavier load." So says simple physics!

Spanky · « **Reply #4 on:** July 09, 2011, 09:51:40 PM »

Whichever one you can reload the fastest.

Spanky

Squib · « **Reply #5 on:** July 09, 2011, 10:23:01 PM »

45-70 jacketed projectile, brass case. medium to high pressure depending on how you load it... I like hornady interlocks at that speed/weight out of my handi, FWIW. I've shot them into logs at 500grs and found them on the ground offside at 480grs, jackets splayed open but little mass lost... I don't know that heavy bone could do worse to them.

I assume your shotgun round is not a metallic cartridge, high-pressure round... probably soft lead that will break-up on impact and have terrible accuracy (also the shotgun platform wasn't mentioned in detail, but that's usually a detractor for accuracy). you know energy dump on a bear is useless if it's not past the skin?! bears have thick skin, underlying fat, and very heavy muscles and bones... if a lead slug breaks up without passing INTO the upper chest FIRST then you are in trouble.

geezerbiker · « **Reply #6 on:** July 09, 2011, 11:02:12 PM »

I'd go with a sabot solid copper slug. It will penetrate deeper and hit harder.

Tony

Ganjiro · « **Reply #7 on:** July 09, 2011, 11:07:45 PM »

I was thinking the Brenekke Gold Magnum loads which are hardcast http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/37894-1.html
versus a 500 grain hardcast flatnose plane base bullet like the Meister Cast @ 1500 FPS http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productnumber=443079 SO both loads are hardcast. Total weight and muzzle energy advantage goes to the 12 gauge slug but sectional density of projectile advantage goes to the .45/70 bullet.

bikerbeans · « **Reply #8 on:** July 10, 2011, 06:24:28 AM »

Quote from: Ganjiro on July 09, 2011, 11:07:45 PM

I was thinking the Brenekke Gold Magnum loads which are hardcast http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/37894-1.html
versus a 500 grain hardcast flatnose plane base bullet like the Meister Cast @ 1500 FPS http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productnumber=443079 SO both loads are hardcast. Total weight and muzzle energy advantage goes to the 12 gauge slug but sectional density of projectile advantage goes to the .45/70 bullet.

The Brenekke slug is for a rifled barrel so hopefully your tracker is rifled. Also, Brenekke says this slug is for deer sized game, doesn't mention bear in the copy I read. With the exception of some of the Dixie Slug offerings, I have found most 12 slugs to be "soft". I think the 45-70 would offer you the best chance of good penetration and it also should provide you more range & better accuracy. If you are a handloader then you also have the ability to increase the velocity of the 45 70 projectile a little bit.

BB

Squib · « **Reply #9 on:** July 10, 2011, 06:51:13 AM »

you'll probably need to alter your chamber to max out the 500gr bullets too. me, I just push them deeper into the case and keep the powder charge down. no problems for me with varget, I don't know that a lot of powders would let you get away with that though. I think I had the load going with 40grs and it was beating up my primers a bit, beating my face up a bit too- then I dropped it down to 37.1grs and it's a push not a violent jolt anymore. this is my accuracy load, kneeling at 30yds I can consistently hit the stripes on a bowling pin (7 shots in a row I think is what I did on my last test shoot). that's a lot of moving around to load a handi and hitting a target that's been thrown around every shot, freehand/kneeling... I didn't take my sweet time either, I just snapped it up and shot. try that with a 500gr or more projectile from a shotgun and see how your face and form suffer, see what kind of accuracy you get.

I can go look up all that info if you want me to pm it to you, let me know.

cjrjck · « **Reply #10 on:** July 10, 2011, 07:08:14 AM »

Traditional shotgun slugs were purposely made soft to ensure they will pass through whatever choke was on the shotgun. Saboted slugs do not have that requirement so they can be much tougher. Of course, you can roll your own shells and use a hard cast saboted bullet that can be made to do just about anything you can ask of a slug.

I handloaded a 420 grain LBT LFN hardcast bullet in my 45/70 Handi at about 1700 fps. Nothing will stop that bullet once it gets going. A similar constructed bullet in a 12 gauge sabot round would do the same.

mannyrock · « **Reply #11 on:** July 10, 2011, 07:21:03 AM »

OK, I don't understand all of the mystery and hand-loading ying-yang I'm seeing here.

Can 't you just go to the website of Buffalo Bore or Garrett, and find a super-loaded .45-70 round, with a high quality premium deep penetration bullet, that is specifically designed for big bear?

Why does everybody try to re-invent the wheel?

One thing is for sure, with the route you are taking (handloading) the first shot on a grizzly at close range will be your first "experimental" shot on such an animal, and may be your last. Why risk it?

Also, I'm gonna bet that if you go to a few gunshows, you will find a beat-up Marin lever action in .45-70 or .444 Marlin, for about $350. Why in the world would you risk getting your face ripped off for a lousy $350? If you go this route, then when you return from your trip, you can always sell it, and get most of your money back.

Squib · « **Reply #12 on:** July 10, 2011, 07:39:45 AM »

so you're advocating going in ignorant rather than understanding exactly what ammo you have in your gun OTHER THAN MANUFACTURER AND CARTRIDGE!!!

are you serious? you said you don't understand hand-loading, you are correct. you then tell him to just go find some beat up used gun FROM A GUNSHOW that he's not vested in either, and to use that to go risk his life bear hunting.
REALLY!

Dinny · « **Reply #13 on:** July 10, 2011, 08:13:41 AM »

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=35

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/4570.html

http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html

Here are three of the best in the dangerous game business.

Thanks, Dinny

S.E.Ak · « **Reply #14 on:** July 10, 2011, 08:26:28 AM »

I use my Tracker with the Buckhammer slug.If you are wadeing in a stream though a shotgun will get wet and maybe real wet so I have my Alaskan. I have never been charged or killed by a bear while fishing but have gave one my catch a time or two,just common sense

mannyrock · « **Reply #15 on:** July 10, 2011, 10:00:22 AM »

Squib,

Sorry, but I see it in the opposite way. Going in with a self-invented .45-70 load that you think will be good on a grizzly is going in ignorant. Going in with a top of the line load from a well respected manufacturer, that has been tested on large animals many times before, is going in smart.

And, going in with a $175 single shot bargain basement rifle (and there is no doubt that that is exactly what a Handi rifle is), when you could go in with a highly reputable and reliable 5 shot Marlin, is not going in smart. I don't see the concept that he couldn't learn to shoot the Marlin extremely well in a very short period of time.

But, I respect your thoughts on this.

Regards, Mannyrock

jlwilliams · « **Reply #16 on:** July 10, 2011, 10:11:51 AM »

I don't understand why the question is framed to limit you to two choises of single shot for 'bear medicine'. What's the point of that? If I was to go all the way to grizzly country to go fishing (that's a little ways from here) I'd make a point to bring something for protection and it would be a repeater. I thought Mannyrock's suggestion of the used guide gun made sense.

That said, I'd think the 45-70 would have an edge penetration wise over the 12 slug. If I was bird hunting rather than fishing, and therefor had the shotgun anyway, then I'd just bring some slugs. If we're talking strictly within the limits of the original post then 45-70 it is.

mannyrock · « **Reply #17 on:** July 10, 2011, 10:20:08 AM »

I've read several articles over the years where hunters have killed both Grizzly and even Cape Buffalo in short order with the Buffalo Bore rounds in .45-70. Take a look at their 500 grain load. That's what these rounds were invented and tested for.

Yes, these rounds are very expensive (upwards of $75 a box). But I use to handload, and I know that you are going to spend at least that much in trying to invent your own load. Again, what's the point.

The problem posed here is how to stop a dangerous grizzly with one single shot. Trying to roll your own, just for the heck of it, seems very dangerous to me.

Best, Mannyrock

cjrjck · « **Reply #18 on:** July 10, 2011, 01:35:48 PM »

I think if you polled those on this site who reload and ask them if they trust their reloads more than factory loads, most if not all will say yes. I know I do. I am not saying that factory ammo is bad, not at all, I just know that my reloads are better.

Dinny · « **Reply #19 on:** July 10, 2011, 01:56:19 PM »

Without fully knowing, I assume he is using something he already has for a weapon. I like the idea of a lightweight back-up since it won't be used unless absolutely necessary. Not only that, but if he's in one of those situations, is he really gonna get multiple shots off before the situation is resolved? JMNSHO, place one accurate shot with a fast-moving hard bullet or slug and most of your troubles will be over.

Thanks, Dinny

S.E.Ak · « **Reply #20 on:** July 10, 2011, 04:23:06 PM »

Except my Ruger #3 all my rifles are H&R singles of course I know nothing of real life up here.Sourdough is another Alaskan with-out a clue I must assume

bikerbeans · « **Reply #21 on:** July 10, 2011, 04:57:04 PM »

Quote from: S.E.Ak on July 10, 2011, 08:26:28 AM

I have never been charged or killed by a bear while fishing

S.E.Ak,

It is good to know that you are not dead. My wife frowns upon me communicating with the dead.

BB

Dinny · « **Reply #22 on:** July 10, 2011, 04:58:33 PM »

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought that too...

Thanks, Dinny

Squib · « **Reply #23 on:** July 10, 2011, 05:00:35 PM »

if you have a gold plated "drilling" with engraved wildlife scenes, valued at 20,000 dollars, you can kill an elephant with calibers not much stronger than a stout 45-70 (nevermind that elephants have a soft spot on their heads the size of a basketball, plus HUGE eyes, which is why elephants get brain shot) BUT if you just use a stout 45-70 load a bear will get you... also bison were killed by weaker loads from much weaker and less accurate guns. I bet the triggers on pioneers' guns sucked too!

the bear takes a hit and keeps charging, faster than you can lever a new round into the chamber, but when he's on you he sees "marlin" on your gun (yes, he can read) and knows that he done for, rolls over, dead.

personally I prefer to be sporting and use inferior weapons like handis though... the loads they handle aren't inferior to a marlin lever!!!!! leverguns get frame stretch like revolvers from too many heavy loads, handis don't unless they are maxed #1, and I've not had that issue yet using #1 loads (depending on source anyways).

Content edited by Tim

Squib · « **Reply #24 on:** July 10, 2011, 05:02:39 PM »

also, some guys bow hunt bears. I think that's retarded, but I'm sure they think guys using single shot rifles are cheaters!

OldSchoolRanger · « **Reply #25 on:** July 10, 2011, 05:58:35 PM »

Quote from: Dinny on July 10, 2011, 01:56:19 PM

Without fully knowing, I assume he is using something he already has for a weapon. I like the idea of a lightweight back-up since it won't be used unless absolutely necessary. Not only that, but if he's in one of those situations, is he really gonna get multiple shots off before the situation is resolved? JMNSHO, place one accurate shot with a fast-moving hard bullet or slug and most of your troubles will be over.

Thanks, Dinny

I have to agree with mannyrock, having the second shot available if needed, without fumbling with a loose cartridge, is a plus in my book.

This statement doesn't mean that people with experience and a calm set of nerves, wouldn't be able to reload and fire a Handi quickly and accurately, but only Ganjiro, knows if he could successfully handle a situation like that.

That said, use the rifle or shotgun which you can more accurately shoot while under pressure.

My choice if limited to the two calibers/gauges mention would be for the 45-70 500gr bullet, due to its construction. I feel the slug would lose more mass, and thus less penetration, if it hit bone, due to its soft lead construction.

I've reloaded for years, and I've had one or two misfires with my reloads, but then I've even seen factory Premium loads go "click" instead of boom. Luckily the misfires were at a range while I was testing ammo.

bilmac · « **Reply #26 on:** July 10, 2011, 06:05:47 PM »

I worked in the Alaska bush for several years so gave the question some serious thought. I ended up with a Marlin 45-70 that I rebuilt into a kind of guide gun before Marlin started making their own guide guns.

I shot a 385 gr bullet cast very hard. Penetration is what I wanted and it did penetrate. I never had to shoot a bear, but we were always trying to find trees big enough to stop that bullet. The biggest birch trees we could find were about 12" dia, and the bullet whistled right through those. We had to line up two of them to make the bullet quit.

Shooting to stop something coming after you is different than making broadside shots on game you hunt. To me perfect performance would be for the bullet to go in beside his head, break some shoulder bones and then keep right on going only to stop in his tail.

schuetzen · « **Reply #27 on:** July 10, 2011, 06:11:36 PM »

Quote from: Ganjiro on July 09, 2011, 11:07:45 PM

I was thinking the Brenekke Gold Magnum loads which are hardcast http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/37894-1.html
versus a 500 grain hardcast flatnose plane base bullet like the Meister Cast @ 1500 FPS http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productnumber=443079 SO both loads are hardcast. Total weight and muzzle energy advantage goes to the 12 gauge slug but sectional density of projectile advantage goes to the .45/70 bullet.

There is steel slug ammo that is produced by a company in Latvia where they have a tradition of hunting bear with shotgun slugs.

DDupleks - steel slug ammunition advantages
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsfMgRSwS5I

Bear hunting with DDupleks Hexolit 32
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kiwq95oT0zQ

Other videos on their products
http://www.youtube.com/DDupleks

Dinny · « **Reply #28 on:** July 10, 2011, 06:32:05 PM »

Schuetzen,
Where can we buy some of those steel slugs? I hope they're soft enough for our American Made barrels...

Thanks, Dinny

schuetzen · « **Reply #29 on:** July 10, 2011, 06:48:21 PM »

Quote from: Dinny on July 10, 2011, 06:32:05 PM

Schuetzen,
Where can we buy some of those steel slugs? I hope they're soft enough for our American Made barrels...

Thanks, Dinny

I've seen it available at various well known on-line suppliers (MidwayUSA seems to have many of them available.) I've seen better prices on gunbroker.com.

I've been keeping my eye open at gun shows for the better part of a year and I just started seeing some now. I picked up a box of Hexolit32 and Dupo28. I cut open one of the Hexolit32. The steel slug is embedded with a molded polymer ring that rides the smoothbore so there is no steel on steel contact. There is a video of someone taking apart a Hexolit32...

Hexolit32 12 Ga. Expanding Shotgun Slug Test
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDAEk9K7UaU